Severn Valley Railway to trial commuter services

[peteb]

I see the current situation thus:

1. WMR only have revenue protection teams at Bewdley and on morning trains to sell tickets for the morning services towards Kidderminster and beyond/vice versa.
2. Kidderminster (Network Rail) booking office can sell tickets for journeys to/from Bewdley (as can any Network Rail station) but this often closes at 6pm, sometimes earlier (e.g. 5pm last Wednesday).
3. The ticket machine at Kidderminster doesn't recognise Bewdley as a destination so you can't buy tickets there.
4. The Severn Valley Railway are only providing the stock and crew, they don't sell Network Rail tickets on the train.
5. No revenue protection teams are used on the afternoon trains.
6. A few sites might be able to sell online tickets but you have to be really "in the know" to know which ones.
7. WMR advertises the dire consequences of travelling without a valid ticket (£100 penalty fare).
8. Most "honest" people will be worried about boarding a train without a ticket, even if there's a small print get out of jail free excuse that the ticket machine won't issue a ticket or the ticket office is shut.
9. Travel on evening services is effectively "free". There's no "pay here for WMR tickets" card reader on the train. (There could be, like a donations card reader found in unstaffed churches etc). So no revenue stream for evening services.
10. This is surely putting the trial at a disadvantage and surely this state of affairs should be remedied, or the trial extended by the amount of time taken to sort ticketing out? Otherwise the entire basis for the trial has to be seen as disingenuous, set up to fail etc. Is this something that the ORR would look into?

 

[S101]

I see the current situation thus:
1.
WMR only have revenue protection teams at Bewdley and on morning trains to sell tickets for the morning services towards Kidderminster and beyond/vice versa.
2.
Kidderminster (Network Rail) booking office can sell tickets for journeys to/from Bewdley (as can any Network Rail station) but this often closes at 6pm, sometimes earlier (e.g. 5pm last Wednesday).
3.
The ticket machine at Kidderminster doesn't recognise Bewdley as a destination so you can't buy tickets there.
4.
The Severn Valley Railway are only providing the stock and crew, they don't sell Network Rail tickets on the train.
5.
No revenue protection teams are used on the afternoon trains.
6.
A few sites might be able to sell online tickets but you have to be really "in the know" to know which ones.
7.
WMR advertises the dire consequences of travelling without a valid ticket (£100 penalty fare).
8.
Most "honest" people will be worried about boarding a train without a ticket, even if there's a small print get out of jail free excuse that the ticket machine won't issue a ticket or the ticket office is shut.
9.
Travel on evening services is effectively "free". There's no "pay here for WMR tickets" card reader on the train. (There could be, like a donations card reader found in unstaffed churches etc). So no revenue stream for evening services.
10.
This is surely putting the trial at a disadvantage and surely this state of affairs should be remedied, or the trial extended by the amount of time taken to sort ticketing out? Otherwise the entire basis for the trial has to be seen as disingenuous, set up to fail etc. Is this something that the ORR would look into?

But has this information been passed on to the people in charge of, and funding the trial?

 

[peteb]

But has this information been passed on to the people in charge of, and funding the trial?

Yes, verbally to the Revenue Protection Manager on Bewdley station.

 

[S101]

Yes, verbally to the Revenue Protection Manager on Bewdley station.

Who will no doubt have muttered something about the public moaning, behind your back. The PTE or whatever they're called these days could do with hearing about it, as they're funding it.

 

[Adam Williams]

My assumption is that the answer is very much a no, but are rover tickets and InterRail/BritRail passes valid on these services (which, in the data at least, are all operated by West Midlands Railway)?

 

[kje7812]

My assumption is that the answer is very much a no, but are rover tickets and InterRail/BritRail passes valid on these services (which, in the data at least, are all operated by West Midlands Railway)?

I heard someone tried using a west midlands day ranger on the first day and was told no.

 

[ox_chap]

Let’s not let a good idea fail because ticketing is so complicated.

OK, a combined through ticket might be a great novelty. But if merging computer systems make everything difficult, just have a simple single flat fare where you tap your card on to a reader, fitted to a vertical grab handle somewhere on the DMU.

