Missed last LNWR direct train from Crewe to London Euston - do I have to take LNWR indirect services or can I take a direct train from Avanti?

[A Fellow Human]

Hello all,
I was planning to take the train from Manchester Piccadilly to Hither Green. To do this, I bought advance tickets for the 19:06 Northern from Manchester Piccadilly to Crewe, and 20:13 LNWR from Crewe to London Euston, and planned to cover London Euston to Hither Green via Oyster PAYG.

Unfortunately, the Northern train was delayed by 27 minutes, meaning I missed the 20:13 LNWR train at Crewe. There are also no more direct trains by LNWR from Crewe to London Euston.

I was hoping to take the Avanti West Coast direct service from Crewe to London Euston. However, an Avanti staff member at Crewe told me that the ticket would be invalid on Avanti services, and told me to take the 21:13 LNWR from Crewe to Northampton and 23:28 LNWR from Northampton to London Euston.
I just wanted to ask here for a second opinion, because this itinerary would mean a 145 minute total delay to London Euston. By the time I reach Euston via LNWR services there would be no more trains to Hither Green, so I would have to book a taxi. Furthermore, there are still Avanti trains direct from Crewe to London Euston, and I'm not sure if the recent government policy on train cancellations applies here. Am I definitely not allowed to take Avanti trains?

 

[Watershed]

Hello all,
I was planning to take the train from Manchester Piccadilly to London Euston. To do this, I bought advance tickets for the 19:06 Northern from Manchester Piccadilly to Crewe, and 20:13 LNWR from Crewe to London Euston.
Unfortunately, the Northern train was delayed by 27 minutes, meaning I missed the 20:13 LNWR train at Crewe. There are also no more direct trains by LNWR from Crewe to London Euston.
I was hoping to take the Avanti West Coast direct service from Crewe to London Euston. However, an Avanti staff member at Crewe told me that the ticket would be invalid on Avanti services, and told me to take the 21:13 LNWR from Crewe to Northampton and 23:28 LNWR from Northampton to London Euston.
I just wanted to ask here for a second opinion, because this itinerary would mean a 145 minute total delay, and there are still Avanti trains direct from Crewe to London Euston, and I'm not sure if the recent government policy on train cancellations applies here. Am I definitely not allowed to take Avanti trains?

Unfortunately the new automatic ticket acceptance policy only covers trains that are cancelled, not delayed trains or missed connections. It is a huge omission in the policy in my eyes.

As the anticipated delay in arriving at Euston by waiting for the next train would be more than an hour, you're entitled to require Northern (who caused this) to re-route you to your destination at the earliest opportunity. This is under Article 16 of the Passenger Rights and Obligations Regulation (PRO).

In practice that means they need to arrange ticket acceptance on Avanti as they provide your next journey opportunity, or endorse your ticket or provide you with a new ticket valid on Avanti.

I would suggest contacting Northern's customer services, e.g. on social media, and making the above re-routing request. However from experience, most TOCs basically refuse to honour this obligation and pretend it doesn't exist. So in practice you will need to buy a new ticket and then claim back the cost from Northern afterwards. Keep any evidence of their refusal to re-route you (hence why it's best to do this in writing).

The right to re-routing can only be exercised against the TOC 'at fault' so you can't simply board the next Avanti service with your existing ticket unfortunately.

You can claim Delay Repay from Northern based on all of the tickets you (intended to) use. It is worth including the Oyster fare you pay to get to Hither Green although since Northern don't run in the London area, they might not have a facility to upload Oyster statements on their Delay Repay portal so you will probably have to include that as part of your claim for the cost of the new Avanti ticket with their customer services after the journey.

 

[py_megapixel]

You can also simply find the guard on the Avanti train when it arrives (not the station staff), explain your situation, and ask to travel on their train.

I would expect a guard who values good customer service to be sympathetic and allow you to travel as it's clearly daft to delay a passenger by almost 2½ hours when there is a perfectly good train going to their destination sooner.

Unfortunately there are some guards who will in fact deny you travel in this situation (if anyone could explain why this happens I would be interested as it's pretty ridiculous) and in that case you are screwed and will have to put up with the delay, or try and get Northern to refund your Avanti ticket as described above. It really shouldn't be this way, but it is.

