Why people are so stuborn not using their ticket but rather showing to staff to open gates?

[AngryPanda]

Hi,

On daily basis we see on many stations staff asking people to put the ticket through the ticket machine and people always argue and treat staff rude.
Most of the ticket used are for one journey, or even if it is a travel card or a gold card, staff have right to ask to use ticket on the gate before allowing you to travel.

TFL's Conditions of Carriage states;

5.1.6 Duty to insert printed ticket into ticket gates. You must insert your printed ticket into the ticket gate, where available, at the start and end of a Tube, DLR, London Overground, or National Rail journey.

5.1.7 Duty to show printed tickets. At stations where there are no ticket gates, or where the ticket gates are open or not in use, and on buses and trams, you must be prepared to show your printed ticket (and photocard, if needed) to a member of staff before starting or ending your journey. You must let a member of staff or a Police Officer examine it at any time during your journey if they ask you to do so. If you fail to do so, you may be liable to pay a penalty fare or you may be prosecuted.

What is wrong with most NR travellers that do not respect TFL's Conditions of Carriage and treat staff disrespectfully? If you would be asked to put your gold card through the gate how you would react?

 

[eoff]

What is wrong with most NR travellers that do not respect TFL's Conditions of Carriage ....

Possibly because some people take the Elizabeth line to be a NR service and know nothing of extra terms from TFL.
It would not be clear to me if they apply (for example their break of journey rules mentioned elsewhere in these forums where an FOI response indicates NRCoT apply for NR tickets).

 

[Hadders]

There are an increasing number of ticket gates at LU stations where mag stripe ticket acceptance is out of order.

 

[Russel]

There are an increasing number of ticket gates at LU stations where mag stripe ticket acceptance is out of order.

Yeah this, I used a travel card yesterday for the first time in a couple of years and was surprised by just how many barriers wouldn't let me insert the ticket.

Had a couple of people walk into the back of me as they wasn't expecting me to stop at the barrier because it didn't open as expected.

 

[jfollows]

I don’t have a problem with using the gate reader even though I know it won’t work, for example most of the time with an All Line Rover. I simply choose a gate adjacent to the human-operated gate, and give it to them when it doesn’t work as expected. They spend their time being bored with thousands of tickets so that’s OK, not my problem, but not a reason to be rude to them.

 

[PeterC]

I have seen people tapping mag stripe tickets on the card pad. Having said that I have never noticed a regular issue with passengers refusing to use the ticket gates.

Is this people travelling from ungated NR Stations wanting to get out, tourists not used to public transport trying to get in or paper travelcards where the mag stripe degrades before expiry.

 

[barringtoncem]

One day Travelcards i have found in my experience rarely open the barriers despite me keeping the travelcard away from a mobile phone and even if i use the help point it never is answered or the station staff are nowhere to be found

 

[Russel]

One day Travelcards i have found in my experience rarely open the barriers despite me keeping the travelcard away from a mobile phone and even if i use the help point it never is answered or the station staff are nowhere to be found

I've found the ticket won't physically go into the barriers to read, yesterday at multiple stations.

As I said easlier, it's the first time I've used a paper travel card in a few years so not sure how long it's been an issue.

 

[positron]

For one thing delay repay requires you keep your ticket so I have to do the dance of keeping my paper ones quite often (as the railway is delayed more than 15 minutes quite often). Most of the time the staff are absolutely fine with that, a handful have protested a bit (seemingly didn't know what delay repay was even) but ultimately let you though.

Other than that I have had one bus driver who seemed to think you needed the train ticket AND plus bus ticket for it to be valid. So if that's a belief held in certain areas it might be easier for people to just routinely keep their train tickets.

Like others have said (especially around London) I've also experienced plenty of gates that reject valid tickets too.

Obviously the plus bus one is niche so it's probably not the cause.

But I don't think it's quite black and white that the customer is always being annoying just because they show a ticket rather than insert it.

Edit: I've realised that this was about London underground so the plusbus bit is extra not relevant. I think the other two still are though.

