Invalid Railcard and Edited Ticket

[poeticbadger]

Hi all

I have been stopped by revenues officers on board a train going from Birmingham to Oxford.

I have been issued with 2 charges, one of which was monumentally stupid and the other a genuine mistake.

I hadn’t realised that my railcard had expired by about 6 or so days, I renewed this on board the train. So the first is an invalid railcard charge

The second is I edited a ticket to a different time , I was ticketed for the 09:13 train however I was not feeling well, (serious stomach problems, not an excuse just some context) and edited the ticket to be 08:13 instead so I could get on an earlier train having travelled far this morning and wanting to get to my friends house as soon as possible.

I got pulled up by the 2 officers and they told me I could face court charges etc. just looking to see how likely this is? I explained all of this and they included it in their report.

Totally messed up I did say I’d pay for another ticket but the ship had sailed unfortunately

Any advise on this one , don’t really want to have a criminal record if I can help it and I feel so stressed

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Friday at 09:59 ==

Also, first time offence if it helps at all

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Friday at 10:28 ==

I want to settle outside of court and will pay whatever is needed.

I was questioned for a revenues staff member and he wrote up a report which he had me sign

 

[Spaceship323]

The train company will settle out of court if you apologise and promise not to do it again. Please wait for their letter and post a redacted copy here so experts can advise further - Do not contact the train company

 

[Chiltern 165]

The second is I edited a ticket to a different time , I was ticketed for the 09:13 train however I was not feeling well, (serious stomach problems, not an excuse just some context) and edited the ticket to be 08:13 instead so I could get on an earlier train having travelled far this morning and wanting to get to my friends house as soon as possible.

There is a chance your ticket was valid on the 08:13.

Could you send a photo of the original (with your details removed.)

 

[Haywain]

There is a chance your ticket was valid on the 08:13.

It wasn't valid anywhere once it had been altered, and the OP isn't going to get anywhere by claiming the original was valid.

 

[Chiltern 165]

Any advise on this one , don’t really want to have a criminal record if I can help it and I feel so stressed

Don’t feel panicked/stressed, you are unlikely to be taken to court over this.

What the railway company will want is an out of court settlement. This will be the price of an any time ticket without discounts (~£50) and an admin/investigation fee of £100-£300.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Friday at 13:33 ==

I was questioned for a revenues staff member and he wrote up a report which he had me sign

Did he give you a receipt or charge you?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Friday at 13:34 ==

It wasn't valid anywhere once it had been altered, and the OP isn't going to get anywhere by claiming the original was valid.

True, and they will have to pay regardless because of the invalid railcard.

 

[WesternLancer]

Cross Country Train? You will probably be dealing with the enfacement contractor they use for this sort of stuff - ITAL - they are not easy to deal with and will threaten you with court action I would predict, so you will need advice from here as the process develops

Here is some general advice to help you understand what typically happens:


Firstly, you committed a criminal offence by travelling with an invalid ticket and railway companies are entitled to prosecute you in the Magistrates Court if they want to. The good news is they will normally offer an out of court settlement to people who co-operate with them and who haven't come to their attention before.

Next, what happens is the railway company will write to you. The letter will go to the address that you gave them / on any of your ID they checked so you need to be able to access hard copy post at that address as they often send things that way (but also check e-mail and spam). It is extremely important that you reply, and you'll only have a limited time to do so (often 14 days from the date on their communication).

When you receive the letter post a redacted copy of it in this thread, along with your draft reply and forum members will proof read it for you. You'll find lots of example letters you can use in this section of the forum but the reply basically needs to mention:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident and will not do this again
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the railway company’s administrative costs in dealing with the matter

The railway will probably offer you an out of court settlement. Expect to have to pay the cost of the fare for the journey you made at the full Anytime rate with no credit given for the invalid ticket you purchased. In addition they will charge an admin fee, typically £150. They will also audit your online ticket purchase history and if this shows you've purchased other tickets that were not valid (eg railcard discounted tickets when you did not have a valid railcard, or tickets for only part of the journey, or tickets bought after boarding the train you travelled on ) they will probably factor the cost of these journeys into the settlement offer. Depending on how many journeys you've made over the period concerned this could end up being expensive.

Settlements usually have to be paid in full within a few days of them being offered so if money is tight you might want to think about how you will raise the sum required at short notice.

