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Which foreign rolling stock could be adapted for the British loading gauge?

Sorcerer

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Something that's interested me recently is how even a small increase in train size can make a huge difference to how rolling stock is built (such as interior spacing and technical aspects) and it had me wondering; given that Britain's loading gauge is uniquely restrictive compared to other standard gauge railways such as those on the continent, the US and China, how many foreign rolling stock models could be adapted to fit within the tight clearances?

We've already seen European models like the Pendolino, Coradia and FLIRT being scaled down to British standards along with the Japanese A-train, and we will see in future the Zefiro model being scaled down in the form of the HS2 stock, but could models like the Siemens Viaggo Comfort or Vectouro coaches also be scaled down? Could one of Alstom's New Pendolino/Avelia trains (ETR 675) be adapted without losing the distinctive bulbous nose shape?

I'd be very interested to know just how much Britain's historical network limits modern rolling stock procurement.
 
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brad465

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Not a possible future one, but 373s are essentially French TGVs scaled down to our loading gauge as well.
 

Clansman

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Talgo is another one. They even touted for a site in Scotland once upon a time.
 

coppercapped

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This question calls to mind a thread on the so-called 'Berne Gauge' of some ten or twelve years ago either here or on Usenet. I made some notes at the time which I use here but I'm afraid that I no longer have a record of links to the original threads with the exception of a reference to a Modern Railways article sometime in 1992.

The term 'Berne Gauge' was/is often used to refer to the loading gauge of continental rolling stock but itself was a simplification of the overall situation. The term itself arose from the fact that a conference was held in that city in 1913 which tried to improve on the loading gauge then generally accepted for vehicles in international traffic, without the need for each individual design of vehicle to be submitted to every railway over whose lines it was proposed to run. The original (1891) gauge meant that everyone accepted stock built to the then standard French loading gauge, which was the smallest in mainland Europe as to both width and height. All the other railways had very similar width requirements, and the new gauge was only some 50mm wider.

However the new gauge raised the height by some 130mm, as an attempt to compromise between the French standard and the generally more liberal heights available elsewhere. But it took quite a long time before all French main lines conformed to it, particularly in the west of the country, and full clearance was not achieved until the late 1930s.The gauge thus defined continued to be known officially as the Gabarit passe-partout international, or 'PPI', which translates literally as 'pass everywhere international gauge'. The convention which brought it into use was signed in Berne at the end of the conference mentioned above, hence the unofficial name Berne Convention gauge, shortened to Berne gauge and it came into force on 1 January 1914.

Latterly, long after the the formation of the UIC (International Union of Railways), of which the four main-line railways of Great Britain were members, UIC A gauge was formulated, marginally higher than the PPI gauge. A slightly higher gauge, but still lower than that available in Belgium and Switzerland became UIC B gauge, while the 'Central European' gauge became the UIC C gauge. This is an over-simplification of the process, but is accurate enough for this purpose! All these gauges had identical widths, which stretched from the Spanish to the Soviet or Russian border, except for Scandanavia.

For passenger traffic, the width difference is also relatively unimportant (although for sleeping cars only, the height difference is not; one cannot get three berths one above the other within the BR loading gauge). This is because the way that the UIC gauges are defined creates a far greater reduction in permissible width with increasing length than is initially the case with the BR gauge. Thus while the short-wheelbase four-wheeler goods wagon of yesteryear would be a good foot wider on the mainland than here, the standard 26m-long UIC passenger coach has to be no more than 2,825mm wide. For the imperially minded that is 9ft 3.5in, which is (surprise) exactly the same overall width over door handles as a BR Mk 1 coach.

Where the UIC gauges and the BR gauges mostly differ is in the width allowed below the solebar, continental railways historically had very low platforms so the stock could keep its width practically down to the rail whereas the British railways tended to have higher platforms so limiting the stock width. With the spread of cast iron and steel as a bridge material instead of masonry longitudinal trusses rising up between the tracks were used in many places taking advantage of the reduced width of the rolling stock.

So the answer to the question is in two parts:
  • To permit unrestricted use in the UK of even the smallest UIC loading gauge both these structure gauge constraints will have to be removed
or​
  • if the British structure gauge(s) are to be retained determine whether the the coach body can be reworked to allow the narrowing under the solebar and whether the under-floor equipment can be rearranged to fit the narrower space.
Both cost money!
 
