Uber/Omio refusing refund after Victoria Line suspension

[agk2126]

Bought two off-peak singles on Wednesday (16 Sep), from Uber, from Highbury & Islington to Stansted Airport. Victoria Line to Tottenham Hale, Greater Anglia to Stansted Airport.

Arrived at Highbury & Islington to find Victoria Line service completely suspended. Took a photo (attached) of TfL staff refusing access to platforms. We could not travel by rail at all. I promptly requested a refund from Uber/Omio, sending the timestamped photo as well as original and defaced (paper) tickets.

They are flatly refusing to refund my £22.30, despite my submission of unused tickets and plenty of evidence of the Victoria Line cancellation. See attached correspondence. Any advice? Apparently the Rail Ombudsman won't cover this type of dispute with a ticket retailer.

Many thanks!

 

[Bletchleyite]

One option would be to bring a claim under the Small Claims Track. I can't see this not succeeding but this "legal advice" is worth precisely what you paid for it

What were the TfL staff advising to do? Could you have taken a bus for instance?

 

[agk2126]

What were the TfL staff advising to do? Could you have taken a bus for instance?

Yes they were advising to take a bus or to travel by Overground to Stratford, and then backtrack to Tottenham Hale and Stansted from there. Neither option would have gotten us to the airport in time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes they were advising to take a bus or to travel by Overground to Stratford, and then backtrack to Tottenham Hale and Stansted from there. Neither option would have gotten us to the airport in time.

With respect, you didn't leave enough time for your journey, then.

However, that doesn't make you any less entitled to a refund, it just means you wouldn't have much of a claim for the taxi fare I assume you incurred. I would expect as I noted above that if it comes to it legal action (or maybe a letter before action?) might solve this for you. Perhaps ask AI to write you a letter before action and post it here for the hobby litigants we have here to critique it before sending to Omio, then if that doesn't work actually sue?

 

[agk2126]

With respect, you didn't leave enough time for your journey, then.

Fair enough! I should clarify we would not have made it to Stansted Airport comfortably by either of the alternative routes (bus or Overground). But for this reason, I'm not trying to claim a taxi fare, just a refund!

However, that doesn't make you any less entitled to a refund, it just means you wouldn't have much of a claim for the taxi fare I assume you incurred. I would expect as I noted above that if it comes to it legal action (or maybe a letter before action?) might solve this for you. Perhaps ask AI to write you a letter before action and post it here for the hobby litigants we have here to critique it before sending to Omio, then if that doesn't work actually sue?

Would be nice to avoid legal action, of course. Hoping to tap the wisdom of hobby litigants to convince Omio to return my £22.30 via their customer service track, not small claims. But perhaps a letter before claim would induce a more thorough review at Omio?

 

[WesternLancer]

Tangential advice might be to avoid using this retailer again - give your business to someone else. You have probably thought of this.

 

[Belperpete]

Yes they were advising to take a bus or to travel by Overground to Stratford, and then backtrack to Tottenham Hale and Stansted from there. Neither option would have gotten us to the airport in time.

Have you had a reply yet from TfL? My suggestion would be to wait for that, and assuming that it confirms the suspension of service, forward that onto Uber.

 

[gray1404]

If you paid for the ticket using a bank card I would start a charge back at this point.

 

[323235]

With respect, you didn't leave enough time for your journey, then.

However, that doesn't make you any less entitled to a refund, it just means you wouldn't have much of a claim for the taxi fare I assume you incurred. I would expect as I noted above that if it comes to it legal action (or maybe a letter before action?) might solve this for you. Perhaps ask AI to write you a letter before action and post it here for the hobby litigants we have here to critique it before sending to Omio, then if that doesn't work actually sue?

Why are you expected to plan your journey with enough time to take an unexpected bus if the tube gets cancelled? That could mean leaving bags of extra time. As long as you’ve adhered to minimum connection times and minimum journey time allowances that a journey planner would apply then you are fine. Plus planning to arrive at the Airport 2-3 hours in advance of your flight.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why are you expected to plan your journey with enough time to take an unexpected bus if the tube gets cancelled?

Because we live in the real world and stuff goes wrong. And as flights tend not to be half hourly if you miss it it's going to wreck your trip even if you can claim the financial cost back from your insurance (though insurers insist on plenty of buffer as they too are realistic).

That could mean leaving bags of extra time.

This is very prudent, yes.

As long as you’ve adhered to minimum connection times and minimum journey time allowances that a journey planner would apply then you are fine. Plus planning to arrive at the Airport 2-3 hours in advance of your flight.

