• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Strange signal near St John's on BBC report

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
28,766
Location
Nottingham
Where more than two routes needed to be indicated (or space was limited for other reasons), then American-looking 4-aspect cluster signals were used in preference to more familiar 'linear' signals.
Not sure I see the point of these. Presumably top and bottom were yellows, so double yellow is displayed vertically, so the side ones must be red and green. This means that a cluster junction signal would have had uneven spacing between the lit lenses depending which route and aspect was being displayed, with obvious risk of confusion with signals on the same gantry for adjacent tracks. Also a set of standard heads would be narrower than a similar set of clusters, even taking account of the need to separate the lenses laterally, so the clusters only save space if there is some vertical constraint.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

thesignalman

Member
Joined
9 Jan 2012
Messages
167
[snipped]
One other quirk of those early 'linear' 4-aspect colour lights was that aspects were arranged in a different sequence to the standard seen today. In the early installations, the order of aspects, reading from top to bottom, was G Y R Y, rather than the familiar Y G Y R. I think a few of the 'wrong way up' LMS-pattern signals survived at Wigan Wallgate into the 21st century on the Southport/Liverpool side of the station.

So, looking at the OP's link to the BBC story - a close observer of the photo might wonder why the side-by-side junction signals both seem to be showing single yellow aspects. In fact they are likely to be early Westinghouse examples, both showing Red.

Much better idea, actually. The bottom aspect can't get clogged by build-up of snow like the others and if you think about it a yellow aspect is far more important than a red one.

John
 

Dr Hoo

Established Member
Joined
10 Nov 2015
Messages
5,721
Location
Hope Valley
The church in Deptford is strictly St John the Evangelist’s Church, so there would be no apostrophe after “St John”!
 

contrex

Established Member
Joined
19 May 2009
Messages
1,681
Location
St Werburghs, Bristol
A lot will come down to who was talking to whom when names started being codified - just down the road from Tipton St J is Ottery St Mary (no ‘s at all) - I suspect that at one point both names were a bit like the modern day Tesco / Tesco’s and each has settled down by happenstance on different sides of the debate as it were.
Yes. Tesco is the proper company name, and Tesco's is an informal/unofficial/colloquial variant.
 

Rescars

Established Member
Joined
25 May 2021
Messages
2,593
Location
Surrey
Yes. Tesco is the proper company name, and Tesco's is an informal/unofficial/colloquial variant.
Though don't confuse Lloyds which is a bank and Lloyd's which is an insurance market (having started out as a coffee shop almost 350 years ago)! As an aside, I don't think any of the old companies ever named a loco after a bank, but the GWR had "A1 at Lloyd's", no 100 naturally.
 

Gloster

Veteran Member
Joined
4 Sep 2020
Messages
13,052
Location
Up the creek
Though don't confuse Lloyds which is a bank and Lloyd's which is an insurance market (having started out as a coffee shop almost 350 years ago)! As an aside, I don't think any of the old companies ever named a loco after a bank, but the GWR had "A1 at Lloyd's", no 100 naturally.

I am in full pedant mode here.

The loco was number 100.A1 according to the 1946 edition of the GWR’s own ‘GWR Engines’ (1982 David & Charles reprint), but other sources give it as just 100A1. The only photo that I can find says just A1 on the cabside, but that might be just for publicity at the time of naming. A shortage of photos is not surprising as she was the first Castle withdrawn, only working from 1936 to 1950.

No without a full stop is a straightforward indicator of a negative. When it is short for number it should be no. to indicate this as it is the ablative of the Latino numerus.
 

Rescars

Established Member
Joined
25 May 2021
Messages
2,593
Location
Surrey
I am in full pedant mode here.

The loco was number 100.A1 according to the 1946 edition of the GWR’s own ‘GWR Engines’ (1982 David & Charles reprint), but other sources give it as just 100A1. The only photo that I can find says just A1 on the cabside, but that might be just for publicity at the time of naming. A shortage of photos is not surprising as she was the first Castle withdrawn, only working from 1936 to 1950.

No without a full stop is a straightforward indicator of a negative. When it is short for number it should be no. to indicate this as it is the ablative of the Latino numerus.
You are quite correct. I was getting carried away! The name was Lloyd's, the number 100 A1 - reflecting the marine registration classification "100 A1 at Lloyd's" for a vessel being constructed to ocean going standards and being maintained in good condition.
 

Merle Haggard

Established Member
Joined
20 Oct 2019
Messages
3,991
Location
Northampton
I am in full pedant mode here.

