AWC - Serious Payment Processing issues ?

[Essexal]

Not sure if this has been posted before, but if it has please reallocate.

I have made five purchases this year via the same payment method, which initially results (as expected) in a "pending" transaction on my payment card.

When Avanti "complete" the transaction (ie claim the payment) within a couple of working days on the relevant payment card, I am still left with a pending transaction for another five working days before it "drops off" my pending payments.

I have raised this to the highest level at AWC (Exec complaints) and I was informed last week that on one of my payments earlier this year, the payment process "timed out" during processing thus leaving a pending payment on my payment card until it automatically drops off after seven (calendar) days from the transaction payment date.

I have just sent a further email to AWC exec complaints today because i have two transactions made within the last week totally over £138 that have been claimed by AWC, and which I can see have been claimed, but are also still showing as pending on my card account, thus reducing temporarily reducing the amount of available credit I have on my card for around a week before the pending item drops off.

Has anyone else experienced this issue? I have no problems with payment processing with any other TOC throughout the UK, only AWC, and my card issuer has confirmed in writing it is the way AWC are processing their payments.

 

[IanMac]

If that happened to me I would never again pay them a penny. That's the only language that badly behaved businesses understand, and luckily there are other TOCs and agencies that are quite acceptable alternatives.

 

[125Spotter]

I can’t comment on Avanti specifically, but I’ve previously worked on and implemented the issuer (bank) side of card payment acquiring systems. In my case this was mostly talking to Mastercard, so the terminology I’ll use relates to them, although Visa is conceptually similar.

The logic for matching an “authorisation” at the time of purchase to a “presentment” when they claim the cash can be very complex, especially where card payments have multiple interactions on them before the final payment is collected (think: partial refunds, adjustments such as tips applied later, pre-authorisations of small amounts which are later uplifted when the final amount is confirmed). If the merchant gets the precise sequence of messages wrong that they send to your bank, or they fail to include certain pieces of data that enables the presentment to be reconciled to the earlier authorisation, the behaviour you describe of a second debit being made is very common and entirely possible.

The first authorisation must eventually drop off if no presentment is made against it, but this can take some time, and is generally down to the card scheme – your bank or card issuer cannot help as they do not know if a later presentment will arrive to claim the funds.

Your bank or card issuer must also correctly process the sequence of scheme messages successfully. And there are so many different styles, formats and edge cases that this can be especially hard.

However, it is unusual to encounter this problem for a simple case of an auth which is later presented for the same amount, with no other complexity in the transaction, but not unheard of. I once had a case of thousands of customers being temporarily charged twice similarly to you because a well-known merchant suddenly decided to drop characters from the beginning of the 6 digit “auth code” that’s typically printed on a card receipt. This is one of the pieces of data commonly used to match transactions.

All this is to say two things:

1. that the system is highly complex, and trying to ascertain precisely where in the chain the fault lies can be impossible – even when I could speak directly to technical people at the card scheme. It may be AWC, it may be a third-party merchant services provider they use (I don’t know who processes their payments or whether it’s outsourced), and it could be your card issuer having problems with the specific sequence of messages if AWC sends an unusual sequence that isn’t out of spec, but nevertheless the card issuer’s system doesn’t expect it.
2. The explanation that the payment “timed out” is highly irregular, and I don’t think this is very helpful. It sounds like they are just describing the process by which an unclaimed payment is eventually released after some days. Matching should be deterministic provided they send the correct data in the presentment or settlement request – almost all other retailers manage this successfully.

Unfortunately, the chances of the correct people with the requisite knowledge to solve this all being in the same room are close to zero.

 

[speedy1]

Are you purchasing from Avanti because of Club Avanti? The price you pay, I guess, if so.

 

[gray1404]

Does the Avanti West Coast website accept PayPal or Google Pay? You might be better paying with one of these methods if possible rather than answering your card details directly into the site.

It does sound like you are running your credit card very close to the limit though and that is not good for your credit rating. I ask this as you are getting concerned about relatively small amount being used temporarily towards your credit limit.

 

[Crithylum]

This isn’t the first recent thread about Avanti payment issues https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...he-services-that-deliver-your-tickets.306299/

 

[Swedenorer]

The same thing happened to me every time I used a Visa Debit card to pay an Accor Group hotel bill in France. This was the only time it happened. it was always I think five days. and I simply assumed it was something to do with their systems.

 

[Essexal]

Thanks everyone for your replies, really appreciated.

