Stopgap options to cover for delays to introduction of Class 810 for EMR?

[dk1]

So good to hear of the improving situation on the Midland Main Line.

 

[Failed Unit]

Maybe part of the objective of EMR (sub-) leasing the Voyagers would be to accelerate the cascade of the Meridians to Lumo and Scotrail, rather than them being short term cover for unavailable Meridians and Auroras.

I doubt it, the EMR staff training just would not be worthwhile. Even if they were not back to full service until Christmas, I can‘t see training on Voyagers will get back to full service any quicker.

I hope there will be some kind of lessons learnt on this, surely the ROSCO should have stepped in and demanded the 222s were not ran into the ground, as Lumo are also suffering from the neglect. Although I would have expected the ROSCO would want the units back at the end of the lease in the same condition as they got them.

 

[Wolfie]

I doubt it, the EMR staff training just would not be worthwhile. Even if they were not back to full service until Christmas, I can‘t see training on Voyagers will get back to full service any quicker.

I hope there will be some kind of lessons learnt on this, surely the ROSCO should have stepped in and demanded the 222s were not ran into the ground, as Lumo are also suffering from the neglect. Although I would have expected the ROSCO would want the units back at the end of the lease in the same condition as they got them.

If leased goods are returned in poor condition penalty charges/payments generally follow.

The interesting question is how those penalties compare with the cost of proper maintenance.

 

[Peter Sarf]

If leased goods are returned in poor condition penalty charges/payments generally follow.

The interesting question is how those penalties compare with the cost of proper maintenance.

I suppose Hitachi might be liable for those penalty payments ?.

 

[Failed Unit]

Depends on why - I get the impression that to keep things simple the 222s are not getting the maintenance they need, so if a part needs changing as a precaution every 10000 miles, because they are going they do it at 12000 (or not at all) as it is someone else’s problem. Granted they didn’t know how long the 222s would still be needed for.

 

[D365]

Depends on why - I get the impression that to keep things simple the 222s are not getting the maintenance they need, so if a part needs changing as a precaution every 10000 miles, because they are going they do it at 12000 (or not at all) as it is someone else’s problem. Granted they didn’t know how long the 222s would still be needed for.

Routine maintenance will only be deferred if it can be empirically demonstrated that this will not compromise operational safety.

 

[Russel]

If leased goods are returned in poor condition penalty charges/payments generally follow.

The interesting question is how those penalties compare with the cost of proper maintenance.

Another question is where do those payments go when received by the ROSCO, shareholders or actually spent on rectifying the myriad of faults EMR have handed them back with?

 

[Wolfie]

Another question is where do those payments go when received by the ROSCO, shareholders or actually spent on rectifying the myriad of faults EMR have handed them back with?

It should be the latter. Any new lessor isn't going to be happy to take them unrepaired and trashed.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Sep 2026 ==

I suppose Hitachi might be liable for those penalty payments ?.

All depends on what their contract with EMR says. Only EMR has a contractual relationship with the ROSCO.

 

[43102EMR]

It should be the latter. Any new lessor isn't going to be happy to take them unrepaired and trashed.

Lumo even admitted in an interview with RAIL they were frustrated with the condition their Meridians arrived in, which was much worse than expected. Can imagine Scotrail will be making similar complaints when their 22 eventually arrive…

 

[dk1]

Lumo even admitted in an interview with RAIL they were frustrated with the condition their Meridians arrived in, which was much worse than expected. Can imagine Scotrail will be making similar complaints when their 22 eventually arrive…

I suppose though it won’t be such a rush to get them in traffic with Scotrail and they are expected to have a proper refurb first. At least they now know what to expect.

 

[Wolfie]

Lumo even admitted in an interview with RAIL they were frustrated with the condition their Meridians arrived in, which was much worse than expected. Can imagine Scotrail will be making similar complaints when their 22 eventually arrive…

I'd imagine Lumo wanted them fast but has also demanded financial compensation as the trains are not fit for purpose as delivered.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I'd imagine Lumo wanted them fast but has also demanded financial compensation as the trains are not fit for purpose as delivered.

Oh the joys of buying secondhand.