Then many passengers will buy their onward ticket from Kidderminster on their phones, and while on the DMU.

 

[peteb]

It seems that tickets are available to purchase from the West Midlands Railway website:

West Midlands Railway: Train tickets, travel information, train times and train timetables https://share.google/vYJpU83KVpM0NQumQ



However, attempts to buy them on the West Midlands Railway App failed. This is because tickets can only be collected from a WMR ticket machine, not downloaded onto a phone. Weird!

Also if you're travelling from Bewdley there's no ticket machine to collect the tickets from.

I feel sorry for the Revenue Protection Team, they'll probably be moaned at about this. Maybe a work round would be to buy a ticket on the website, for collection at Kidderminster, and show the revenue team that the ticket is waiting to be collected at the end of the journey?

But what a faff! Simpler by far to install a simple card reader on the train that dishes out £2 singles or £3 returns by tapping in.

 

[Adam Williams]

This is because tickets can only be collected from a WMR ticket machine, not downloaded onto a phone. Weird!

But what a faff! Simpler by far to install a simple card reader on the train that dishes out £2 singles or £3 returns by tapping in.

It doesn't have to be this way, this is a Trainline problem.

 

[bluegoblin7]

But what a faff! Simpler by far to install a simple card reader on the train that dishes out £2 singles or £3 returns by tapping in.

I’m not sure this is the solution- how many card readers do you need? This week, for example, some of the commuter services are steam hauled due to the steam gala.

 

[43096]

It doesn't have to be this way, this is a Trainline problem.

Why is it specifically a Trainline problem and not a "railway industry can't do the basics" problem?

 

[kje7812]

I’m not sure this is the solution- how many card readers do you need? This week, for example, some of the commuter services are steam hauled due to the steam gala.

And the sets are different in the morning to the evening.
Also. just for reference, the evening runs are steam hauled if it falls on a running day. The past two weeks that has been Wednesday and Thursdays which is the same for the October dates as well. Only Tuesdays are DMU operated both am and pm (Wednesday 16th being an exception).

 

[ox_chap]

I’m not sure this is the solution- how many card readers do you need? This week, for example, some of the commuter services are steam hauled due to the steam gala.

Would it work to have readers on Bewdley station? So either tap at the beginning or the end of your journey? (Obviously, tapping at the end of a journey relies on honesty, because nobody can check tickets on the train by confirming that your bank card has been used).

 

[kje7812]

Would it work to have readers on Bewdley station? So either tap at the beginning or the end of your journey? (Obviously, tapping at the end of a journey relies on honesty, because nobody can check tickets on the train by confirming that your bank card has been used).

Well, there's no-one checking in the evening anyway.

 

[ox_chap]

There's some anecdotal evidence in Oxford that people crave simplicity. When the £2 fare cap came in, everyone knew that most bus fares in the city were previously positioned between £2 and £3. So people simply tapped on, and didn't even bother tapping off. Simple.

However, when the £3 cap came in, it suddenly became possible that tapping off could save, say, 50 pence - because the single journal might cost £2.50. This sort of annoyed, because it meant fumbling around to find your card again when alighting.

So, in other words, people really like simplicity. And I'd imagine Bewdley residents are an honest lot. Simply have a card reader on the station. It would be a real shame that a great initiative stopped because people lost patience messing around on Apps that only partially work for Bewdley.

 

[Belperpete]

TBH, I suspect that the damage has already been done. People will have tried to find the journeys/tickets when the trial started, and then given up. The percentage who will keep checking back will be small. And the percentage of that percentage who will check back yet again after encountering a different issue must surely be vanishingly small.

 

[peteb]

There's some anecdotal evidence in Oxford that people crave simplicity. When the £2 fare cap came in, everyone knew that most bus fares in the city were previously positioned between £2 and £3. So people simply tapped on, and didn't even bother tapping off. Simple.

However, when the £3 cap came in, it suddenly became possible that tapping off could save, say, 50 pence - because the single journal might cost £2.50. This sort of annoyed, because it meant fumbling around to find your card again when alighting.

So, in other words, people really like simplicity. And I'd imagine Bewdley residents are an honest lot. Simply have a card reader on the station. It would be a real shame that a great initiative stopped because people lost patience messing around on Apps that only partially work for Bewdley.