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The Pelican

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One good way of checking if manufacturers would be able to adapt their rolling stock is to see if they make a product for narrow gauge lines. The Metre Gauge train strip across northern Spain, or some of the Swiss narrow gauge lines require their own set of adaptations.
 

Sorcerer

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Not a possible future one, but 373s are essentially French TGVs scaled down to our loading gauge as well.
Another very good example actually, and the seemingly small difference in width is very much visible when you look at the huge platform gaps at stations where it needs two retractable steps.

The issue is that Talgo tilt has the bottom of the vehicle swing out.
I don't think this would be an issue in the UK given tilt won't likely be a factor in rolling stock orders. I think their stock quality might be more of a concern than that as well if the latest high-speed train is anything to go by.

This question calls to mind a thread on the so-called 'Berne Gauge' of some ten or twelve years ago either here or on Usenet. I made some notes at the time which I use here but I'm afraid that I no longer have a record of links to the original threads with the exception of a reference to a Modern Railways article sometime in 1992.

The term 'Berne Gauge' was/is often used to refer to the loading gauge of continental rolling stock but itself was a simplification of the overall situation. The term itself arose from the fact that a conference was held in that city in 1913 which tried to improve on the loading gauge then generally accepted for vehicles in international traffic, without the need for each individual design of vehicle to be submitted to every railway over whose lines it was proposed to run. The original (1891) gauge meant that everyone accepted stock built to the then standard French loading gauge, which was the smallest in mainland Europe as to both width and height. All the other railways had very similar width requirements, and the new gauge was only some 50mm wider.

However the new gauge raised the height by some 130mm, as an attempt to compromise between the French standard and the generally more liberal heights available elsewhere. But it took quite a long time before all French main lines conformed to it, particularly in the west of the country, and full clearance was not achieved until the late 1930s.The gauge thus defined continued to be known officially as the Gabarit passe-partout international, or 'PPI', which translates literally as 'pass everywhere international gauge'. The convention which brought it into use was signed in Berne at the end of the conference mentioned above, hence the unofficial name Berne Convention gauge, shortened to Berne gauge and it came into force on 1 January 1914.

Latterly, long after the the formation of the UIC (International Union of Railways), of which the four main-line railways of Great Britain were members, UIC A gauge was formulated, marginally higher than the PPI gauge. A slightly higher gauge, but still lower than that available in Belgium and Switzerland became UIC B gauge, while the 'Central European' gauge became the UIC C gauge. This is an over-simplification of the process, but is accurate enough for this purpose! All these gauges had identical widths, which stretched from the Spanish to the Soviet or Russian border, except for Scandanavia.

For passenger traffic, the width difference is also relatively unimportant (although for sleeping cars only, the height difference is not; one cannot get three berths one above the other within the BR loading gauge). This is because the way that the UIC gauges are defined creates a far greater reduction in permissible width with increasing length than is initially the case with the BR gauge. Thus while the short-wheelbase four-wheeler goods wagon of yesteryear would be a good foot wider on the mainland than here, the standard 26m-long UIC passenger coach has to be no more than 2,825mm wide. For the imperially minded that is 9ft 3.5in, which is (surprise) exactly the same overall width over door handles as a BR Mk 1 coach.

Where the UIC gauges and the BR gauges mostly differ is in the width allowed below the solebar, continental railways historically had very low platforms so the stock could keep its width practically down to the rail whereas the British railways tended to have higher platforms so limiting the stock width. With the spread of cast iron and steel as a bridge material instead of masonry longitudinal trusses rising up between the tracks were used in many places taking advantage of the reduced width of the rolling stock.

So the answer to the question is in two parts:
  • To permit unrestricted use in the UK of even the smallest UIC loading gauge both these structure gauge constraints will have to be removed
or​
  • if the British structure gauge(s) are to be retained determine whether the the coach body can be reworked to allow the narrowing under the solebar and whether the under-floor equipment can be rearranged to fit the narrower space.
Both cost money!
It's interesting how it's called Berne Gauge despite Switzerland's loading gauge actually being larger. I only learned earlier today that it was named such because that's where it was named. But for the question of platform height, even if the British loading gauge permitted Berne gauge stock, would the 950mm platforms mean a taper at the bottom even with a more rectangular bodyshell compared to the existing pear-shape tapering?