The loco was number 100.A1 according to the 1946 edition of the GWR’s own ‘GWR Engines’ (1982 David & Charles reprint), but other sources give it as just 100A1. The only photo that I can find says just A1 on the cabside, but that might be just for publicity at the time of naming. A shortage of photos is not surprising as she was the first Castle withdrawn, only working from 1936 to 1950.

No without a full stop is a straightforward indicator of a negative. When it is short for number it should be no. to indicate this as it is the ablative of the Latino numerus.


The RCTS Locos of the GW gives the story. It reads '4079 was renumbered and renamed A1 Lloyds in 1/26. Additional plates with number 100 were put on above the " A1 " in 2/36 and the buffer beam bore " 100A1". For ordinary purposes the engine was known as 100."
 
Last edited:

Gloster

Veteran Member
Joined
4 Sep 2020
Messages
13,052
Location
Up the creek
You are quite correct. I was getting carried away! The name was Lloyd's, the number 100 A1 - reflecting the marine registration classification "100 A1 at Lloyd's" for a vessel being constructed to ocean going standards and being maintained in good condition.
+
The RCTS Locos of the GW gives the story. It reads '4079 was renumbered and renamed A1 Loyds in 1/26. Additional plates with number 100 were put on above the " A1 " in 2/36 and the buffer beam bore " 100A1". For ordinary purposes the engine was known as 100."

I have found another photo on the excellent .warwickshirerailways.com under Leamington (the photo was staring me in the face earlier) and there it has a second number plate with 100 on it on the cabside immediately above the one with A1 on it. This is dated circa. 1936, so very early on as the official naming took place on February 17 1936. The photo without the 100 numberplate mentioned in #36 looks as though it was taken at Swindon, so probably an official photo taken on completion of the rebuild.
 

Merle Haggard

Established Member
Joined
20 Oct 2019
Messages
3,991
Location
Northampton
+


I have found another photo on the excellent .warwickshirerailways.com under Leamington (the photo was staring me in the face earlier) and there it has a second number plate with 100 on it on the cabside immediately above the one with A1 on it. This is dated circa. 1936, so very early on as the official naming took place on February 17 1936. The photo without the 100 numberplate mentioned in #36 looks as though it was taken at Swindon, so probably an official photo taken on completion of the rebuild.

And I've just noticed my post I incorrectly spelt Lloyds - though autocorrect might be the real culprit.
 

Rescars

Established Member
Joined
25 May 2021
Messages
2,593
Location
Surrey
And I've just noticed my post I incorrectly spelt Lloyds - though autocorrect might be the real culprit.
It's that darned apostrophe again! :)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

+


I have found another photo on the excellent .warwickshirerailways.com under Leamington (the photo was staring me in the face earlier) and there it has a second number plate with 100 on it on the cabside immediately above the one with A1 on it. This is dated circa. 1936, so very early on as the official naming took place on February 17 1936. The photo without the 100 numberplate mentioned in #36 looks as though it was taken at Swindon, so probably an official photo taken on completion of the rebuild.
The full marine classification starts with a Maltese cross symbol. Swindon missed a trick by not adding this on a third plate above the "100"!
 

D6130

Established Member
Joined
12 Jan 2021
Messages
9,145
Location
West Yorkshire/Tuscany
Unbelievable! More than twenty off-topic posts about apostrophes, locomotive number plates, etc. All of them totally unrelated to the OP's question about historic colour-light signals. I don't like reporting people.....but let's get a grip please ladies and gentlemen! :s

PS. I'm just preparing my application for the next moderator's vacancy! :lol:
 
Last edited:

Belperpete

Established Member
Joined
17 Aug 2018
Messages
3,708
I can recall reading a book by OS Nock about the history of early colour light signalling. Apparently debates at the IRSE got quite heated between the two factions, those advocating for separate junction heads, and those advocating for junction indicators. The separate heads were preferred by traditionalists, as it followed traditional semaphore practice. However, it was claimed that this arrangement meant drivers were ignoring red aspects. In the end, it was the simplicity of junction indicators, particularly where signals had multiple routes, that won.

Early junction indicators had a vertical indication for the straight route. This was because they used strip lights, which were almost impossible to prove. The use of filament bulbs allowed the junction indicator to be proved, and so the straight ahead indication was dropped.

The Southern wasn't the only railway to use three lamp junction indicators, this was also the standard on the underground. The Southern also used miniature yellow aspects for junctions.

And of course, the ultimate in traditionalists, the GWR, used a totally different colour light signalling system, where the colour lights exactly replicated the night time indications of a semaphore stop arm above a distant arm!

And now we are going back to using double-headed signals for junctions. Albeit not for the junction signal itself, but for the signals in rear.
 