Yes a WMR card reader at the entrance to Platform 2 Bewdley from where all Kidderminster bound services depart, and an identical one at the ticket gates at Kidderminster SVR would then place the onus on all travellers, in whichever direction, to tap in and thus validating their journey.

I can see the convenience of buying through tickets to Network Rail destinations from the Bewdley Revenue Protection Team, but at the very worst, folks will have only paid £3 return/£2 single on top of any tickets purchased at Kidderminster. And it's still cheaper than the bus (£3 single) or parking at Kidderminster (£5.40 per day peak rate).

Maybe what we're doing here is thrashing out a strategy for ticketing this route ongoing should the trial be considered a success.

Maybe the trial isn't actually about the fares collected, more the change of mindset required to get people put of cars and onto public transport.

 

[sabanda]

However, attempts to buy them on the West Midlands Railway App failed. This is because tickets can only be collected from a WMR ticket machine, not downloaded onto a phone. Weird!

Is it WMR ticket machines only? The website says "Collect from any station with a ticket machine" but my attempts to do so at an SWR station were unsuccessful.

 

[alistairlees]

Is it WMR ticket machines only? The website says "Collect from any station with a ticket machine" but my attempts to do so at an SWR station were unsuccessful.

There is no distinction in data terms between the ticket machines or one operator and another. However it’s possible that some ticket machine suppliers may need to make updates at some machines.

 

[Titfield]

I would be surprised if a heritage railway agreed to be financially responsible for things like Delay Repay and replacement road services. The news report mentioned the first service being driven by a retired mainline driver who is now a volunteer at the heritage railway.

The arrangement is a bit different to selling Plusbus or through tickets to Metrolink zones.

They should be liable for delay repay etc. There shouldn’t be two tier train services irrespective of who the operator is. Otherwise they could opt out of passenger assistance etc etc.

 

[Adam Williams]

Why is it specifically a Trainline problem and not a "railway industry can't do the basics" problem?

Because the industry data is set up correctly for E-Ticketability, and Trainline (and therefore WMT) are completely ignoring it?



Every other retailer uses RCS to help drive whether they offer something as E-Tickets or not.

 

[em81]

They should be liable for delay repay etc. There shouldn’t be two tier train services irrespective of who the operator is. Otherwise they could opt out of passenger assistance etc etc.

I wasn't trying to imply passengers shouldn't be entitled to compensation, but was doubting a heritage railway would fund it, meaning the compensation claim may be through the WMT website.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It seems a very odd omission not to just have a single WMR guard or RPI work the service all day so as to sell tickets on a Paytrain basis (shouldn't need a team). That would seem an easy and cheap way of doing the trial - if successful then a WMT TVM could be installed at Bewdley and normal rules apply.

 

[overthere 2]

Raileasy/TrainSplit do not require registration before purchase.



For now: Just .. don't buy the tickets from West Midlands Railway if this is important. Other retailers offer E-Tickets.

For this trial I have ben deliberately looking at it from this angle: Somebody who usually drives everywhere and never uses the railway's but thinks I might give it a go, Somebody who is a bit nervous about train travel or not very good with technology or Somebody who is a loud-mouthed bore who constantly says: "The railways are rubbish" and decides to give it ago just to reinforce there opinion. All people that this trial needs to win round to make it a success and for it to spread.

Therefore if I came across publicity before reasonably near the start date I expect to be able to go on to the National Rail website see timetables and be able to buy a ticket (NOT have to sign up), download it to my phone, collect from a ticket machine while being warned there is no machine at Bewdley but I can collect from the Revenue Protection Staff in the morning or from my nearest staffed station ticket office, get it sent to me in the post or pop in to my local station to use the machine or buy from the ticket office directly.

All things that have only happened when we are three weeks in to the trial or not at all .




Latest edition of RAIL Magazine 16 - 30 September issue No 1070 has a two page spread (print, so no link) about this service and a couple of things caught my eye which I have listed below, along with my thoughts.