 

[Failed Unit]

It also depends on your situation, we all know the tickets that never open the gates, such as “London Terminals - Anywhere on Great Northern” at kings cross, so there is little point in trying. Likewise at most stations carnets don’t open barriers, so why bother? Travelcards are hit and miss to if they open the barriers. I am sure railcard users also frequently get stopped. I try one, if it fails I don’t again.

 

[Titfield]

I often have mag stripe tickets and have a railcard. Invariably the barrier does not open and I have to seek a member of staff. This isn’t a problem at most stations but at the busy London terminals it frustrates other passengers who don’t like the smooth flow being interrupted.

 

[Russel]

For one thing delay repay requires you keep your ticket so I have to do the dance of keeping my paper ones quite often (as the railway is delayed more than 15 minutes quite often). Most of the time the staff are absolutely fine with that, a handful have protested a bit (seemingly didn't know what delay repay was even) but ultimately let you though.

London Underground gates don't retain tickets, so why would this be a reason?

 

[farfromhome]

I would very much prefer to use the gates at Glasgow QS but my tickets all week (printed at Arbroath TVM) before I left for the week with tickets between GQS and Shettleston not working in or out of gates - dates are perfectly fine and direction of travel too.
This has caused me a small delay each day and on Friday, staff stood talking to what seemed like friends (certainly wasn't rail based conversations) ignoring me and I nearly missed the train with my colleagues on it because they just did not notice me waiting to be seen (they were on other side of barrier and a train incoming had arrived and they ended up getting priority.

So, tickets not working happens too.

 

[bramling]

Hi,

On daily basis we see on many stations staff asking people to put the ticket through the ticket machine and people always argue and treat staff rude.
Most of the ticket used are for one journey, or even if it is a travel card or a gold card, staff have right to ask to use ticket on the gate before allowing you to travel.

TFL's Conditions of Carriage states;

5.1.6 Duty to insert printed ticket into ticket gates. You must insert your printed ticket into the ticket gate, where available, at the start and end of a Tube, DLR, London Overground, or National Rail journey.

5.1.7 Duty to show printed tickets. At stations where there are no ticket gates, or where the ticket gates are open or not in use, and on buses and trams, you must be prepared to show your printed ticket (and photocard, if needed) to a member of staff before starting or ending your journey. You must let a member of staff or a Police Officer examine it at any time during your journey if they ask you to do so. If you fail to do so, you may be liable to pay a penalty fare or you may be prosecuted.

What is wrong with most NR travellers that do not respect TFL's Conditions of Carriage and treat staff disrespectfully? If you would be asked to put your gold card through the gate how you would react?

One reason is that some people will have arrangements where they can claim some form of reimbursement from their employer on single or return tickets. This is particularly a thing since Covid where people don’t use season tickets as much. Clearly people aren’t going to want to put a single in the gate if this results in it being swallowed, which ultimately is going to cause more hassle for the staff in having to recover it.

Another potential reason is that repeatedly removing paper season tickets from wallets can cause them to wear prematurely. It can either damage the magnetic strip, or in some cases wipe the printed data off the front of the ticket. This then results in the hassle of having to have the ticket replaced.

Thirdly they may have a ticket that they know isn’t going to work the gates. My local station seems to reject valid tickets pretty much half of the time, and infuriatingly it always seems to be when one is in a hurry. People aren’t going to want to waste time trying the gates if they know the ticket isn’t going to work.

I suspect that many people will take the view that having a member of staff, or in some cases multiple staff, positioned and spending a lot of their time not doing a great deal means it’s not unreasonable to be able to manually show their ticket in either of the above scenarios, hence they might become arsey if the member of staff is awkward which could quite reasonably be seen as unreasonable and unnecessary.

 

[positron]

London Underground gates don't retain tickets, so why would this be a reason?

Well I didn't know that? So how many others are just used to the fact that they need to manually show in that scenario and not realise the underground is different.

 

[PeterC]

Well I didn't know that? So how many others are just used to the fact that they need to manually show in that scenario and not realise the underground is different.

I didn't know either

 

[yorksrob]

I don't think that London Overground or the Elizabeth line should have different conditions of travel than the rest of the National network, full stop.