You want at least an hour of slack on top of when you'd like to arrive, or one train earlier than needed if less frequent, really. This might not have meant enough to take convoluted routes using buses, but it would have allowed the original poster to take a much shorter, cheaper taxi journey to Tottenham Hale and then take the train from there. If even that wasn't sensibly possible then they simply didn't leave enough time.

None of that of course prejudices their right to a refund if they did not travel by train at all due to the disruption.

 

[marshlinker]

Tangential advice might be to avoid using this retailer again - give your business to someone else. You have probably thought of this.

Under the new refund arrangements would it actually be any different here? The disruption is on london Underground so not covered by the National Rail Conditions.
The delay by taking a bus would have been at the most 30 mins. i dont know how much discretion third party retailers have.

 

[Watershed]

I concur that either a chargeback, or failing that a Letter Before Claim succeeded by a court claim brought through Money Claims Online is going to be the best way forward here.

It's really poor that Uber/Omio's support staff are refusing to look at official sources of information such as the TfL live status page to verify these kind of delays. The responses you have been getting are reflective of the appalling customer service which we have seen reported from Uber and I do think it's important to bear this in mind when you think about the savings/rebates you get when buying tickets through them!

With respect, you didn't leave enough time for your journey, then.

That is not automatically the case. You are generally advised to plan your journey such that you arrive at the airport 2 hours before the flight for a short haul flight (as 99% of flights from Stansted are).

This is to allow for the kind of minor disruption that might be expected on a day to day basis, e.g. a train being cancelled or some slight late running. A line being unexpectedly suspended is not routine and, just like an accident on the roads, is not the kind of thing you are expected to allow time for, otherwise you would have to plan hours extra just in case. That is not the public advice, nor what people tend to do in practice.

Now in this particular example, travelling via Stratford is around 30 mins slower based on official connection times. (In practice the difference is more than that, since the 19 mins "fixed link" from Highbury & Islington to Tottenham Hale for the Victoria line is timed on the generous side - considering the timetabled duration is 8 mins and the line runs every 2-3 mins)

So if a ~40 minute delay causes things to be too tight to be comfortable, then I agree that suggests probably not enough time has been allowed. But I don't think you can say that having problems during serious disruption automatically means someone hasn't allowed enough time.

 

[agk2126]

it would have allowed the original poster to take a much shorter, cheaper taxi journey to Tottenham Hale and then take the train from there. If even that wasn't sensibly possible then they simply didn't leave enough time.

True. That said, a taxi from Highbury and Islington to Tottenham Hale would have taken at least 30 minutes, compared to only 55 minutes directly to Stansted (via the A12 from Hackney Wick). And HHY to TOM is 7 minutes on the Tube. At least 60 minutes by bus.

an hour of slack on top of when you'd like to arrive, or one train earlier than needed if less frequent

Generally good advice, but might not entirely apply in a situation where an (otherwise very fast) Underground line, like the Victoria line, is suddenly and completely suspended. However, I admit I left too little slack to reasonably claim for the taxi expense to Stansted. I just want my money back from the cancelled trains.

The disruption is on london Underground so not covered by the National Rail Conditions.

Specifically this was a National Rail ticket from "London Underground Zones 2-3" to Stansted Airport. The first segment must have been on the Tube, as I understand it. Because of the disruption, ticket acceptance was in place for buses and the Overground, but that didn't help me at the time.

Could I reach out directly to TfL for compensation, or must this be through the retailer? If this were another ToC it would clearly be the retailer's responsibility to process the refund, but I don't understand this situation with TfL.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Could I reach out directly to TfL for compensation, or must this be through the retailer? If this were another ToC it would clearly be the retailer's responsibility to process the refund, but I don't understand this situation with TfL.

You didn't travel so it's a refund from the retailer. Compensation would apply if you did travel but were delayed.

TfL would almost certainly say that acceptance by bus was their part of the deal. Suspensions of Tube lines are not unusual in the scheme of things.

 

[agk2126]

I concur that either a chargeback, or failing that a Letter Before Claim succeeded by a court claim brought through Money Claims Online is going to be the best way forward here.

It's really poor that Uber/Omio's support staff are refusing to look at official sources of information such as the TfL live status page to verify these kind of delays. The responses you have been getting are reflective of the appalling customer service which we have seen reported from Uber and I do think it's important to bear this in mind when you think about the savings/rebates you get when buying tickets through them!