 

[A Fellow Human]

Right, thank you for your advice. I contacted Northern via Whatsapp and unfortunately the person on the other end said they were unable to help with rerouting.

I have chosen to take the LNWR service from Crewe to Northampton, and am planning to get off at Rugby and take the Avanti train from Rugby to London Euston. To be clear, should I still be able to claim back 100% of the cost of both the LNWR and Avanti tickets from Northern (even though I did end up breaking journey on my Advance LNWR ticket)?

You can also simply find the guard on the Avanti train when it arrives (not the station staff), explain your situation, and ask to travel on their train.

I would expect a guard who values good customer service to be sympathetic and allow you to travel as it's clearly daft to delay a passenger by almost 2½ hours when there is a perfectly good train going to their destination sooner.

Unfortunately there are some guards who will in fact deny you travel in this situation (if anyone could explain why this happens I would be interested as it's pretty ridiculous) and in that case you are screwed and will have to put up with the delay, or try and get Northern to refund your Avanti ticket as described above. It really shouldn't be this way, but it is.

I asked two Avanti guards at Crewe and both told me that I would not be able to use my LNWR ticket.

 

[Gareth1990]

I’ll be honest at this time of night I’d just get on the Avanti train no matter what the guard says, and if they try and make me purchase a new ticket refuse

 

[323235]

I wouldn’t personally just get on the avanti train without authorisation from the train manager and refuse a new ticket if they ask you to buy a new one. That could end up with BTP involvement or being reported for prosecution.

Either stay on the LNWR train to Euston or ask the Avanti train manager before boarding and if they say no, say you need to buy a new ticket and jump on.

Argue it all with the appropriate TOC customer relations later.

Did you actually ask the train manager at Crewe? They’re the one that really matters.

 

[yorkie]

Right, thank you for your advice. I contacted Northern via Whatsapp and unfortunately the person on the other end said they were unable to help with rerouting.

I believe this is a breach of the PRO, however given Northern's reputation, I'd be more surprised if they complied with it!

I have chosen to take the LNWR service from Crewe to Northampton, and am planning to get off at Rugby and take the Avanti train from Rugby to London Euston. To be clear, should I still be able to claim back 100% of the cost of both the LNWR and Avanti tickets from Northern

Yes

(even though I did end up breaking journey on my Advance LNWR ticket)?

Not sure what you mean by "breaking journey"; a break of journey is defined as leaving station premises for a reason other than to change trains (e.g. Birmingham New Street to Moor Street) and isn't permitted if you have an Advance ticket. But I don't think that's what you are doing here.

I asked two Avanti guards at Crewe and both told me that I would not be able to use my LNWR ticket.

Unfortunately there are some really rotten Avanti guards around, so sadly this doesn't surprise me either.

If your final destination is London Euston and there are trains tonight that get you there, then unfortunately Avanti can't be compelled to convey you. However, if you are forced to buy a ticket, then arguably Northern should be reimbursing the ticket, given they should have re-routed you under the PRO.

Was this bought as a through journey from the forum's ticketing site? If so, although I am really busy at the moment, I would be happy to help you with proofreading of any letters you wish to send to the relevant train companies, if you send me a direct conversation message.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Sep 2026 ==

I’ll be honest at this time of night I’d just get on the Avanti train no matter what the guard says, and if they try and make me purchase a new ticket refuse

I'm not sure if I'd go that far, but to be honest from Rugby to London at this late hour, the chances of a ticket check on Avanti are likely to be extremely slim.

 

[tumbledown]

I contacted Northern via Whatsapp and unfortunately the person on the other end said they were unable to help with rerouting.

What would the actual process be for the Customer Service rep to arrange it?
Personally I deplore people saying "I can't do that" when the honest answer is "I won't do that".

 

[A Fellow Human]

I ended up buying an Avanti ticket from Rugby to Euston because I really didn't want to come back any later or deal with the hassle of taking a taxi back.

Not sure what you mean by "breaking journey"; a break of journey is defined as leaving station premises for a reason other than to change trains (e.g. Birmingham New Street to Moor Street) and isn't permitted if you have an Advance ticket. But I don't think that's what you are doing here.