 

[Mawkie]

London Underground gates don't retain tickets, so why would this be a reason?

Don't they? Is that a recent change? I certainly remember emptying the gateline bins on LU. And fishing single tickets out that people needed for work receipts.

 

[Benjwri]

I don't think that London Overground or the Elizabeth line should have different conditions of travel than the rest of the National network, full stop.

Why? The normal conditions of travel also apply. I don’t think it’s unreasonable for a company to impose further rules on their services. What actually differences are there? Many of TfL’s are not usually enforced.

 

[eoff]

Why? The normal conditions of travel also apply. I don’t think it’s unreasonable for a company to impose further rules on their services. What actually differences are there? Many of TfL’s are not usually enforced.

See https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/break-of-journey-along-elizabeth-line.291014/

 

[Benjwri]

See https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/break-of-journey-along-elizabeth-line.291014/

Which doesn’t matter because it’s now barred in the NRCoT anyways?

 

[yorksrob]

Which doesn’t matter because it’s now barred in the NRCoT anyways?

So if you've got a London - Oxford return, you can break your journey at Tilehurst, but not at Twyford, which seems a fairly silly and pointless impediment on passengers.

 

[Edvid]

So if you've got a London - Oxford return, you can break your journey at Tilehurst, but not at Twyford, which seems a fairly silly and pointless impediment on passengers.

The Lizzie BoJ restriction doesn't apply to the entire line. It applies to Paddington - Stratford / Abbey Wood.

16.5 Tickets valid for travel across London using Transport for London services do not entitle you to break your journey on London Underground, the Elizabeth line between London Paddington and Stratford and between London Paddington and Abbey Wood and/or the Docklands Light Railway, unless your Ticket is a Season Ticket or a travelcard covering the Zones in which you are travelling.

 

[mmh]

London Underground gates don't retain tickets, so why would this be a reason?

Because people have experienced other ticket gates retaining their tickets.

 

[yorksrob]

The Lizzie BoJ restriction doesn't apply to the entire line. It applies to Paddington - Stratford / Abbey Wood.

Well, that's not too bad then !

 

[Tubeboy]

LU gatelines do retain some tickets, single journeys for example.

 

[trainJam]

Sometimes I need to use station facilities: ticket office (not sure if LU still have them), toilet, shop, grab a leaflet/map, ATM, coffee etc.

The barriers sometimes go funny if you pass through too many times too quickly so the ticket is unlikely to work.

 

[Snow1964]

It also depends on your situation, we all know the tickets that never open the gates, such as “London Terminals - Anywhere on Great Northern” at kings cross, so there is little point in trying. Likewise at most stations carnets don’t open barriers, so why bother? Travelcards are hit and miss to if they open the barriers. I am sure railcard users also frequently get stopped. I try one, if it fails I don’t again.

I think that is another reason, if ticket wouldn't open a gate earlier in journey (even if it was rejected for say a manual check because railcard needs to be shown), there is an assumption by most passengers that same ticket wont open any subsequent barriers encountered during their journey either.

So if journey involves say 4 barriers, (start, 2 cross London, exit station), and first barrier rejects, then passenger is probably not going to waste time trying the other at subsequent barriers, but will go straight to manned barrier instead.

Basically the failure to program barriers to accept valid tickets early in a journey is likely to mean all subsequent barriers (even those on return) are going to be treated as needing manual checking.

So if want to avoid people going straight to manual gates, got to fix the problem of valid tickets being rejected, even if that means expensively programming obscure tickets (or simplifying ticket variations to the gate capacity)

 

[mmh]

Thankfully the railway is solving this problem with optically scanned tickets which don't open the gates instead.

 

[Benjwri]

and first barrier rejects, then passenger is probably not going to waste time trying the other at subsequent barriers, but will go straight to manned barrier instead.

Yes definitely agree with this. When I lived in Battersea the ticket machines produced tickets which failed to open the barriers. I would always try it the first time, but after that I wasn't going to waste my time every other time I used something like a travelcard. Of course if the staff wanted me to try I would oblige.