 

[poeticbadger]

Cross Country Train? You will probably be dealing with the enfacement contractor they use for this sort of stuff - ITAL - they are not easy to deal with and will threaten you with court action I would predict, so you will need advice from here as the process develops

Here is some general advice to help you understand what typically happens:


Firstly, you committed a criminal offence by travelling with an invalid ticket and railway companies are entitled to prosecute you in the Magistrates Court if they want to. The good news is they will normally offer an out of court settlement to people who co-operate with them and who haven't come to their attention before.

Next, what happens is the railway company will write to you. The letter will go to the address that you gave them / on any of your ID they checked so you need to be able to access hard copy post at that address as they often send things that way (but also check e-mail and spam). It is extremely important that you reply, and you'll only have a limited time to do so (often 14 days from the date on their communication).

When you receive the letter post a redacted copy of it in this thread, along with your draft reply and forum members will proof read it for you. You'll find lots of example letters you can use in this section of the forum but the reply basically needs to mention:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident and will not do this again
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the railway company’s administrative costs in dealing with the matter

The railway will probably offer you an out of court settlement. Expect to have to pay the cost of the fare for the journey you made at the full Anytime rate with no credit given for the invalid ticket you purchased. In addition they will charge an admin fee, typically £150. They will also audit your online ticket purchase history and if this shows you've purchased other tickets that were not valid (eg railcard discounted tickets when you did not have a valid railcard, or tickets for only part of the journey, or tickets bought after boarding the train you travelled on ) they will probably factor the cost of these journeys into the settlement offer. Depending on how many journeys you've made over the period concerned this could end up being expensive.

Settlements usually have to be paid in full within a few days of them being offered so if money is tight you might want to think about how you will raise the sum required at short notice.

Hi yes it’s cross country

Relating to the ticket audit; not really an issue as I only ever get returns from my local stations and this is not often. No journeys made with invalid rail card etc so silver living I guess

Thanks all and I will post the letter here once I get it.

Is it necessary to get a solicitor due to the severity or will be alright ?

 

[poeticbadger]

Hi yes it’s cross country

Relating to the ticket audit; not really an issue as I only ever get returns from my local stations and this is not often. No journeys made with invalid rail card etc so silver living I guess

Thanks all and I will post the letter here once I get it.

Is it necessary to get a solicitor due to the severity or will be alright ?

Also in terms of a ticket audit I have cancelled journeys etc and had them refunded but that’s a case of trips being cancelled etc. surely wouldn’t be penalised for that ? I don’t have a history of it as I say it’s mostly journeys to and from my local station around the area I live in. Curious as to how they would judge fare evasion based off this unless there is rail cards that are invalid factored in (and to reiterate I’ve never travelled without a valid card either digital or physical)

Thanks for the replies guys

 

[poeticbadger]

Thanks all I will wait for the letter and follow up

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi yes it’s cross country

Relating to the ticket audit; not really an issue as I only ever get returns from my local stations and this is not often. No journeys made with invalid rail card etc so silver living I guess

Thanks all and I will post the letter here once I get it.

Is it necessary to get a solicitor due to the severity or will be alright ?

It’s the altered ticket they will focus on to threaten you about I suspect.
You may need to basically plead with them two or three times to get an out of court settlement.

I don’t think you need a solicitor at this stage if you get advice here and what you say to them checked here before sending any replies.

If it doesn’t work then that might be the time to consider a solicitor.
That will cost c£750 or more typically.
It would need to be a solicitor with rail fares evasion experience. Firms get listed on here with that experience.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Friday at 22:54 ==

Also in terms of a ticket audit I have cancelled journeys etc and had them refunded but that’s a case of trips being cancelled etc. surely wouldn’t be penalised for that ? I don’t have a history of it as I say it’s mostly journeys to and from my local station around the area I live in. Curious as to how they would judge fare evasion based off this unless there is rail cards that are invalid factored in (and to reiterate I’ve never travelled without a valid card either digital or physical)

Thanks for the replies guys

The problem you have is that by doing something dishonest they can have an excuse to poke about looking at all sorts of things and ask you awkward questions that you may not be able to substantiate your answers for. And they can make any out of court settlement dependent on it all.

But maybe none of that will happen.

You’ve just got to wait to hear from them and see what they put to you.

Then get the advice you need from here.

You can do basic preparation for things. Eg

Do not delete your on line ticket buying account as it puts you at a serious disadvantage if they ask details about past tickets

- find proof of ownership or of buying previous railcards.

- find and keep any records you might have of reasons for refunding tickets if feasible to do so.