It is also a challenge that when a TOC wants some new trains they are totally committed. Its not like a car where your might hand your (new to you) car back to the dealer if it is bad enough and look for a replacement from the vast pool of cars on dealers forecourts or private sales. TOCs are so much more dependent on trains being delivered fit for purpose and, because they are so much more complicated, bespoke and in small batches, the chances of problems are so much greater.

I suppose that is why I would steer clear of half a dozen 221s used as a stop gap. Just more complications. Perhaps it would work if the ROSCO for these spare 221s was 100% responsible for the maintenance of them and therefore could look after them well enough for the next TOC (Cross Country) to be confident the 221s would not be in a terrible state. Certainly would not trust EMR and/or Hitachi with the ongoing maintenance of these spare 221s.

I feel another risk is we do not really know what state these spare 221s are in ?.

 

[Wolfie]

Oh the joys of buying secondhand.

It is also a challenge that when a TOC wants some new trains they are totally committed. Its not like a car where your might hand your (new to you) car back to the dealer if it is bad enough and look for a replacement from the vast pool of cars on dealers forecourts or private sales. TOCs are so much more dependent on trains being delivered fit for purpose and, because they are so much more complicated, bespoke and in small batches, the chances of problems are so much greater.

I suppose that is why I would steer clear of half a dozen 221s used as a stop gap. Just more complications. Perhaps it would work if the ROSCO for these spare 221s was 100% responsible for the maintenance of them and therefore could look after them well enough for the next TOC (Cross Country) to be confident the 221s would not be in a terrible state. Certainly would not trust EMR and/or Hitachi with the ongoing maintenance of these spare 221s.

I feel another risk is we do not really know what state these spare 221s are in ?.

Of course, a TOC isn't buying second hand, it's leasing used trains. The ROSCO must surely be contractually responsible for ensuring that they are delivered usable. Unless, of course, the lease rate is adjusted to reflect the risk....

I agree the rest of your post. Given that Hitachi appear to struggle to maintain their own products why would anyone trust them to maintain trains from other manufacturers?

 

[Peter Sarf]

Of course, a TOC isn't buying second hand, it's leasing used trains. The ROSCO must surely be contractually responsible for ensuring that they are delivered usable. Unless, of course, the lease rate is adjusted to reflect the risk....

I agree the rest of your post. Given that Hitachi appear to struggle to maintain their own products why would anyone trust them to maintain trains from other manufacturers?

Yes, forgot to cover that. The trains in the UK are almost always leased (only exception that springs to mind is the Mk4 coaches TfW own and operate).

In the case of these spare 221s I should imagine EMR will not be interested in half a dozen bargain basement 221s anyway of course. The ROSCO will have to be confident that they are in tip top condition both before going to EMR and less so upon return (if EMR are allowed to maintain them).

It has been covered before but asking a depot to maintain the existing outgoing fleet and look after the incoming new fleet is often a challenge in terms of capacity. Worse still if the outgoing fleet is unexpectedly needed to last longer due to problems with the new fleet. There will have been a planned run down of the existing (222) fleet that has overrrun. So dropping 221s on Etches Park would be a no-no.

 

[Failed Unit]

Of course, a TOC isn't buying second hand, it's leasing used trains. The ROSCO must surely be contractually responsible for ensuring that they are delivered usable. Unless, of course, the lease rate is adjusted to reflect the risk....

I agree the rest of your post. Given that Hitachi appear to struggle to maintain their own products why would anyone trust them to maintain trains from other manufacturers?

It is also what degree are the letting things run down. Absolutely if it is safety critical it will be done. However we have all done it when you get an advisory on a car. “That bracket has some play on it” - “Is it safe?” - “It is for now but you are going to need replace it in the next year”. I expect that with EMR knowing they are handing them back, the ROSCO can’t really complain as it is wear and tear. They are just getting lots of it.

It is a common situation when you get trains from the ROSCO, look at what East Midlands Trains got when stagecoach started the franchise. Likewise the 156s when they came from greater anglia needed a lot of TLC (which came from the same parent company) I expect if you hand it back to the ROSCO and it works they are happy.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Sep 2026 ==

Yes, forgot to cover that. The trains in the UK are almost always leased (only exception that springs to mind is the Mk4 coaches TfW own and operate).