@125Spotter - The card issuer (Cap1) has confirmed in writing that the issue is not at their end, and from what they can see, the retailer is not completing the payment process correctly.
@speedy1 - I always try to use the TOC that I am travelling with (Ie LNER for Edinburgh to Kings X) as it makes it much easier when delay repay is claimed. I do not have this issue with any of TOC when I purchase tickets.
@gray1404 - Thanks for the suggestions, I will have a look next time I purchase, although both of those I would suspect are based on debit cards, and I specifically paid on credit card to allow that small additional window to pay the ticket off in full. Also nowhere near close to my limit, it just shouldn't be happening (imo).
@Crithylum - Thanks for the heads up on the other link, I will take a look.
@Swedenorer - Sounds like you had the same issue as I've currently got. You purchased your room at Accor, cost sits as pending item on your card. Accor process this two days later and that should mean the transaction is complete. BUT it sounds like because there was a system issue with Accor, the "pending" remained on your card, (if a credit card, reducing you available limit) until it automatically dropped off after a further five days. Note, retailers have seven calendar days from point of purchase to complete the (pending) transaction on your payment card. After this time the "pending" item expires, the retailer can no longer claim it, and the funds gets released back onto your card. Hope that helps.

 

[Haywain]

I specifically paid on credit card to allow that small additional window to pay the ticket off in full. Also nowhere near close to my limit, it just shouldn't be happening (imo).

If you are not close to your limit, and not likely to be, it's really nothing to worry about. It doesn't cost you anything and doesn't, apparently, inconvenience you other than the time and effort you spend chasing up something that is so unimportant.

 

[Gareth1990]

I can’t comment on Avanti specifically, but I’ve previously worked on and implemented the issuer (bank) side of card payment acquiring systems. In my case this was mostly talking to Mastercard, so the terminology I’ll use relates to them, although Visa is conceptually similar.

The logic for matching an “authorisation” at the time of purchase to a “presentment” when they claim the cash can be very complex, especially where card payments have multiple interactions on them before the final payment is collected (think: partial refunds, adjustments such as tips applied later, pre-authorisations of small amounts which are later uplifted when the final amount is confirmed). If the merchant gets the precise sequence of messages wrong that they send to your bank, or they fail to include certain pieces of data that enables the presentment to be reconciled to the earlier authorisation, the behaviour you describe of a second debit being made is very common and entirely possible.

The first authorisation must eventually drop off if no presentment is made against it, but this can take some time, and is generally down to the card scheme – your bank or card issuer cannot help as they do not know if a later presentment will arrive to claim the funds.

Your bank or card issuer must also correctly process the sequence of scheme messages successfully. And there are so many different styles, formats and edge cases that this can be especially hard.

However, it is unusual to encounter this problem for a simple case of an auth which is later presented for the same amount, with no other complexity in the transaction, but not unheard of. I once had a case of thousands of customers being temporarily charged twice similarly to you because a well-known merchant suddenly decided to drop characters from the beginning of the 6 digit “auth code” that’s typically printed on a card receipt. This is one of the pieces of data commonly used to match transactions.

All this is to say two things:

1. that the system is highly complex, and trying to ascertain precisely where in the chain the fault lies can be impossible – even when I could speak directly to technical people at the card scheme. It may be AWC, it may be a third-party merchant services provider they use (I don’t know who processes their payments or whether it’s outsourced), and it could be your card issuer having problems with the specific sequence of messages if AWC sends an unusual sequence that isn’t out of spec, but nevertheless the card issuer’s system doesn’t expect it.
2. The explanation that the payment “timed out” is highly irregular, and I don’t think this is very helpful. It sounds like they are just describing the process by which an unclaimed payment is eventually released after some days. Matching should be deterministic provided they send the correct data in the presentment or settlement request – almost all other retailers manage this successfully.

Unfortunately, the chances of the correct people with the requisite knowledge to solve this all being in the same room are close to zero.

Really authorisations shouldn’t be placed until successful contact has been made with the other bank/payment provider, it would solve so many of these problems

 

[Watershed]

@speedy1 - I always try to use the TOC that I am travelling with (Ie LNER for Edinburgh to Kings X) as it makes it much easier when delay repay is claimed. I do not have this issue with any of TOC when I purchase tickets.

The only time that the retailer used makes any difference, is if you are making a journey on the same operator as the website you are using, and you are buying an Advance ticket and wish to use Auto Delay Repay. Some operators limit this to direct (no change) journeys too.

 

[Amaranthe]

@Essexal I've had this exact situation the last few times booking with Avanti and like you it's a Capital One credit card I've used. I only use them for booking qualifying Club Avanti journeys because of this.

 

[gray1404]

Thanks everyone for your replies, really appreciated.