The reason they are doing the trial is that after the pandemic the timetables were changed and now trains between Birmingham and Kidderminster have a 25 minute turn around at Kidderminster. So, a quick run to Bewdley fits in nicely without needing extra rolling stock or staff or messing with the timetable.

I know there are issue's with trying to run both a commuter/passenger service and heritage at the same time so that's why I have always advocated keeping things simple, either a morning/evening commuter service or the heritage railway coming back on to the network full time.

For the WSR or Swanage where running all the way to Minehead or Swanage respectively would be the only way to operate a commuter/passenger service and for the SVR running all the way to Bridgenorth would be nice, but I don't think - certainly at the start - it would be practical for a number of reasons.

So going with this post:

Heading into full crayonista mode here, if the trial was a roaring success, funding was approved, and signalling issues were resolved, would it be theoretically possible to run both an all day half hourly WMT service to Bewdley (ie an extension of the current Kidderminster services) alongside a regular (not gala day) SVR timetable?

and considering there are trains sitting about at Kidderminster at regular times all day how practical would it be for SVR to operate a full service between Bewdley and Bridgenorth and only every other train carry's on to Kidderminster and could the rent/cut of tickets make more money than they make from people who come to ride the full route and might be put off by not having a full service between Bewdley and Kidderminster?

They get 84000 passengers between Kidderminster and Birmingham and according to a study that they got some company to do if they ran all the way to Bewdley as a proper TOC service it would provide an uplift of passenger's of about 7% and crucially it would be new passengers not abstraction.

Through out the whole trial the emphasis has been about people commuting between Bewdley - Birmingham but looking around the internet to see how much publicity there has been about this, particularly the NON rail enthusiast media (sadly, hardly anything ) I have seen posts saying lots of tickets have been sold to places like: Worcester, Stourbridge, Droitwich and even to a couple with lots of luggage who were going to Glasgow so if they decide to either carry on with this trial as it is or have WMR operate all the way between Bewdley and Birmingham then who knows what the percentage could get up to.

They asked Gus Dunster (SVR Managing Director) that if this does become permanent and WMR operate it as a through route what happens about speed limits and signalling?, and he said anything that runs on the SVR has to follow SVR rules and regulations so we wont be increasing the speed limit or changing the signalling (no doubt thinking about the nightmare of dealing with the ORR and insurance company's).

Now on the surface this seems very bad news for any railway who wants to copy the SVR, because if for example the WSR wanted to, then while a modern DMU can accelerate and break quicker than an old DMU and it would only call at selected WSR stations it would still be a long journey.

But as I have said many times before about heritage railways they are desperate for money, they have infrastructure and stock that is ageing and a shortage of volunteers. Meanwhile, from the government's point of view the road infrastructure is creaking/falling apart and they want to get people out of their cars and on to public transport but Re-opening railways takes years and cost's a fortune.

So if the heads of the various heritage railways who can/want to offer commuter/passenger services, the Heritage Railway Association, local authorities, TOCs, Network Rail, insurance company's and government ministers all sat down together then on the speed front I'm sure a happy compromise could be met by saying as long as it is TOC using modern stock then maybe 40mph or 50 mph could be looked at with maybe a regular check over of the track from a Network Rail employee.

As for signalling there are various different ways that could be dealt with as a number of posters have said or again there could be some sort of compromise.
For example a "Hidden from the public so not too spoil the atmosphere" modern signalling system could be developed and the cost of it shared between the good number of heritage railway's that can/could be developed to offer commuter/passenger service's and various TOCs, and the money spent got back from the fare box.

 

[kje7812]

The WMR website is now offering the tickets as e-tickets. I don't have the WMR to check that but other apps (such as the XC one) are now recognising Bewdley S.V.R. as a station.

Having viewed several days worth of evening runs, numbers are generally 30 to 35 across the two departures.
Enough to justify continuation? Answers on a postcard...

 

[em81]

The WMR website is now offering the tickets as e-tickets. I don't have the WMR to check that but other apps (such as the XC one) are now recognising Bewdley S.V.R. as a station.

Having viewed several days worth of evening runs, numbers are generally 30 to 35 across the two departures.
Enough to justify continuation? Answers on a postcard...

If the majority are going to Birmingham or a similar distance then yes. If a fair few are only going to Droitwich Spa then probably not.