In the case of these spare 221s I should imagine EMR will not be interested in half a dozen bargain basement 221s anyway of course. The ROSCO will have to be confident that they are in tip top condition both before going to EMR and less so upon return (if EMR are allowed to maintain them).

It has been covered before but asking a depot to maintain the existing outgoing fleet and look after the incoming new fleet is often a challenge in terms of capacity. Worse still if the outgoing fleet is unexpectedly needed to last longer due to problems with the new fleet. There will have been a planned run down of the existing (222) fleet that has overrrun. So dropping 221s on Etches Park would be a no-no.

When you think of the 221s.- I think of the situation with the 379s, I am sure they were all good when they went into storage. (Well mostly)

 

[Peter Sarf]

It is also what degree are the letting things run down. Absolutely if it is safety critical it will be done. However we have all done it when you get an advisory on a car. “That bracket has some play on it” - “Is it safe?” - “It is for now but you are going to need replace it in the next year”. I expect that with EMR knowing they are handing them back, the ROSCO can’t really complain as it is wear and tear. They are just getting lots of it.

It is a common situation when you get trains from the ROSCO, look at what East Midlands Trains got when stagecoach started the franchise. Likewise the 156s when they came from greater anglia needed a lot of TLC (which came from the same parent company) I expect if you hand it back to the ROSCO and it works they are happy.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Sep 2026 ==


When you think of the 221s.- I think of the situation with the 379s, I am sure they were all good when they went into storage. (Well mostly)

Indeed. I have lost track of how long these spare 221s have been languishing in sidings. I think the 379s were a lot longer in store and it shows !.

It is ironic that Lumo and Scotrail are waiting for these 222s so they are not hanging around in store some where and getting out of condition but still end up in a state !. Hopefully, for them, a maintenance backlog is easier to deal with than the effects of prolonged storage. I suspect invisible and unexpected problems from long term stored vehicles. For example once the damp gets into the wiring all sorts of problems occur (as seen in out of use cars). It is why I would be very desperate before relying on these spare 221s.

 

[AndrewE]

Indeed. I have lost track of how long these spare 221s have been languishing in sidings. I think the 379s were a lot longer in store and it shows !.

It is ironic that Lumo and Scotrail are waiting for these 222s so they are not hanging around in store some where and getting out of condition but still end up in a state !. Hopefully, for them, a maintenance backlog is easier to deal with than the effects of prolonged storage. I suspect invisible and unexpected problems from long term stored vehicles. For example once the damp gets into the wiring all sorts of problems occur (as seen in out of use cars). It is why I would be very desperate before relying on these spare 221s.

but XC are very desperate...

 

[Peter Sarf]

but XC are very desperate...

In which case why are these 221s even being considered for EMR ?.

 

[Halish Railway]

In which case why are these 221s even being considered for EMR ?.

Because XC don’t serve London.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Because XC don’t serve London.

Behave

 

[Failed Unit]

In which case why are these 221s even being considered for EMR ?.

That to be honest is a good question. They are available is really all you can say. But the driver training, chance of things failing when because of the time in store would be a massive gamble (using the 170s may have being a safer option). However this doesn’t look like it is needed anymore, more 810s are getting put into service all the time. Hopefully they are learning from the earlier sets that some of them come out of the factory with working doors etc.

 

[Wyrleybart]

It really depends if the recurring problems the 810s reportedly have get ironed out by the modifications. I think we will be waiting to see how 810017, 910019 & 810020 (which are apparently modified) fare when they come into service.

Would it not make more sense for those three units to be handed over to EMR at the same service level the others are at, and modify those like 004 and 004 which have not yet entered service with EMR with the mods./ Surely, if EMR are accepting 810013 into traffic everyday then 017 019 and 020 should be equally serviceable.

Is there any sign of 810002 at Newton Aycliffe or has it been melted down and another constructed ?

 

[800001]

Would it not make more sense for those three units to be handed over to EMR at the same service level the others are at, and modify those like 004 and 004 which have not yet entered service with EMR with the mods./ Surely, if EMR are accepting 810013 into traffic everyday then 017 019 and 020 should be equally serviceable.

Is there any sign of 810002 at Newton Aycliffe or has it been melted down and another constructed ?

No sign of 002.

If 017/019 and 020 have had mods they will want to get them working asap and then roll out to rest.