@125Spotter - The card issuer (Cap1) has confirmed in writing that the issue is not at their end, and from what they can see, the retailer is not completing the payment process correctly.
@speedy1 - I always try to use the TOC that I am travelling with (Ie LNER for Edinburgh to Kings X) as it makes it much easier when delay repay is claimed. I do not have this issue with any of TOC when I purchase tickets.
@gray1404 - Thanks for the suggestions, I will have a look next time I purchase, although both of those I would suspect are based on debit cards, and I specifically paid on credit card to allow that small additional window to pay the ticket off in full. Also nowhere near close to my limit, it just shouldn't be happening (imo).
@Crithylum - Thanks for the heads up on the other link, I will take a look.
@Swedenorer - Sounds like you had the same issue as I've currently got. You purchased your room at Accor, cost sits as pending item on your card. Accor process this two days later and that should mean the transaction is complete. BUT it sounds like because there was a system issue with Accor, the "pending" remained on your card, (if a credit card, reducing you available limit) until it automatically dropped off after a further five days. Note, retailers have seven calendar days from point of purchase to complete the (pending) transaction on your payment card. After this time the "pending" item expires, the retailer can no longer claim it, and the funds gets released back onto your card. Hope that helps.

To be honest if it's not close to your limit then it shouldn't be bothering you at all given that the authorization's drop off automatically.

PayPal and Google pay are not exclusively for debit cards. I use my credit cards on both of these methods.

 

[paninaro]

The explanation that the payment “timed out” is highly irregular, and I don’t think this is very helpful.

Isn't this referring to a situation where Avanti make an auth request, which is successfully processed by the payment gateway but for whatever reason a meaningful response is not received by Avanti within the time allowed for an auth call ("timed out"). So Avanti don't know if it succeeded or failed, so have to make a second auth request. This time the response is received within the alloted time, but there's still an outstanding auth request at the payment gateway that ideally would be cancelled by another call from Avant or, as a backup, left to expire.This latter shows the same symptoms the OP is seeing.

Disclaimer: I used to work in transit ticket payments and the majority of our payment issues were this. Ideally the payment gateway gives Avanti the means to cancel these orphaned auths and ideally Avanti would run a reconcilliation process to do that, but I wouldn't stake my life on either.

 

[yorkie]

Not sure if this has been posted before, but if it has please reallocate.

I have made five purchases this year via the same payment method, which initially results (as expected) in a "pending" transaction on my payment card.

When Avanti "complete" the transaction (ie claim the payment) within a couple of working days on the relevant payment card, I am still left with a pending transaction for another five working days before it "drops off" my pending payments.

I have raised this to the highest level at AWC (Exec complaints) and I was informed last week that on one of my payments earlier this year, the payment process "timed out" during processing thus leaving a pending payment on my payment card until it automatically drops off after seven (calendar) days from the transaction payment date.

I have just sent a further email to AWC exec complaints today because i have two transactions made within the last week totally over £138 that have been claimed by AWC, and which I can see have been claimed, but are also still showing as pending on my card account, thus reducing temporarily reducing the amount of available credit I have on my card for around a week before the pending item drops off.

Has anyone else experienced this issue? I have no problems with payment processing with any other TOC throughout the UK, only AWC, and my card issuer has confirmed in writing it is the way AWC are processing their payments.

Rest assured it's not just you.

Yes, I have seen several posts of this nature from Avanti on this forum.

The only solution is to use a site other than Avanti (e.g. the forum ticketing site won't do this, and if it did, help would be easily reached!)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Today at 14:47 ==

If that happened to me I would never again pay them a penny. That's the only language that badly behaved businesses understand, and luckily there are other TOCs and agencies that are quite acceptable alternatives.

It's surprising how many people use the Avanti site, given how appallingly bad it is, however my understanding is that the reason is:

Are you purchasing from Avanti because of Club Avanti? The price you pay, I guess, if so.

And yes, anyone who wants to benefit from Club Avanti has to put up with the many problems this site has. Whether it's worth all the hassle for the perks is up to each individual to decide, but I am glad I don't bother with it!

I will admit to using the Avanti site for one reason only, and that is because I am eligible for a specific discount, which is rarely even available and only works if the entire journey is on Avanti. Other than maybe one booking per 6 months or so, I avoid the site!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Today at 14:51 ==

@speedy1 - I always try to use the TOC that I am travelling with (Ie LNER for Edinburgh to Kings X) as it makes it much easier when delay repay is claimed. I do not have this issue with any of TOC when I purchase tickets.

Using multiple retailers makes it harder to keep track of all your journeys. It doesn't usually make DR claims easier. Admittedly some operators do have so-called "one click DR" options, but they really aren't that brilliant compared to making a manual claim and often fail to work.

It all falls down when making any journey that involves multiple operators, which many people do. It's much better to buy your entire journey in one transaction (ideally obtaining a through itinerary; no need for through tickets, but a through itinerary has many potential benefits if anything goes wrong), or if you must do multiple transactions, then use the same retailer.

If you mix and match retailers, and one train in your journey is cancelled or delayed and you want to change travel plans, the other retailers for unaffected legs may not recongise this, which can lead to all sorts of hassle.

It can also be wise to use a retailer that has knowledgeable UK-based staff, rather than outsourced individuals who don't know much about how National Rail ticketing actually works.