If only I had paid with a bank card! Unfortunately I used Uber Cash, which (ironically) I had accumulated through the rebates, which is my original reason for using Uber as a retailer. So I'm basically at their mercy for a refund. Though apparently my statutory rights (i.e. if I pursue a small claims track) remain, even if I used a voucher or credit.

 

[Watershed]

If only I had paid with a bank card! Unfortunately I used Uber Cash, which (ironically) I had accumulated through the rebates, which is my original reason for using Uber as a retailer. So I'm basically at their mercy for a refund. Though apparently my statutory rights (i.e. if I pursue a small claims track) remain, even if I used a voucher or credit.

You'd be entitled to get back your credits 'in kind'. Of course, whether you want credits from a retailer that provides customer service like this is a question you need to consider...

 

[Cdd89]

If only I had paid with a bank card! Unfortunately I used Uber Cash, which (ironically) I had accumulated through the rebates, which is my original reason for using Uber as a retailer. So I'm basically at their mercy for a refund

I don't think you've lost out, since to be honest, a chargeback is generally poor advice for any online service retailer you intend to use again. Uber would not care about the details and would likely respond to a chargeback by blocking you from all their services, which probably isn't worth £22 to you regardless of who is in the wrong. This process of banning customers who charge-back is automated and routine for most large service providers.

 

[Egg Centric]

I don't think you've lost out, since to be honest, a chargeback is generally poor advice for any online service retailer you intend to use again. Uber would not care about the details and would likely respond to a chargeback by blocking you from all their services, which probably isn't worth £22 to you regardless of who is in the wrong. This process of banning customers who charge-back is automated and routine for most large service providers.

How sure are you about this? While it's relatively rare for me to do a chargeback/S75 so I've a limited sample size I've never to my knowledge had a retaliatory ban. In any case I imagine that most people in something like OP's position but having paid by card would have been perfectly happy not using Uber again after this.

Anyway, @agk2126 before that (or small claims) - I'd be sending a single email asking for a final review before you take this to Transport Focus, and once you get gobbledegook back (which you presumably will) then actually taking it to them - https://www.transportfocus.org.uk/transport-user-advice/ - they can intercede with retailers as well as TOCs.

 

[Cdd89]

How sure are you about this? While it's relatively rare for me to do a chargeback/S75 so I've a limited sample size I've never to my knowledge had a retaliatory ban.

I don't know about Uber specifically, and retaliatory ban is probably the wrong term; it's more that your account will reflect a negative balance/debt owing, and many providers will not let you use their services while you have a negative balance.

I know my statement is generally true but I did a quick google and it looks like my statement is anecdotally correct in relation to Uber, in the sense that a negative balance was created that was recollected at the first opportunity:

Raised a chargeback for order that didn't arrive feb 15. Was successful April 3rd by revolut. Yesterday I try get kfc but it declined because it had my old card details. As soon as I added my new card, Uber eats took back the 16.15.

In relation to this bit:

In any case I imagine that most people in something like OP's position but having paid by card would have been perfectly happy not using Uber again after this.

Perhaps, but I think many people would pause before being willing to write Uber, Amazon, or other such 'giant' organisations out of their life, so it's a consequence worth being aware of. In the case of Uber case you'd be losing a lot more than just a mediocre train ticketing app.

I agree with your suggestions to pursue the debt by other means.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't know about Uber specifically, and retaliatory ban is probably the wrong term; it's more that your account will reflect a negative balance/debt owing, and many providers will not let you use their services while you have a negative balance.

Trainline does do retaliatory bans, but I haven't heard of others doing so.

On the other hand I personally wouldn't use Uber/Omio or TrainPal if the tickets were free. OK, well, I probably would if they were *free*, but they certainly seem to be the retailers with the poorest reputation for customer service.

Want good customer service? Trainsplit/Raileasy/the Forum version is a pretty good option (and there's a seat selector!)

 

[Cdd89]

On the other hand I personally wouldn't use Uber/Omio or TrainPal if the tickets were free.

If Uber were merely a train ticketing app, I would be the first to suggest a chargeback and would consider it a badge of honour to be unable to use their services

As mentioned the issue is the wider implications of being unable to use a 'giant' like Uber in every other context. Ridesharing, food delivery, etc.

 

[Adam Williams]

Trainline does do retaliatory bans, but I haven't heard of others doing so.

I would say most merchants will look to stop doing business with people who chargeback unless there was clearly a problem on the retailer's side with how the case was handled (and even then, as a merchant you'd hope you don't end up in this position! If there really has been a screw-up and it wasn't properly addressed, many customers will be amenable to withdrawing a card dispute if the case is later reviewed and a proper resolution suggested).