As in I only traveled from Crewe to Rugby on my Advance Ticket even though it says Crewe to London Euston. Good to know that's allowed as I didn't leave Rugby station and instead traveled on a different ticket.

If your final destination is London Euston and there are trains tonight that get you there, then unfortunately Avanti can't be compelled to convey you. However, if you are forced to buy a ticket, then arguably Northern should be reimbursing the ticket, given they should have re-routed you under the PRO.

Was this bought as a through journey from the forum's ticketing site? If so, although I am really busy at the moment, I would be happy to help you with proofreading of any letters you wish to send to the relevant train companies, if you send me a direct conversation message.

That's good to know. Sadly I didn't buy the tickets from the forum's ticketing site though so you wouldn't be able to help me out.

Just to be clear - what's the best way to contact Northern about this? Do I just put all the tickets (incl. Rugby -> London Euston) on their Delay Repay website? Or should I just email Northern directly about the Avanti train ticket and not bother putting it on the Delay Repay claim?

I'm not sure if I'd go that far, but to be honest from Rugby to London at this late hour, the chances of a ticket check on Avanti are likely to be extremely slim.

Yeah in the end I didn't have my ticket checked. Though I did end up snagging an Advance ticket from Rugby anyway so the cost wasn't that bad, and I didn't want to risk having to pay a penalty fare.

 

[gray1404]

Unfortunately you have complicated things here by purchasing a new ticket.

 

[Tester]

Unfortunately you have complicated things here by purchasing a new ticket.

Which is easy to say.

But what is your alternative suggestion, given the lack of support at the time?

 

[Watershed]

Unfortunately you have complicated things here by purchasing a new ticket.

Not at all, in the circumstances it was the only reasonable course of action and it was our advice which I stand by.

I ended up buying an Avanti ticket from Rugby to Euston because I really didn't want to come back any later or deal with the hassle of taking a taxi back.

As in I only traveled from Crewe to Rugby on my Advance Ticket even though it says Crewe to London Euston. Good to know that's allowed as I didn't leave Rugby station and instead traveled on a different ticket.

I can see what you mean. Break of journey isn't a defined term anymore, it used to be defined as leaving the station for anything except a change to another nearby station or to use the station facilities. On that basis you didn't break your journey.

Soms people would say that it is anything where you don't use your ticket in full, but given that there is nothing to define the term one way or the other anymore, I would say the old definition still stands as a decent indication. Anyway, in the circumstances, regardless of whether or not you did break your journey, clearly no action can be taken when you only stopped using that ticket because of disruption.

That's good to know. Sadly I didn't buy the tickets from the forum's ticketing site though so you wouldn't be able to help me out.

Just to be clear - what's the best way to contact Northern about this? Do I just put all the tickets (incl. Rugby -> London Euston) on their Delay Repay website? Or should I just email Northern directly about the Avanti train ticket and not bother putting it on the Delay Repay claim?

Unfortunately I don't think there is any point including the Avanti Rugby-Euston Advance in your Delay Repay claim. Delay Repay is based on the difference between your planned itinerary and your actual arrival time. With the Avanti Advance being train specific, you wouldn't be able to include it for your claim unless you said that your journey planned to involve it all along - in which case you likely "weren't delayed" at all and won't get any compensation.

I would claim based on your original intended tickets (including Oyster to Hither Green) and then contact Northern separately to submit a complaint asking for reimbursement of the cost of your Avanti Advance on the grounds that they refused to comply with their re-routing obligations under Article 16 of the PRO.

Note that the official cross London connection times can be much slower than what can be achieved in practice. For example, based on taking the 20:13 from Crewe, your official arrival time into Hither Green would have been at 23:38 (using the 23:25 from London Bridge).

Looking at the live running of trains yesterday, if you caught the 21:13 from Crewe to Rugby and then the 22:35 Avanti service from Rugby to Euston, you would have been able to get to Euston at 23:39 and possibly made it to London Bridge in time for the 00:10 train to Hither Green which arrived at 00:22 - meaning you'd only get 50% of your single tickets back as you'd have been less than an hour late.