Merle Haggard

Established Member
Joined
20 Oct 2019
Messages
3,991
Location
Northampton
The LMS/LMR seemed to be quite fond of low-level colour lights - basically a head just above ballast level. I think I can remember some on the WCML before the 1960s resignalling.
 

Kevin51

Member
Joined
12 Dec 2019
Messages
84
Location
Herts
Apparently John is the most common name for a Saint, making it Top of the Popes.

More seriously, this one should really have an apostrophe as the area takes its name from the Church of St John in Deptford.
I live near St Albans and the saint is of course Alban. But a search of the internet says apostrophes are a recent thing. Chaucer didn't use them and Shakespeare rarely used them. So I guess that is why place names precede the use of apostrophes.
The one that always gets me checking is it's or its.
 

D6130

Established Member
Joined
12 Jan 2021
Messages
9,145
Location
West Yorkshire/Tuscany
I live near St Albans and the saint is of course Alban. But a search of the internet says apostrophes are a recent thing. Chaucer didn't use them and Shakespeare rarely used them. So I guess that is why place names precede the use of apostrophes.
The one that always gets me checking is it's or its.
Oh no! We're back to off-topic apostrophes again. Saints preserve us.... I'm sure that there's a thread about apostrophes somewhere. ;)
 

Kevin51

Member
Joined
12 Dec 2019
Messages
84
Location
Herts
Oh no! We're back to off-topic apostrophes again. Saints preserve us.... I'm sure that there's a thread about apostrophes somewhere. ;)
I started the tread so thought I might as well jump in with a comment on apostrophes. Also dashes in station names, Bradford on Avon or thanks to the GWR Bradford-on-Avon
 

Rescars

Established Member
Joined
25 May 2021
Messages
2,593
Location
Surrey
I started the tread so thought I might as well jump in with a comment on apostrophes. Also dashes in station names, Bradford on Avon or thanks to the GWR Bradford-on-Avon
It wasn't just the punctuation which made the Bideford, Westward Ho! and Appledore unique!
 

Kevin51

Member
Joined
12 Dec 2019
Messages
84
Location
Herts
Just checking which Bullied pacifics are in preservation and 34066 Spitfire it says "Locomotive involved in the Lewisham disaster, 4 December 1957. Considered a candidate for preservation." I take it it was only considered but was not actually saved as it doesn't give a location.
Also 34086 218 Squadron.
 

Gloster

Veteran Member
Joined
4 Sep 2020
Messages
13,052
Location
Up the creek
Just checking which Bullied pacifics are in preservation and 34066 Spitfire it says "Locomotive involved in the Lewisham disaster, 4 December 1957. Considered a candidate for preservation." I take it it was only considered but was not actually saved as it doesn't give a location.
Also 34086 218 Squadron.

34066 was withdrawn in September 1966 and scrapped at Buttigieg’s, Newport; various sources wrongly claim it was scrapped at Woodham’s, but it is not in their list (probably it is the only scrapyard many have heard of and just imagine that all locos went there). 34066 was apparently considered for preservation, but Blackmore Vale was chosen instead. (Imagine the newspaper outcry nowadays; ‘Killer loco to haul families on a day out’, ‘This insult to the dead,’ etc.)
 

Harvester

Established Member
Joined
9 Nov 2020
Messages
1,794
Location
Notts
Just checking which Bullied pacifics are in preservation and 34066 Spitfire it says "Locomotive involved in the Lewisham disaster, 4 December 1957. Considered a candidate for preservation." I take it it was only considered but was not actually saved as it doesn't give a location.
Also 34086 218 Squadron.
The only Bulleid Pacific preserved by BR was 34051 Winston Churchill, and it is now part of the national collection.

34023 Blackmore Vale was preserved privately, only because it lasted until the end of SR steam in July 1967 and was chosen simply because it was in the best condition of the surviving Bulleid light pacifics.

MN 35028 Clan Line was also bought privately from BR, but all the rest were sold for scrap. Those that ended up at Barry were subsequently purchased from Woodhams, and most have been restored.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Falcon1200

Established Member
Joined
14 Jun 2021
Messages
6,624
Location
Neilston, East Renfrewshire
(Imagine the newspaper outcry nowadays; ‘Killer loco to haul families on a day out’, ‘This insult to the dead,’ etc.)

Yet the underframe of one of the coaches involved in Lewisham survives to this day in use on the preserved East Somerset Railway!
(Under the experimental fibreglass vehicle, S1000S).
 

MikeWh

Established Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
15 Jun 2010
Messages
8,584
Location
Crayford
My grandmother would have normally been on the Hayes service that was hit by 34066 (she would have changed at Elmer's End for Woodside) but that evening with some fortune had missed the train...
Ditto for my father.