Now in this case, the retailer would obviously have no leg to stand on and I am not defending a failure to apply NRCoT condition 30.1, but I have seen some truly egregious chargebacks (some which reflect incredibly poorly on the card issuer as well for going along with their customer's nonsense) and it is worth remembering the merchant also has the right to pursue the debt (and additional costs) via civil means as well if they entirely disagree with the outcome of the chargeback process and think you are really taking the piss.

So it is worth thinking a little bit before raising a chargeback (Will the merchant automatically stop doing business with you? Does that pose a problem for you? Are they likely to look at the facts of the case before taking action?), but it can be a very useful tool.

I say all this as someone previously banned from Trainline for a chargeback (I maintain they were entirely in the wrong)

 

[Gaelan]

Because we live in the real world and stuff goes wrong.

Equally, you don't know the context of why OP got to the station when they did - it's entirely possible that they planned to make it to the station earlier, but failed to get out the door, because they live in the real world and stuff goes wrong.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Yesterday at 09:58 ==

would have been perfectly happy not using Uber again after this

I never use Uber to buy rail tickets*, and try hard not to use them for taxis. But sometimes you're in a tight spot in an unfamiliar city, need to be somewhere as fast as you can, and (especially if you don't speak the language) Uber is one of the best ways to do that. I wouldn't want to get myself banned.

* I nearly did, once, when I noticed that they failed to exclude railcard discounts on certain through intermodal fares. This seems to have been fixed before I had a chance to test such a ticket.

 

[marshlinker]

On the other hand I personally wouldn't use Uber/Omio or TrainPal if the tickets were free. OK, well, I probably would if they were *free*, but they certainly seem to be the retailers with the poorest reputation for customer service.

Want good customer service? Trainsplit/Raileasy/the Forum version is a pretty good option (and there's a seat selector!)

What about
10% gift card discount
3% Uber credits
Avios
Rail Forums price match
No ,"share of saving" fee
I've never ever used a rail ticketing retailers customer service.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What about
10% gift card discount
3% Uber credits
Avios
Rail Forums price match

Don't care. I am willing to pay for quality of service. I won't use a retailer who offers poor service.

Also the all-TOC seat selector is a killer app. If I'm reserving a seat I generally want to ensure a window view.

No ,"share of saving" fee

Easy to avoid that if you want to, just add the tickets you want to the basket separately. I usually don't, but sometimes do if it's one of those cases where the fee is unreasonably high and I knew the split anyway.

I've never ever used a rail ticketing retailers customer service.

But you do want it to be there and functional when you do need it. Certainly I do.

 

[Chiltern 165]

Is uber/omio even rdg certified? If so could you raise it with them?

 

[gray1404]

As the OP paid with Uber credits it looks like their best option now is to raise a complaint with Transport Focus and/or the Rail Ombudsman.

 

[furlong]

The fundamental problem here is that all the to-and-fro has only been with ONE person and went down a rabbit hole that lost track of their actual request. Long ago, the OP needed to get their issue escalated to a more knowledgeable person for a second opinion. I wouldn't be bothering with external escalations when there hasn't yet been an internal escalation! There are usually several methods of doing this if the person you're dealing with won't play ball, including opening a second ticket (likely to get allocated to a different person), phoning, looking for a complaints mechanism, management contacts, press office (reference this forum thread) etc.

 

[Mawkie]

You didn't travel so it's a refund from the retailer. Compensation would apply if you did travel but were delayed.

The closure was due to a person under a train at Blackhorse Rd, which is outside TfL's delay repay scheme anyway.

 

[agk2126]

The fundamental problem here is that all the to-and-fro has only been with ONE person and went down a rabbit hole that lost track of their actual request. Long ago, the OP needed to get their issue escalated to a more knowledgeable person for a second opinion. I wouldn't be bothering with external escalations when there hasn't yet been an internal escalation! There are usually several methods of doing this if the person you're dealing with won't play ball, including opening a second ticket (likely to get allocated to a different person), phoning, looking for a complaints mechanism, management contacts, press office (reference this forum thread) etc.

I did request an escalation multiple times in the chat, but have now opened a second ticket! If this doesn't work, will try Transport Focus. The Rail Ombudsman doesn't handle disputes with this particular retailer.

they certainly seem to be the retailers with the poorest reputation for customer service.

Perhaps. Anecdotal of course, but the handful of times I've used their customer service before, they've been prompt and helpful. Following cancellations or disruptions where I didn't travel, Uber/Omio have issued refunds much faster than ToCs, back when I booked tickets directly.