 

[Kentish RYS]

So if the heads of the various heritage railways who can/want to offer commuter/passenger services, the Heritage Railway Association, local authorities, TOCs, Network Rail, insurance company's and government ministers all sat down together then on the speed front I'm sure a happy compromise could be met by saying as long as it is TOC using modern stock then maybe 40mph or 50 mph could be looked at with maybe a regular check over of the track from a Network Rail employee.

I think it may be more likely that the Heritage Railway have paid PWay of their own who just up the standard. It means they will be more aware of what is going on but the general idea, if the local Geography (both in terms of where the railway is/goes to and the local traffic flows and the railway curvature, etc) works. Also means mainline charters could operate like an express (if they keep a mainline loco) and run through at the higher speed, though you do get crew competence issues at that point. The Great Central has different grades of driver for different max speeds as I understand it.

As for signalling there are various different ways that could be dealt with as a number of posters have said or again there could be some sort of compromise.
For example a "Hidden from the public so not too spoil the atmosphere" modern signalling system could be developed and the cost of it shared between the good number of heritage railway's that can/could be developed to offer commuter/passenger service's and various TOCs, and the money spent got back from the fare box.

Signalling there are sensible ideas but I'd say not a 'Hidden from the public so not too spoil the atmosphere modern signalling system' as you can't have two signalling systems on the same railway (unless I have misunderstood what you mean or you are intending on just having a modern system alone). What would be easy is moving signals for a higher speed/greater braking distance, often just a distant (most heritage lines are signalled for 25mph and don't have what was there before with different track layouts and traffic patterns to pre closure). Also having closing out switches in signalboxes and log section tokens. Also you could add TPWS and AWS as these are designed to be an add on. You just probably want to avoid putting TPWS grids where steam locos will stop over them. You could even fit ETCS level 1 with switchable balises but I think finding the competant staff and components for that would be a challenge

Rules will be a fiddly but sortable thing to train Crew on a different rule book. The ORR do not like taking an inappropriate rule book and saying, we will use that (like the 1950s BR one) so the mainline RSSB one would probably be unsuitable. Driving on two is not impossible or anything like it though as Chiltern do it day in day out, among others. May be an issue if one drivers depot runs over several heritage lines but that is surely unlikely.

 

[kje7812]

Signalling there are sensible ideas but I'd say not a 'Hidden from the public so not too spoil the atmosphere modern signalling system' as you can't have two signalling systems on the same railway (unless I have misunderstood what you mean or you are intending on just having a modern system alone). What would be easy is moving signals for a higher speed/greater braking distance, often just a distant (most heritage lines are signalled for 25mph and don't have what was there before with different track layouts and traffic patterns to pre closure). Also having closing out switches in signalboxes and log section tokens. Also you could add TPWS and AWS as these are designed to be an add on. You just probably want to avoid putting TPWS grids where steam locos will stop over them. You could even fit ETCS level 1 with switchable balises but I think finding the competant staff and components for that would be a challenge

Kidderminster to Bewdley is permitted 50mph for testing purposes. One thing that helps is the lack of crossings, foot or vehicle, unlike the rest of the line.
A lot of the signal positions on the SVR are the same as pre closure. The distance signals for Hampton, Highley and Arley are all in the original positions as far as I'm aware.

 

[Belperpete]

If you want to run over 25mph passenger services, then it is not just the standard of the track that would need to be considered. It is likely that the railway would cease to be classified as a light railway. In which case, it would have to meet full mainline standards. So ALL trains using the railway would likely have to be fitted with AWS and TPWS, meet modern crash worthy standards, etc. Having a train of old wooden carriages run into the path of a modern dmu running at 50 mph would not be good. Doors to be fitted with central door locking, platforms to have yellow lines and tactile paving, etc etc.

I would hope that the ORR might be prepared to grant some exemptions, but I suspect their starting point would be that the railway has to meet all the standards. I suspect that to continue running heritage trains on the line you would end up with something like the requirements for running steam specials on the mainline.

 

[Russel]

Reading through the last couple of pages here and the debacle around ticket availability, I can't help but feel this is being set up to fail.

Hope I'm wrong on this one.