The thing I find most amazing about that whole site is that the 'temporary' bridge over the mainline still stands nearly 70 years later.
 

Kevin51

Member
Joined
12 Dec 2019
Messages
84
Location
Herts
The only Bulleid Pacific preserved by BR was 34051 Winston Churchill, and it is now part of the national collection. 34023 Blackmore Vale was preserved privately, only because it lasted until the end of SR steam in July 1967 and was chosen simply because it was in the best condition of the surviving Bulleid light pacifics. MN 35028 Clan Line was also bought privately from BR, but all the rest were sold for scrap. Those that ended up at Barry were subsequently purchased from Woodhams, and most have been restored.
I was reading up on Clan Line. I was on the Exeter Flyer tour on the 3rd Oct 1965 hauled by 35022 Holland America Line which the preferred loco to be preserved by the Merchant Navy group but 35022 had already gone to Barry so they bought 35028 instead. 35022 never the less survived.
 

Harvester

Established Member
Joined
9 Nov 2020
Messages
1,794
Location
Notts
I was reading up on Clan Line. I was on the Exeter Flyer tour on the 3rd Oct 1965 hauled by 35022 Holland America Line which the preferred loco to be preserved by the Merchant Navy group but 35022 had already gone to Barry so they bought 35028 instead. 35022 never the less survived.
The Bulleid Pacifics that did end up at Woodhams, and were subsequently rescued, were early withdrawals from 1965-66. Those that made it to the end of SR steam, and put up some outstanding performances in the last months, ended up at other South Wales scrapyards. Hence deserved preservation candidates like MN 35003/7/8/23/30 ended up as razor blades!
 

ox_chap

Member
Joined
7 Jun 2026
Messages
97
Location
Oxfordshire
Related in a way to junction indicators, isn't part of the events beforehand that a Hastings train stopped because they were inadvertantly signalled for Hayes? The actual Hayes train then stopped behind it, in a place where it is very rare for a train to stop.
 

Merle Haggard

Established Member
Joined
20 Oct 2019
Messages
3,991
Location
Northampton
The BBC radio reports of the disaster must have included the name of the loco. because, as a very young would be 'spotter I thought that I would never see it. About the same time,I think slightly before, Tri-ang had introduced 'TT3' and one of the first locos produced was a model of Spitfire.

On the subject of scrapping 'spam-cans'; a sad photo I saw `(but can't remember the loco. numbers) was of one hauling three others, dead, towards South Wales. All had been sold for scrap, and presumably the one in steam was the best of the four. It left the other three at Barry, and then continue on to its own buyer (presumably one of the Swansea ones) and was cut up within days of arrival.

Edit - additional

Based on what I read in one of those engine driver's memories book rather than in the accident report; Bulleid Pacific's did not have dampers, the author said. The light engine movement of 34052 was very protracted due to the fog, with the result it spent a lot of time with the safety valves open (because the fire couldn't be damped) to the extant that when it was attached to the train it was running low on water. This was said to be another source of stress for the loco crew, thinking where they could stop at a crane. The author of the book had worked at the same shed as the mishap crew.
 
Last edited:

Gloster

Veteran Member
Joined
4 Sep 2020
Messages
13,052
Location
Up the creek
Related in a way to junction indicators, isn't part of the events beforehand that a Hastings train stopped because they were inadvertantly signalled for Hayes? The actual Hayes train then stopped behind it, in a place where it is very rare for a train to stop.

The problem was that the clock-style train describers could only show one description at a time and when several trains were following close behind one another the signalman had to remember which ones were still to pass. With the disruption due to the fog the signalman at Parks Bridge Junction mistook which train was which. There was also the problem that only twenty-four train types could be shown, and one of these was replaced by ‘Cancel’; with the Hastings diesels there were now too many and they had to ‘share’ a description. Normally a train register would help, but due to a shortage of booking boys it was not possible to keep one at Parks Bridge Junction.
 

Kevin51

Member
Joined
12 Dec 2019
Messages
84
Location
Herts
Those that made it to the end of SR steam, and put up some outstanding performances in the last months,
You can say that again. I mentioned the train that I was on. On the return trip from Exeter to Waterloo, Axminster 9 minutes early, Yeovil Junc 13 mins early, Templecombe 16 minutes early, Salisbury 22 minutes early. I assume a water stop at Salisbury. Worting Junc 8 mins early then more less the same to Waterloo arriving 9 minutes early. I guess from Basingstoke the train had to fit in around scheduled trains hence only being 9 minutes early at Waterloo.
 

Top