004 is a long way from entering service that is in the back of the queue at the factory and will be one of last to enter service.

 

[DDB]

The only way the 221 have even a chance of helping is if they are maintained at Central Rivers so they don't add an even greater burden to EMRs depot space and depot staff. Even then it is vital that no EMR staff are poached to work on them.

 

[duffield]

EMR's latest update has just been issued to Stakeholders this morning, see; https://eastmidlandsrailway.newswea...xnlw1f3wzioz?lang=en&a=6&p=13337927&t=4918378

See this bit "including the potential to lease additional trains". Unless XC get them first?

I hope that increase from 92% to 96% includes the 1605 departure from St. Pancras to Nottingham. I keep hitting that, and of course it means the 1635 is overcrowded. For some reason it's been scheduled in the STP as an ECS move from Wednesday to Friday this week although only one of the three instances actually ran.

 

[Peter Sarf]

That to be honest is a good question. They are available is really all you can say. But the driver training, chance of things failing when because of the time in store would be a massive gamble (using the 170s may have being a safer option). However this doesn’t look like it is needed anymore, more 810s are getting put into service all the time. Hopefully they are learning from the earlier sets that some of them come out of the factory with working doors etc.

That is my hope. That progress is being made with the 810s problems. We are expecting 810017, 81019 and 810020 to be up to the latest level of "improvement" so when these enter service we will see if they are better. I note that NO extra 810s have entered service for quite a while. So when deliveries start to be accepted again I hope these three very quickly prove themselves.

It s possible that three of the worst performing 810s get removed from EMR to make space for the "improved" trio. I mean if space in terms of maintenance capacity is short. Which is where 221s maintained at Central Rivers becomes an option.

The only way the 221 have even a chance of helping is if they are maintained at Central Rivers so they don't add an even greater burden to EMRs depot space and depot staff. Even then it is vital that no EMR staff are poached to work on them.

Very true. After all the main reason EMR is in a mess is because Etches Park have been expected to cope with too much. So giving them 221s to look after would be counter productive.

 

[duffield]

That is my hope. That progress is being made with the 810s problems. We are expecting 810017, 81019 and 810020 to be up to the latest level of "improvement" so when these enter service we will see if they are better. I note that NO extra 810s have entered service for quite a while. So when deliveries start to be accepted again I hope these three very quickly prove themselves.

It s possible that three of the worst performing 810s get removed from EMR to make space for the "improved" trio. I mean if space in terms of maintenance capacity is short. Which is where 221s maintained at Central Rivers becomes an option.

Very true. After all the main reason EMR is in a mess is because Etches Park have been expected to cope with too much. So giving them 221s to look after would be counter productive.

If the 221s are going to XC anyhow, sooner or later, I guess that means that Central Rivers at least has the capacity to look after them?

 

[43096]

Lumo even admitted in an interview with RAIL they were frustrated with the condition their Meridians arrived in, which was much worse than expected. Can imagine Scotrail will be making similar complaints when their 22 eventually arrive…

Perhaps Lumo should have done some due diligence then. Makes me laugh when a TOC says they're much worse than expected - perhaps send someout out to go and travel on them with their current operator; that would give a fair idea of train condition for passenger facing items. See also GWR and the 175s.

 

[LowLevel]

Lumo even admitted in an interview with RAIL they were frustrated with the condition their Meridians arrived in, which was much worse than expected. Can imagine Scotrail will be making similar complaints when their 22 eventually arrive…

Ha! The state they are in is obvious. They've had staff training on them whilst they've been in traffic for ages.

 

[3RDGEN]

Perhaps Lumo should have done some due diligence then. Makes me laugh when a TOC says they're much worse than expected - perhaps send someout out to go and travel on them with their current operator; that would give a fair idea of train condition for passenger facing items. See also GWR and the 175s.

Spot on, everyone knew the units had been rundown so why didn't LUMO get Alstom to go over the units before signing the contract to accept them, start paying the leasing fees and use them?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Sep 2026 ==

If the 221s are going to XC anyhow, sooner or later, I guess that means that Central Rivers at least has the capacity to look after them?

They maintained the full 220/221 fleet historically so that and a few 222's shouldn't be an issue, the LUMO 222's and the GC 2 * 221's are part maintained elsewhere anyway.