Of course if you missed that train and ended up on the next and final one (00:59 from London Bridge) then you would have been more than an hour late and so would be entitled to 100% of your single tickets in Delay Repay.

Yeah in the end I didn't have my ticket checked. Though I did end up snagging an Advance ticket from Rugby anyway so the cost wasn't that bad, and I didn't want to risk having to pay a penalty fare.

Avanti aren't a Penalty Fares operator but in theory you could have been charged for an Anytime Single which is still pretty expensive. Now in fairness, with your planned journey being all the way to Hither Green, you would have been stranded at Euston if you had not taken Avanti, so there is an argument to say they were liable to help you out and allow you to use their services, under condition 28.2 of the National Rail Conditions of Travel.

But with the Euston to Hither Green leg being planned to use Oyster they might turn around and say that there's no "proof" of your intended destination. I wouldn't agree with this but it is a potential complication with using PAYG for part of a longer journey.

 

[A Fellow Human]

Thank you for your help!

Looking at the live running of trains yesterday, if you caught the 21:13 from Crewe to Rugby and then the 22:35 Avanti service from Rugby to Euston, you would have been able to get to Euston at 23:39 and possibly made it to London Bridge in time for the 00:10 train to Hither Green which arrived at 00:22 - meaning you'd only get 50% of your single tickets back as you'd have been less than an hour late.

Of course if you missed that train and ended up on the next and final one (00:59 from London Bridge) then you would have been more than an hour late and so would be entitled to 100% of your single tickets in Delay Repay.

The problem is I ended up taking the 22:51 instead of the 22:35 from Rugby. Citymapper indicated that I very likely wouldn't have made the 00:10 train from London Bridge if I took the 22:35 from Rugby and it arrived at London Euston at its scheduled time of 23:53, so at the time it seemed like I would end up on the 00:59 from London Bridge either way. Because the 22:51 had Advance tickets and the 22:35 did not, I ended up taking the later train from Rugby. However, the 22:35 from Rugby ended up arriving at Euston 14 minutes earlier than scheduled, so the connection to the 00:10 from London Bridge was possible to make, and I suppose it could be argued that I took a slower route intentionally, especially because I had asked Northern for a reroute onto the 22:35 from Rugby. Might this be a problem in claiming back train fares?

In any case the Oyster tap in/out records do indicate I was delayed by more than one hour (relative to 23:38).

 

[Watershed]

Thank you for your help!

The problem is I ended up taking the 22:51 instead of the 22:35 from Rugby. Citymapper indicated that I very likely wouldn't have made the 00:10 train from London Bridge if I took the 22:35 from Rugby and it arrived at London Euston at its scheduled time of 23:53, so at the time it seemed like I would end up on the 00:59 from London Bridge either way.

After ~22:00 on weekdays, the southern end of the WCML is timetabled as a two track railway to allow for engineering works, so Avanti services are scheduled to run slowly behind stopping services. In reality, a large proportion of the time all four tracks are open so Avanti services can run on the fast lines, ahead of schedule.

Unfortunately there's no way for journey planners to know this ahead of time; the only way to know would be to look at a live train running site such as Traksy or OpenTrainTimes to see which tracks trains are using - obviously not something the average person can be expected to do!

Because the 22:51 had Advance tickets and the 22:35 did not, I ended up taking the later train from Rugby. However, the 22:35 from Rugby ended up arriving at Euston 14 minutes earlier than scheduled, so the connection to the 00:10 from London Bridge was possible to make, and I suppose it could be argued that I took a slower route intentionally, especially because I had asked Northern for a reroute onto the 22:35 from Rugby. Might this be a problem in claiming back train fares?

In any case the Oyster tap in/out records do indicate I was delayed by more than one hour (relative to 23:38).

I think you acted entirely reasonably in mitigating the cost by taking the 22:51 instead of the 22:35. I don't think Northern would have a leg to stand on if they said that's the reason they're not reimbursing you. It's more likely they'll try to pretend the PRO somehow doesn't apply here, or just ignore your argument altogether and say something along the lines of that they don't pay for "consequential" losses.

Your Oyster records will be useful in proving the exact timings, albeit Northern's Delay Repay system may not handle Oyster statements so you may need to email in to claim Delay Repay anyway.

