EMR weird stopping patterns

[Northern150]

Why do TOCs, and I especially see it with EMR, stop at a station very infrequently like once a day, a lot of the time in one direction only, when I don't even think it's a parliamentary requirement? Liverpool to Norwich has some weird stopping patterns. In particular there is one train in one direction per day in the morning that calls at Hazel Grove towards Liverpool. I have gotten this train before out of curiosity and it does seem to be quite busy, both with people getting off and boarding at Hazel Grove. That begs the question, why do EMR and others do this? Why is the service so infrequent for these stations yet they still call at them? Is it pathing or something else?

 

[Failed Unit]

Legacy in many cases. They were the only operator on the route. Take Peterborough- Nottingham via Melton Mowbray. At the time it was to provide a service into Peterborough before XC services (under BR the unit was in Nottingham so I don’t think anything came until the first train from Birmingham)

It also retains route knowledge.

However why it isn’t more frequent who knows. Useful for train crew irrespective if the Grantham route is gone.

There is a Nottingham- Grimsby service stopping at the local stations near Grimsby in one direction only. If it didn’t it would be difficult to commute into Grimsby

 

[M60lad]

Not to sure whether it falls into this category but there's also the Saturday only 18:51 Liverpool Lime Street-Sleaford, odd in that Mon-Fri this same service terminates at Nottingham.

 

[transportphoto]

You may find this discussion from December insightful. In particular, this insight from @LowLevel:

Not only does it provide route retention for Nottingham traincrew, it has a reasonable number of regular patrons from Stamford who pay a lot of money for tickets to London (albeit I imagine the way revenue is allocated EMR don't see much of it). Usually get one or two on at Oakham and maybe one at Melton, and a handful from Nottingham either to Loughborough or longer distance journeys.

Both 1L01 and 1L02 have a bit of a different focus to the usual EMR Norwich trains which are heavily linked to Peterborough long distance traffic. 1L01 caters for local traffic from Stamford, is then the first eastbound train into Anglia from Peterborough and March picking up a lot of traffic for Cambridge that changes at Ely, and then fills up again into Norwich.

1L02 is much more heavily loaded from the Stamford line stations into Peterborough and then again with commuters into Ely but has largely missed the Norwich commuters arriving after 9.

They've been running this way for decades now.

2E32 comes in useful on the frequent occasions that Cross Country are not turning up and is the descendant of 2R92 which used to get the Spalding shuttle unit back to Nottingham from the early 1990s until 2021 or so.

 

[Purple Train]

When I was younger I remember there being all sorts of EMT (as it was) oddities. On the Robin Hood Line, which was mostly 156s at that point with a decent helping of 158s and the very occasional 153, there was a random 07.24-ish Mansfield Woodhouse-Norwich which was usually a 153+158 formation. I have no idea of the operating arrangements as I never went further than Nottingham, and it doesn't seem to run any more, but the extra service was quite useful!

Then, of course, there seemed to be a multitude of different stopping patterns on the Nottingham to Lincoln line, terminating variously at Lincoln, Sleaford, Grimsby Town etc., and going through phases of stopping everywhere, then calling only at some stations, then going fast to Newark Castle, etc. I always assumed that the various randomnesses were a (much reduced) remnant of Central Trains's schemes to run no two services the same, but I'd love to hear more about it.

 

[Northern150]

Yeah that is strange and interesting. Hazel Grove seems to have alot of weird services stopping in the morning. The 8.18 EMR to Liverpool I already mentioned but there's also a Northern at around 6am to Sheffield which is the only train between Hazel Grove and the Hope Valley/Sheffield. Then there is the 7.10 to Picc starting at Hazel Grove which is a 331 and the 8.10 to Picc also starting at Hazel Grove which is a 323, these are the only EMU services everyday and all of the other services are 150/156. It really is bonkers.

 

[liamf656]

Even in the current timetable there are various anomalies. There are a couple of Norwich to Derby services in the late evening, a morning Derby-Sheffield regional service (and return in the evening), a Sunday morning Nottingham to Manchester via Derby and Belper, and a Saturday evening Liverpool to Sleaford! Those are just off the top of my head as well, there must be more.

Christmas Eve 2026 has a one off Liverpool to Lincoln via Sheffield and Nottingham, presumably joining two services together, so there might be some oddballs then too

Will trawl through realtimetrains later to find some other interesting services as rarities like this always fascinate me

 

[Tetchytyke]

Hazel Grove seems to have alot of weird services stopping in the morning.

It's about providing peak time capacity into and out of Manchester, mostly. It's not particularly unusual for longer-distance trains to make off-pattern calls in the peak, EMR have quite a few examples: Dore and Totley, Chinley, Birchwood, Dronfield. Hazel Grove also has a few short services in the morning and evening to take the pressure off the Buxton trains, some are diesel and some are electric. Hazel Grove used to have a lot more electric services when the Buxton line was only hourly.

Some of it is historical or for operational reasons. The Hope Valley stoppers are run by Northern from the Manchester end, so EMR operate the first westbound stopper in a morning and the last eastbound stopper in the evening.

 

[D365]

Even in the current timetable there are various anomalies. There are a couple of Norwich to Derby services in the late evening, a morning Derby-Sheffield regional service (and return in the evening), a Sunday morning Nottingham to Manchester via Derby and Belper, and a Saturday evening Liverpool to Sleaford! Those are just off the top of my head as well, there must be more.