One good way of checking if manufacturers would be able to adapt their rolling stock is to see if they make a product for narrow gauge lines. The Metre Gauge train strip across northern Spain, or some of the Swiss narrow gauge lines require their own set of adaptations.
Well considering the GoldenPass is a fantastic railway I am pleased to know we could squeeze one onto Britain's network. :lol:
 

43096

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It'd be hard to do an actual Talgo with UK high platforms. More likely they'd adapt one of their more conventional products.

The issue is that Talgo tilt has the bottom of the vehicle swing out.
The only possible reason for wanting Talgo to build stock for Britain would be if there was some masochistic need to have a 3-way play-off in the "let's see how abysmal we can make ride quality" competition with Hitachi and CAF.
 

coppercapped

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<SNIP>

It's interesting how it's called Berne Gauge despite Switzerland's loading gauge actually being larger. I only learned earlier today that it was named such because that's where it was named. But for the question of platform height, even if the British loading gauge permitted Berne gauge stock, would the 950mm platforms mean a taper at the bottom even with a more rectangular bodyshell compared to the existing pear-shape tapering?
I'm not sure that I understand your point. Firstly, I presume that when you write about the 'Berne Gauge' you are referring to, in today's context, one of the variants of the UIC's G(abarit)B loading gauge.

Secondly, the issue is not so much the platform height but how far a platform - or any other obstacle such as a bridge girder - is set back from the running rails to allow the stock built to the UIC gauge to pass. On straight track platform height is not so much an issue but it does become one if the track is curved and canted as the stepping distance for passengers may become excessive. This becomes more noticeable the longer the stock and the tighter the curve due to body throw over on the curve.

I suggest that you dig out a drawing of the applicable UIC gauges and superimpose them on drawings of typical UK infrastructure structure gauges to work out the answer to your question.
Well considering the GoldenPass is a fantastic railway I am pleased to know we could squeeze one onto Britain's network. :lol:
 

RUK

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The only possible reason for wanting Talgo to build stock for Britain would be if there was some masochistic need to have a 3-way play-off in the "let's see how abysmal we can make ride quality" competition with Hitachi and CAF.
Or if you just want something cheaper? More competition might drive the prices down.
 

MarkyT

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I don't think this would be an issue in the UK given tilt won't likely be a factor in rolling stock orders. I think their stock quality might be more of a concern than that as well if the latest high-speed train is anything to go by.
Like gauge changing, tilt is an option for trains using the patent split single axle articulated running gear, not an inherent feature. Many non tilt fleets have been supplied; the recent DB ICE-L for example, as well as the troubled Avril.
 

The exile

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Secondly, the issue is not so much the platform height but how far a platform - or any other obstacle such as a bridge girder - is set back from the running rails to allow the stock built to the UIC gauge to pass. On straight track platform height is not so much an issue but it does become one if the track is curved and canted as the stepping distance for passengers may become excessive. This becomes more noticeable the longer the stock and the tighter the curve due to body throw over on the curve.
Though platform height is a significant factor. Central European “low platforms” have no impact on the width of stock as they barely reach above rail height.
 

coppercapped

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Though platform height is a significant factor. Central European “low platforms” have no impact on the width of stock as they barely reach above rail height.
Thank you for the comment but if you had read my earlier post no.5 (found here) you will find that I had already addressed this point:

Where the UIC gauges and the BR gauges mostly differ is in the width allowed below the solebar, continental railways historically had very low platforms so the stock could keep its width practically down to the rail...
 

zwk500

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But for the question of platform height, even if the British loading gauge permitted Berne gauge stock, would the 950mm platforms mean a taper at the bottom even with a more rectangular bodyshell compared to the existing pear-shape tapering?
The platform height is only 1 factor in that answer - the other is in the distance of the platform from the rail. Given that the British Loading Gauge doesn't permit Berne Gauge stock, so really you're talking about defining a new loading gauge.
 
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coppercapped

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The platform height is only 1 factor in that answer - the other is in the distance of the platform from the rail.
Does nobody read earlier posts anymore? In post no. 10 I wrote Quote - Secondly, the issue is not so much the platform height but how far a platform - or any other obstacle such as a bridge girder - is set back from the running rails to allow the stock built to the UIC gauge to pass - end quote
 

Sorcerer

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It's okay, there's room for multiple answers here. What I get from them is that even if Britain had a more generous loading gauge (such as to accommodate bilevel trains) the distance between the platform and rails mean vehicles may very well still have to have a tapered shape at the bottom (though this might make a bilevel train a little too top heavy surely?).