 

[redreni]

It is quite extraordinary that Northern not only failed to meet their obligations to the OP under PRO, but actually told the OP in terms that they never meet their obligations where the customer opts for re-routeing. I don't really see how their WhatsApp message to the OP could be interpreted any other way.

 

[A Fellow Human]

Thank you everyone for your advice! I have filled out the Delay Repay form and separately emailed Northern Train Equiries. I will let everyone know if things are successful or if there are any issues.

It is quite extraordinary that Northern not only failed to meet their obligations to the OP under PRO, but actually told the OP in terms that they never meet their obligations where the customer opts for re-routeing. I don't really see how their WhatsApp message to the OP could be interpreted any other way.

The service rep told me, quote, "Unfortunately, I wouldn't be able to assist with rerouting your journey. If the Northern service had caused you to miss your connecting service, you would need to speak to the conductor of the next available service to see if your ticket would be valid for that journey." Indeed it seems like they are admitting that they never bother with their obligations for re-routing...

 

[gray1404]

Avanti were obliged to carry the OP without the need.to.pruchase additional tickets to avoid leaving them stranded. This is because their final destination was not London Euston.

 

[Haywain]

Avanti were obliged to carry the OP without the need.to.pruchase additional tickets to avoid leaving them stranded. This is because their final destination was not London Euston.

It was their final ticketed destination.

 

[AlterEgo]

It was their final ticketed destination.

Indeed and that's what matters. If you want the benefits of through protection you have to buy a ticket. It's a downside to PAYG but it's why I would always use a paper ticket or combination of paper tickets in this scenario.

 

[yorkie]

...Citymapper indicated that I very likely wouldn't have made the 00:10 train from London Bridge..

Ah, I now see the title says Euston but you did say Hither Green in the post.

My strong advice in future is to book a through journey from your overall origin to destination; there is no need for a through ticket, but a through itinerary in one booking is indisputable evidence of a contract for the entire journey.

Avanti would then have been compelled to accept your ticket, if taking WMT would have risked the connection being missed.

Had Avanti charged an additional fare (unliklely; although the Guards said "no" to you, they may have said "yes" if they had known about the onward connection, but the reality is that late in the evening a ticket check is very rare on Avanti in my experience, apart from possibly from the origin of the train) then you could have claimed the entire amount back from Avanti on the basis that Avanti were obligated to convey you under NRCoT condition 28.2.

If you would prefer to use e-tickets and contactless to cross London, use the forum's ticketing site and select the option to use contactless to cross London (note: this may only actually work if it is cheaper than a through fare; if a through fare is cheaper, I believe you will simply be offered that instead).

The forum's site will allow you to customise the journey if you wish, e.g. exclude particular operators, force a changing point, additional interchange time etc.

 

[A Fellow Human]

although the Guards said "no" to you, they may have said "yes" if they had known about the onward connection

I did actually tell one of the guards that taking the LNWR itinerary would have meant I would have been stranded in Euston, and he told me that I could just ask the station staff at Euston for a taxi home. But to be honest I'm not sure how well-staffed London Euston actually is at 1am and I didn't really want to find out the hard way.

If you would prefer to use e-tickets and contactless to cross London, use the forum's ticketing site and select the option to use contactless to cross London (note: this may only actually work if it is cheaper than a through fare; if a through fare is cheaper, I believe you will simply be offered that instead).

The forum's site will allow you to customise the journey if you wish, e.g. exclude particular operators, force a changing point, additional interchange time etc.

Right, I see. I would prefer to use contactless because it seems to me that it is cheaper than buying train tickets, so knowing I can just do this instead is quite helpful.

Is there an Android app for the ticketing site, since I'd rather not dig through emails on my phone or mess around on a browser to pull out my ticket? I know TrainSplit itself does have one.

 

[walkingsophie]

Is there an Android app for the ticketing site, since I'd rather not dig through emails on my phone or mess around on a browser to pull out my ticket? I know TrainSplit itself does have one.

