What if the Central Line branches to Hainault, Epping and Ongar had remained part of BR?

[AY1975]

Following on from the existing thread on what might have happened under Beeching if the Metropolitan Line to Amersham and Chesham had been part of BR at https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...and-beeching-what-might-have-happened.307125/ I thought how about a thread on what might have happened if the London Underground had never taken over the eastern part of the Central Line (or if the Central Line had only been extended, say, as far as Stratford) and the lines to Hainault, Epping and Ongar had remained part of BR?

I guess Beeching might have closed the Epping to Ongar branch, although I believe that part of the reason that it lasted as long as it did was the existence of a secret bunker at Ongar. I suppose that might still have saved it.

 

[Dr Hoo]

The challenge of keeping the lines would have bitten far sooner than the 1960s, with the Shenfield electrification coming in stream and taking all the capacity (along with the West Anglia lines). Given that it was all under the British Transport Commission anyway, they would have pressed ahead with transfer to the Underground.

 

[30907]

The challenge of keeping the lines would have bitten far sooner than the 1960s, with the Shenfield electrification coming in stream and taking all the capacity (along with the West Anglia lines). Given that it was all under the British Transport Commission anyway, they would have pressed ahead with transfer to the Underground.

Or, remembering that deep-level full-size tubes were being considered for London post WW2, we might have ended up with something like Crossrail from Epping etc.
Though the decision would have been taken in the mid 30s not the late 40s so maybe not - but as a one-time short-term denizen of Buckhurst Hill, it would have been an improvement

 

[Mr. SW]

Hainault-Newbury Park-Ilford would have closed before Beeching as it would have interfered with the Shenfield electrification leaving Woodford-Hainault as a stub. I doubt that even that stub would have lasted long. I suspect LPTB and LNER/BR(ER) realised this was a possibility, and hugely unpopular, hence the Leytonstone - Newbury Park link. Beeching would never have a look in.

 

[35B]

Surely the whole point was to relieve capacity at Liverpool Street?

In the OP’s scenario, I suspect that the line through Leyton would have lasted, but the southern approach would have gone quickly because of its interference with the depot at Ilford

 

[etr221]

Hainault-Newbury Park-Ilford would have closed before Beeching as it would have interfered with the Shenfield electrification leaving Woodford-Hainault as a stub. I doubt that even that stub would have lasted long. I suspect LPTB and LNER/BR(ER) realised this was a possibility, and hugely unpopular, hence the Leytonstone - Newbury Park link. Beeching would never have a look in.

My understanding is that the LPTB Central Line East and LNER Liverpool St-Shenfield electrification schemes were planned together as part of the late 1930s New Works Programme; and so, had they not happened alongside each other as they did, some other scheme to provide for Liverpool St-Stratford-Shenfield/Hainault/Woodford/Epping would eventually have become necessary ... most likely a combined electrification, etc. of all the GE suburban lines, leading, eventually, to having Elizabeth line trains not only to Shenfield but also Epping (if not Ongar) and the Hainault loop. Or something completely different - who knows?

 

[thesignalman]

My understanding is that the LPTB Central Line East and LNER Liverpool St-Shenfield electrification schemes were planned together as part of the late 1930s New Works Programme; and so, had they not happened alongside each other as they did, some other scheme to provide for Liverpool St-Stratford-Shenfield/Hainault/Woodford/Epping would eventually have become necessary ... most likely a combined electrification, etc. of all the GE suburban lines, leading, eventually, to having Elizabeth line trains not only to Shenfield but also Epping (if not Ongar) and the Hainault loop. Or something completely different - who knows?

The lines would have been well-used and successful had not the green belt been introduced. This confounded other schemes too.

John

 

[Taunton]

The lines would have been well-used and successful had not the green belt been introduced. This confounded other schemes too.

John

I don't know about that. It was commonly felt by the Underground that the line was too long at the extremities, and the journey time from say Ruislip Gardens to Bank was too tedious. Extending out to Denham, which the land was bought for in 1939, would just be worse.

Interesting what would have been done if the GER, in Victorian times, had been extended from Ongar to Chelmsford.

 

[35B]

This takes us back to the issues around GE suburban services at the time. The "Jazz Service" out of Liverpool Street was at the limits of what could be done with steam, and couldn't meet demand. Electrification helped (no need for dead space for locos), but moving some of the traffic off the main line was going to be necessary anyway (a common thread of the 1935 New Works Programme - see also the Northern Heights and Ruislip extension).

Given that Hainault was closed to passengers for 20-odd years due to lack of demand, and the triangle junction to the main line is now under the site of Ilford EMUD, I suspect that BR would have run the line as a London facing branch, closing the southern side of the loop. Once the Green Belt was introduced, I suspect that the Epping-Ongar section would have been on the chopping block, and possibly some of the line further back to London. But, given the various underground projects aimed at Epping Forest over the decades, I also suspect a transfer with linking tube tunnel would have been considered to support the significant population growth in the area

 

[MarlowDonkey]

It was commonly felt by the Underground that the line was too long at the extremities, and the journey time from say Ruislip Gardens to Bank was too tedious.

If they also electrified the parallel main line, it could have been possible to run semi fast services. Had four rail electrification been installed there could have been a case for extending it to Paddington and Marylebone. Perhaps even in the 1930s segregating LPTB and national rail infrastructure was seen as desirable,

 

[Bevan Price]

I suspect that the only part to remain might have been through Leytonstone as far as Woodford & Loughton, which would have been electrified, but Liverpool Street would have struggled tp provide enough capacity from frequent suburban services.
Even now, the built up area of Epping only has a population of under 11,000, and back in the Marples-Beeching era, it might have been considered too small to sustain a railway service. .