Do all this now while you wait to hear from them. You may well not need it but if you do you will have used time now wisely

Have a browse over this part of the forum for cases involving cross country trains and ITAL to get an idea of how they deal with things and how it’s played out for other people.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

The second is I edited a ticket to a different time , I was ticketed for the 09:13 train however I was not feeling well, (serious stomach problems, not an excuse just some context) and edited the ticket to be 08:13 instead so I could get on an earlier train having travelled far this morning and wanting to get to my friends house as soon as possible.

Presumably it was a ticket labelled "Advance", one valid on the named train only. If the ticket was labelled "Anytime", it is, as the name suggests, valid on all trains that day and thus pointless to attempt to alter it.

 

[Belperpete]

This is perhaps an unusual case in that the OP has been reported twice for the same journey.

Amending the ticket was a deliberate, premeditated act of fraud, that will likely be taken very seriously. As others have already said it is unlikely to go to court unless the OP has a history of serious ticketing issues. However, the OP should be prepared to have their ticketing history questioned for any other potential irregularities.

The OP has a number of refunded tickets for local journeys. This could look suspicious, as getting refunds for unscanned tickets is a common scam, particularly if the tickets were bought on the day.

If the OP had renewed their Railcard before boarding the train, then this would not have been an issue. You don't need to have the Railcard when you buy a ticket but you must have it when you travel. So this raises the question: how long after boarding did the OP buy the Railcard? If it looks like the OP only bought the Railcard when they realised that their ticket was about to be inspected, that could also look highly suspicious.

If the OP is asked to attend an interview to explain such things, then get advice first.

 

[Haywain]

If the OP is asked to attend an interview to explain such things, then get advice first.

The chances of that happening are very small. The OP can only wait for a letter from XC or their agents and respond accordingly. There seems little point in overthinking this yet.

 

[poeticbadger]

Hi ,

I Renewed the railcard when I opened the app to show my card to them and realised it had not renewed (I had not used my card in the past week previous to travel or I would have already renewed). Explained as much in interview and they will see it was out of date by around 6 days - it was valid upon purchase of said tickets

I don’t have any refunded tickets on my account due to not scanning them , maybe I explained myself poorly. I have refunded maybe 2 out of the last 30 but those were only due to mistakenly buying the wrong station destination twice in a row on the same day lol

Hope that all makes sense

I will await letter and go from there

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Saturday at 14:43 ==

Reply to your message above ^ apologies

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Saturday at 14:43 ==

This is perhaps an unusual case in that the OP has been reported twice for the same journey.

Amending the ticket was a deliberate, premeditated act of fraud, that will likely be taken very seriously. As others have already said it is unlikely to go to court unless the OP has a history of serious ticketing issues. However, the OP should be prepared to have their ticketing history questioned for any other potential irregularities.

The OP has a number of refunded tickets for local journeys. This could look suspicious, as getting refunds for unscanned tickets is a common scam, particularly if the tickets were bought on the day.

If the OP had renewed their Railcard before boarding the train, then this would not have been an issue. You don't need to have the Railcard when you buy a ticket but you must have it when you travel. So this raises the question: how long after boarding did the OP buy the Railcard? If it looks like the OP only bought the Railcard when they realised that their ticket was about to be inspected, that could also look highly suspicious.

If the OP is asked to attend an interview to explain such things, then get advice first.

^^

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Saturday at 14:44 ==

The chances of that happening are very small. The OP can only wait for a letter from XC or their agents and respond accordingly. There seems little point in overthinking this yet.

Yeah I’ll wait on it. Worst case I will get a fixed price solicitor but gut feeling it may not come to this hopefully

Trying not to worry at present

 

[poeticbadger]

Also, what counts as “serious ticketing issues”?

 

[Chiltern 165]

Also, what counts as “serious ticketing issues”?

Have you been caught with the wrong ticket before/caught intentionally defrauding the railway before?

 

[poeticbadger]

Have you been caught with the wrong ticket before/caught intentionally defrauding the railway before?

Hi mate , no never. First time offender here - never even had a parking ticket

 

[6Gman]

Yeah I’ll wait on it. Worst case I will get a fixed price solicitor but gut feeling it may not come to this hopefully

Trying not to worry at present

A random solicitor is unlikely to be as effective as one with specialist knowledge of railway law.

 

[Haywain]

A random solicitor is unlikely to be as effective as one with specialist knowledge of railway law.

But either are unlikely to be necessary.

 

[poeticbadger]

A random solicitor is unlikely to be as effective as one with specialist knowledge of railway law.