The forum's website and trainsplit have the same front and backend with the only difference being that some of the profits from the forum website directly going to the forum. You can use either interchangeably

 

[Russel]

Unfortunately there are some guards who will in fact deny you travel in this situation (if anyone could explain why this happens I would be interested as it's pretty ridiculous) and in that case you are screwed and will have to put up with the delay, or try and get Northern to refund your Avanti ticket as described above. It really shouldn't be this way, but it is.

I've never understood the attitude some staff take in situations like this.

Discretion costs nothing and it's not as if the guard would face any personal repercussion or financial penalty, it would also show that 'the railway' does actually care about it's customers.

 

[gray1404]

I'm afraid I've come up against this myself with some staff working the west coast mainline. The idea that you should get as far as possible with the operator you are booked for before you end up stranded and then need a taxi.

It doesn't work that way I'm getting a taxi provided for you as an absolute last resort. Moreover if another operator is able to carry you without you being left stranded.

In this situations I have whenever possible just bored at the train when they know I am entitled to be on it. It's worth remembering these are all contractual rights when traveling and this is not like anybody is doing as a favor especially when we are already inconvenienced.

 

[tumbledown]

these are all contractual rights when traveling

Just because you have a contract with one company does not necessarily mean you have a contract with another - another which is legally obliged to maximise its shareholders' profits.

 

[Coolzac]

This whole episode is a sign of how customer unfriendly the railway is. It's such poor customer service from both Northern and Avanti.

Ultimately the customer is severely inconvenienced, probably stressed and also to top it off then potentially out of pocket financially, for the railway causing them to be delayed. It's ridiculous and solutions need to be found.

 

[Watershed]

Just because you have a contract with one company does not necessarily mean you have a contract with another - another which is legally obliged to maximise its shareholders' profits.

All of the TOCs are party to the NRCoT.

 

[yorkie]

The forum's website and trainsplit have the same front and backend with the only difference being that some of the profits from the forum website directly going to the forum. You can use either interchangeably

It used to be the case that only the forum site had this feature, but I see its on the main Trainsplit site too now:


The app would generally work the same, but I don't know if all options are there; I suspect the developers are aware of this thread so may confirm in due course, or someone with the app could take a look.

(The forum only gets commission if it's booked on the forum ticketing site and there isn't a forum version of the app)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Sep 2026 ==

Just because you have a contract with one company does not necessarily mean you have a contract with another - another which is legally obliged to maximise its shareholders' profits.

As I stated above, for a journey through to Hither Green, Avanti are obliged to convey a customer if they are in a position to do so, and if it would avoid the customer missing the connection to Hither Green.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Sep 2026 ==

This whole episode is a sign of how customer unfriendly the railway is. It's such poor customer service from both Northern and Avanti.

Yes it is absolutely true, though many frontline staff of many TOCs are excellent. Avanti - with some exceptions - are notoriously poor in this area. Northern are mostly great, though the quality of their staff is one of the most variable out of any of the TOCs I have regular experience of! On-board staff are generally more customer focussed than station staff, while staff in customer services are typically clueless.

Ultimately the customer is severely inconvenienced, probably stressed and also to top it off then potentially out of pocket financially, for the railway causing them to be delayed. It's ridiculous and solutions need to be found.

We've been calling this out and asking for solutions on this forum for two decades....

 

[Adam Williams]

In terms of the TrainSplit app: the Android app has that feature, iOS doesn't today.

The forum site is responsive and will work in both Safari and Chrome, however.

On the TS app vs the forum ticketing site, one of the neat things Amazon used to support in-app back when Amazon Smile existed was the ability to go into the app and configure a chosen cause (whereby a % of revenue would then be sent to that charity for all in-app purchases for a period of time before you had to renew it). It'd be an interesting feature one day if Raileasy could be convinced the concept was a good idea, and far better in my view than separate apps.

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

All of this is a reminder to me that on journeys involving NT/LM and the West Coast of this kind, I would never rely on the last possible set of connections and would go 60-90 minutes earlier. The 'rules' (ie. PRO) and what happens on the ground rarely bear much relationship to each other and the high level of fares on Avanti if a new ticket is really the best option during disruption is a major deterrent. The risk of being stranded when going South of London is real. Like one of the comments above it's hard to believe the one about 'they'll put you in taxi from London' would in practice happen in a scenario such as this.