Like gauge changing, tilt is an option for trains using the patent split single axle articulated running gear, not an inherent feature. Many non tilt fleets have been supplied; the recent DB ICE-L for example, as well as the troubled Avril.
Good point actually. I mentioned the ETR 675 in my original post which, despite being a non-tilting train, is still built as if it were one with it's dimensions (it has the same tapered bodyshell as the ETR 610).
 

Bletchleyite

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It's okay, there's room for multiple answers here. What I get from them is that even if Britain had a more generous loading gauge (such as to accommodate bilevel trains) the distance between the platform and rails mean vehicles may very well still have to have a tapered shape at the bottom (though this might make a bilevel train a little too top heavy surely?).

Weight is not shape. A double decker bus weight wise is almost like a triangle profile. Dutch double deck stock sticks out higher up.

The key problem with the platforms are that it's narrow enough that you'd be stuck with 2+1 downstairs (or very cramped seating/narrow aisle).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Good point actually. I mentioned the ETR 675 in my original post which, despite being a non-tilting train, is still built as if it were one with it's dimensions (it has the same tapered bodyshell as the ETR 610).

Plenty of UK stock has a tapered bodyshell without being built to tilt, e.g. Classes 158 and 170 and all the Stadlers. It just handles sway-out on the suspension.
 

Sorcerer

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Plenty of UK stock has a tapered bodyshell without being built to tilt, e.g. Classes 158 and 170 and all the Stadlers. It just handles sway-out on the suspension.
The Pendolinos do look noticeably more tapered though given that they have to be able to tilt both ways within W10 gauge. Most British stock tapers inwards at the end of each coach (including the tilting Super Voyagers) while Pendolinos don't have that distinctive bulge.
 

Nottingham59

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My understanding is that there are a lot of rail vehicles out there that can fit british loading gauge, including high-floor trams on the continent, and narrow-gauge trains from places like Japan.
  • Tyne and Wear Metro cars were based on the German Stadtbahnwagen Typ B tram specification, and ran mostly on converted heavy rail lines
  • Same for the original P86 rolling stock for DLR
  • Manchester Metrolink trams run on the old BR lines out to Bury and Altrincham etc., using vehicles based on German Stadtbahn networks
  • I understand that Hitachi was able to build its A-train designs (class 395, 80x) for british loading gauges because of its experience of building mini-Shinkansen trains for 1067mm lines. (But I'm that familiar with the history here.)
 

MarkyT

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My understanding is that there are a lot of rail vehicles out there that can fit british loading gauge, including high-floor trams on the continent, and narrow-gauge trains from places like Japan.
  • Tyne and Wear Metro cars were based on the German Stadtbahnwagen Typ B tram specification, and ran mostly on converted heavy rail lines
Chassis and running gear very much so. MC added a custom bodyshell a little wider than the German cars to match the UK platform offset, and the cab was redesigned for non-street operations. The floor height of around 950mm was perfect for near-level boarding at UK platforms.
  • Same for the original P86 rolling stock for DLR
Those vehicles moved on to Essen Stadtbahn duties after the DLR, painted yellow and retro-fitted with a pantograph, full driving cabin, and street-legal light clusters.
  • Manchester Metrolink trams run on the old BR lines out to Bury and Altrincham etc., using vehicles based on German Stadtbahn networks
Metrolink is definitely based on typical high-floor 'Stadtbahn' practice, also that of many modern US light rail systems. They initially chose Ansaldo trams, however, rather than German products...
  • I understand that Hitachi was able to build its A-train designs (class 395, 80x) for british loading gauges because of its experience of building mini-Shinkansen trains for 1067mm lines. (But I'm that familiar with the history here.)
The A train series was originally developed domestically as a narrow gauge technical 'platform' for limited express and commuter trains in Japan. The loading gauge of the cape gauge lines is very similar to our UK standard gauge profile, including the high, closely set platform edge. Various front-end treatments are available and some Japanese A trains have noses quite similar to recent UK models.
 
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