Yes I mean a fare evasion specialist of course if it comes to that

 

[poeticbadger]

But either are unlikely to be necessary.

Thank you much appreciated

 

[flitwickbeds]

Hi mate , no never. First time offender here - never even had a parking ticket

First time offender or first time CAUGHT offending? Huge difference.

You must have been extremely unlucky to have decided on a whim to edit a ticket as your very first railway fraud, and be caught on the same occasion.

They can and almost certainly will go through your ticket purchase history (6 years' worth) and bring up anything that looks even remotely suspicious. So, honesty is the best policy going forwards.

 

[poeticbadger]

First time offender or first time CAUGHT offending? Huge difference.

You must have been extremely unlucky to have decided on a whim to edit a ticket as your very first railway fraud, and be caught on the same occasion.

They can and almost certainly will go through your ticket purchase history (6 years' worth) and bring up anything that looks even remotely suspicious. So, honesty is the best policy going forwards.

Hi

I’ve never altered or edited a ticket before.

The only thing they will see in my ticket purchase history is a handful I mean maximum 7 journeys in the last few years out of 100s in which were refunded as trips were cancelled due to illness , or trips not completed and partly refunded as a result

Some were due to returning home with friends who drove to the destination (for example , met my brother at a football game, so ticket home not used as he drove me home) hope that makes sense.

Not making myself look great here but made a mistake and am paying the price now.

Which accounts will they access ? I only buy tickets via LNER or Trainline

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi

I’ve never altered or edited a ticket before.

The only thing they will see in my ticket purchase history is a handful I mean maximum 7 journeys in the last few years out of 100s in which were refunded as trips were cancelled due to illness , or trips not completed and partly refunded as a result.

Not making myself look great here but made a mistake and am paying the price now.

Which accounts will they access ? I only buy tickets via LNER or Trainline

Trainline is most likely one they will look at but they can access any on line account if they want to do so under regulations relating to investigation of a crime.

Who did you buy the ticket you altered from? That’s the retailer they might look at first perhaps.

But basically at this stage you just have to wait and see what they ask you about. You can’t really do anything now apart from preparing yourself for the process.

Which you’re doing by coming here for advice.

 

[poeticbadger]

Trainline is most likely one they will look at but they can access any on line account if they want to do so under regulations relating to investigation of a crime.

Who did you buy the ticket you altered from? That’s the retailer they might look at first perhaps.

But basically at this stage you just have to wait and see what they ask you about. You can’t really do anything now apart from preparing yourself for the process.

Which you’re doing by coming here for advice.

Hiya

Trainline was my ticket supplier on this occasion.

I really appreciate that I will await the letter and see what happens - sorry guys I am naturally anxious , thanks for all the help.

Really worries about being taken to court and having a criminal record would have serious consequences in my work.

Thank you

 

[WesternLancer]

Hiya

Trainline was my ticket supplier on this occasion.

I really appreciate that I will await the letter and see what happens - sorry guys I am naturally anxious , thanks for all the help.

Really worries about being taken to court and having a criminal record would have serious consequences in my work.

Thank you

One thing you can do by way of preparation - in case they ask about it - is look at your on line account(s) and make a list of the occasions when you refunded tickets and then note down why you did so on each occasion (eg like the example you gave here about your bother giving you a lift home from the match.

If you refunded tickets you actually used, but then refunded because they had not been scanned and you could get away with it - then that's going to be a problem because you have no explanation to give them about that - and definitely don't be tempted to lie because if that comes out then they won't be likely to believe anything you are telling them and presumably that increases the risk of court action. But they may well not ask about any of this, I just think it's best to prepare yourself in case they do ask.

It would be worth looking at those refunded trips, calculating the fares at the Anytime rate - and starting to save that money up in case they do investigate this side of things. Obviously if those were long journeys that could be quite expensive.

Ordinarily all this can still be dealt with out of court - but you need to be careful in your approach. ITAL are not easy to deal with if they look into things they think are suspicious and actively ask you about them, so it's worth preparing yourself in case they do.

Ref the ticket alteration you did on the train - had you just got on the wrong train but not amended the ticket you could make some excuse up, but no way you can do that after actively altering that ticket - and also it's probably worth you knowing that the staff ticket scanners are set up with the information about the train the inspector is working on AIUI - so likely the scanner just automatically flagged your ticket wasn't valid on the train you were on (due to the info embedded in the barcode / QR code on the ticket), before anyone even physically looked at it.