On the topic of Belper, I'm surprised you didn't mention the Intercity stops! I'm not sure currently how many a day in each direction, but they do form a very useful connection for commuting to/from Sheffield.

 

[robbeech]

there was a random 07.24-ish Mansfield Woodhouse-Norwich which was usually a 153+158 formation.

I used that one a few times, starting further up the line and deciding where to change and wait for it.

I also used the Liverpool to Worksop train* in the late afternoon.

It technically wasn’t booked as that but as the service divided at Nottingham one half continued to Norwich and the other half formed a Worksop service. The interesting bit is Liverpool to Worksop isn’t valid via Nottingham but journey planners would always give that train as a ‘direct’ train and allow it.

 

[Taunton]

EMR has a bizarre train at 2300 from St Pancras to Derby, which uses every bit of slow line it can, jog-trotting behind a Thameslink all-stations to Bedford, through the Sharnbrook tunnel, then round through Melton Mowbray (nonstop) to come into Leicester from the north. Reversing there it at least goes on to Derby directly; a year or two ago it used to turn off again at Sheet Stores Junction and come into Derby from the Burton line.

 

[liamf656]

On the topic of Belper, I'm surprised you didn't mention the Intercity stops! I'm not sure currently how many a day in each direction, but they do form a very useful connection for commuting to/from Sheffield.

Ah yes, for some reason I thought the thread specifically meant regional! A fair few make use of it to commute as it's obviously it doesn't involve doubling back at Derby. No idea why the 2232 ex-SHF also calls at Belper though!

 

[louis97]

EMR has a bizarre train at 2300 from St Pancras to Derby, which uses every bit of slow line it can, jog-trotting behind a Thameslink all-stations to Bedford, through the Sharnbrook tunnel, then round through Melton Mowbray (nonstop) to come into Leicester from the north. Reversing there it at least goes on to Derby directly; a year or two ago it used to turn off again at Sheet Stores Junction and come into Derby from the Burton line.

This is due to the two track timetable after 11pm on a weekday, this is to allow for the Section 4 Standard Possession Opportunities. The train won't always use the slows lines, as there are selective week Section 5 Opportunities for the Slow Lines. The train does still go via Stenson Junction when the Section 5 Opportunities close the line via Spondon, although diverting via Chesterfield is also an option if that is open. This happened last week, however it did not go via Melton Mowbray, looks like the line via Market Harborough is open on the weeks when Spondon is closed, this allows the time usually spent going via Melton to be used for the divert via Stenson.

 

[liamf656]

This is due to the two track timetable after 11pm on a weekday, this is to allow for the Section 4 Standard Possession Opportunities. The train won't always use the slows lines, as there are selective week Section 5 Opportunities for the Slow Lines. The train does still go via Stenson Junction when the Section 5 Opportunities close the line via Spondon, although diverting via Chesterfield is also an option if that is open. This happened last week, however it did not go via Melton Mowbray, looks like the line via Market Harborough is open on the weeks when Spondon is closed, this allows the time usually spent going via Melton to be used for the divert via Stenson.

What's even weirder is that the 2335 goes via Market Harborough and arrives into Leicester about 6 minutes before the 2304!

 

[Llandudno]

Ah yes, for some reason I thought the thread specifically meant regional! A fair few make use of it to commute as it's obviously it doesn't involve doubling back at Derby. No idea why the 2232 ex-SHF also calls at Belper though!

The 2232 Ex Sheffield stops at Belper to drop off passengers, I have used it a few times and there has always been a few other passengers alighting.

It also allows a later return to Matlock by catching the last 6.1 bus from Belper.

 

[MidsMike]

Even in the current timetable there are various anomalies. There are a couple of Norwich to Derby services in the late evening, a morning Derby-Sheffield regional service (and return in the evening), a Sunday morning Nottingham to Manchester via Derby and Belper, and a Saturday evening Liverpool to Sleaford! Those are just off the top of my head as well, there must be more.

Christmas Eve 2026 has a one off Liverpool to Lincoln via Sheffield and Nottingham, presumably joining two services together, so there might be some oddballs then too

Will trawl through realtimetrains later to find some other interesting services as rarities like this always fascinate me

The Derby to Sheffield regional service and return forms the Sheffield to Norwich servive. Kind of opens some weird through routes like Derby to Norwich via Sheffield and Belper to Alfreton via Sheffield

Although it’s not advertised as a through service wonder if you can do these journeys direct

 

[mickey]

It's about providing peak time capacity into and out of Manchester, mostly. It's not particularly unusual for longer-distance trains to make off-pattern calls in the peak, EMR have quite a few examples: Dore and Totley, Chinley, Birchwood, Dronfield. Hazel Grove also has a few short services in the morning and evening to take the pressure off the Buxton trains, some are diesel and some are electric. Hazel Grove used to have a lot more electric services when the Buxton line was only hourly.

Hazel Grove has a massive commuter market, mostly towards Manchester but also some inbound (for Stepping Hill). Chinley has become a bit of a railhead for commuters because of its faster services - there are also some people who use them towards Warrington and Liverpool so it’s useful for them.

It’s not unusual in other parts of the country either, e.g. IETs from Bristol typically make an extra stop somewhere in the Thames valley in the morning peak (Twyford or Maidenhead, for the branch line traffic).