I'm not wanting to make you more anxious about any of this - you will get the help you need here to navigate through this - but just hope that it helps you best if you know what to prepare for.

 

[poeticbadger]

One thing you can do by way of preparation - in case they ask about it - is look at your on line account(s) and make a list of the occasions when you refunded tickets and then note down why you did so on each occasion (eg like the example you gave here about your bother giving you a lift home from the match.

If you refunded tickets you actually used, but then refunded because they had not been scanned and you could get away with it - then that's going to be a problem because you have no explanation to give them about that - and definitely don't be tempted to lie because if that comes out then they won't be likely to believe anything you are telling them and presumably that increases the risk of court action. But they may well not ask about any of this, I just think it's best to prepare yourself in case they do ask.

It would be worth looking at those refunded trips, calculating the fares at the Anytime rate - and starting to save that money up in case they do investigate this side of things. Obviously if those were long journeys that could be quite expensive.

Ordinarily all this can still be dealt with out of court - but you need to be careful in your approach. ITAL are not easy to deal with if they look into things they think are suspicious and actively ask you about them, so it's worth preparing yourself in case they do.

Ref the ticket alteration you did on the train - had you just got on the wrong train but not amended the ticket you could make some excuse up, but no way you can do that after actively altering that ticket - and also it's probably worth you knowing that the staff ticket scanners are set up with the information about the train the inspector is working on AIUI - so likely the scanner just automatically flagged your ticket wasn't valid on the train you were on (due to the info embedded in the barcode / QR code on the ticket), before anyone even physically looked at it.

I'm not wanting to make you more anxious about any of this - you will get the help you need here to navigate through this - but just hope that it helps you best if you know what to prepare for.

Hi that all makes perfect sense.

Some have explanations eg sickness or just cancellation or ticket not used due to getting lifts.

Assuming honesty is best policy here

I’ll total the instances , I suspect that they will make me pay for the refunded return legs of the journeys that were refunded

Ta and I will keep you all posted

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi that all makes perfect sense.

Yes. That’s the general approach, but you might not get asked about it if you’re lucky.
Main thing is to have money to hand. If you don’t need to use it all for resolving this then that’s bonus.

 

[poeticbadger]

Yes. That’s the general approach, but you might not get asked about it if you’re lucky.
Main thing is to have money to hand. If you don’t need to use it all for resolving this then that’s bonus.

Hi

So the general breakdown from all the replies is

1) altered ticket they will come after me for in prosecution letter , they may also audit ticket buying history and query irregularities

2) railcard was expired by 7 days exactly and I renewed on the train, will they also factor this into the settlement and are they less likely to settle as I have effectively committed 2 offences ?

3) await letter from CX/ITAL and post here to draft response depending on content of letter, if it seems intense possibly getting rail fare experienced solicitor but most likely not needed

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi

So the general breakdown from all the replies is

1) altered ticket they will come after me for in prosecution letter , they may also audit ticket buying history and query irregularities

It's not really a 'prosecution letter' - you only know when you are being prosecuted when you get something from court telling you that you are - tho they may send letters from XC / ITAL saying along the lines of 'we are considering prosecuting you, do you have any reason why we should not' - which is basically your chance to grovel to them, apologise, and ask if they will let you resolve it out of court.
Yes, they may also have audited your ticket buying and query irregularities in that letter or a subsequent one

But you can't know for sure until the letter arrives and you can see what they are asking / saying.

2) railcard was expired by 7 days exactly and I renewed on the train, will they also factor this into the settlement and are they less likely to settle as I have effectively committed 2 offences ?

Well they might ask for proof of the railcard purchase and if they see it is after you boarded the train with the Railcard discounted price (and you can not proove otherwise from your purchase record) then they will not accept that the ticket should have a Railcard discount applied - and the settlement would not include it - but since the ticket was doctored anyway I doubt this is ever going to be part of any settlement offer they might make
You are not in a strong position to debate that with them...

An Anytime Single from Birmingham to Oxford is £52.70 - so if they offer a settlement that is the fare for that journey they will want - plus their admin fee

3) await letter from CX/ITAL and post here to draft response depending on content of letter,

Yes

if it seems intense possibly getting rail fare experienced solicitor but most likely not needed

Well you may be able respond and secure a settlement without paying for a solicitor via your own efforts with input from here.

If that doesn't work then you could ask a solicitor for help perhaps.

A solicitor specialising in this area of work may be able to set out your case more effectively than you can do so yourself - but their services will not be cheap - at least £750 I would think from what we see on here