Station overrun - curious about how 'serious' it is considered

[Tester]

I found it very interesting when riding high-frequency metro services in Tokyo, that a very minor overrun was corrected with a very quick reversing move to the correct position. I presume this was done from the front cab as I would be surprised if there were somebody in the rear cab.

In most cases there will be a guard in the rear cab.

 

[Annetts key]

As we passed the end of the platform at Three Bridges I could see the signal there was at red.

Things I'm curious about are:

• Did we actually pass a signal at danger or would I just have seen it red as my window passed the signal because it would have changed to red when the front of the train passed it and occupied the next bit of track? (I was seated in the second-from-front carriage.)

The controls that determine when a signal that was showing a proceed aspect goes back to red, depend on a number of factors.

Most 'controlled' signals will go back to red when the first set of wheels of the train travel into the track circuit or axle counter section just after (beyond) the signal. This section is called the overlap.

An overlap is normally a requirement for lines signalled for passenger trains. The distance between the signal and the start of this 'overlap' track circuit or axle counter section can be as little as 10cm. Yes, four inches. Or it could be two or three metres (yards).

Either way, by the time that the second coach passes the signal, it's going to be red.

About the only time that this does not apply to a 'controlled' signal, is that when the signalling system was designed, operations specified that they wanted the signal to have special 'last wheel replacement' controls.

These were normally only required if long trains would call at the station and the locomotive would have to stop after (beyond) the signal for station duties. Or where there were (frequent) shunting moves where a train would be propelled by the loco at the rear of the train.

The deliberate intention is for the signal to continue to show a proceed aspect until most or all of the train (depending on its length) has passed the signal.

These days, these special controls are fairly rare.

Outside of areas where controlled signals are used (junctions, protecting level crossings, large busy complex stations) on plain line, you will find 'automatic' signals. These normally work automatically without needing any input from the signaller. Indeed, on older signalling systems, the signaller may have no control of many of this type.

With these, normally there is no separate overlap section. Instead the approach (also called the berth) section and the overlap section are combined into one longer section. The next track circuit / axle counter section will normally commence between 183 metres (200 yards) and 274 metres (300 yards) (approximately) beyond the signal. Only when a train gets to this section will the signal to back to red.

This is long enough for passengers to see the signal showing a proceed aspect from the second coach (or maybe from even further back).

In the past, automatic signals were fitted with an automatic signal plate / sign, but the railway rules have changed and there is no longer a requirement for these plates / signs to be provided (the rule change makes them no longer relevant).

 

[bnsf734]

My niece was a passenger on 1H28 1513 London Euston to Manchester Piccadilly on Thursday 10 September 2026, intending to get off at Nuneaton at 1609. Unfortunately that train failed to stop in the platform at Nuneaton and did not stop until Ashby Junction, where they decided what to do next. Options included staying on the train until its next stop at Stoke on Trent or stopping additionally at Tamworth, which was the selected option. Realtime Trains shows Tamworth as a passing time but it shows a move to the Slow Line at Amington Junction, the train then stopped and the Nuneaton passengers were allowed to detrain. Fast Line was then rejoined at Lichfield. I'm not sure what happened to the passengers waiting at Nuneaton, presumably they had a wait until the next train North.

She would have had to wait for the Crewe to Euston train at 1656 and finally got off at Nuneaton at 1710. Delay Repay claim has already gone in!

 

[Haywain]

Realtime Trains shows Tamworth as a passing time but the train did stop

Because it wasn't a booked call.

 

[Vexed]

Realtime Trains shows Tamworth as a passing time but the train did stop

Delay Repay would be decided based on the information in Darwin, which shows Nuneaton as cancelled and Tamworth as an additional stop.

1H28 London Euston → Manchester Piccadilly · 10 Sep 2026 — Darwin Browser

Full operating history of UK National Rail service 1H28 (London Euston → Manchester Piccadilly) on 10 Sep 2026, operated by VT. This service was cancelled. Replay every Darwin message, forecast, platform change and delay on an interactive timeline.

darwinbrowser.com

 

[Oxfordblues]

My father was a fireman at South Dock shed in Sunderland in the early-1940s, mostly working local passenger trains. One day his driver gave him a go at the controls to give him some experience of accelerating and braking. My dad completely misjudged the braking distance for one station and overshot the platform. Undeterred the driver simply reversed the train to the required stopping-point. No contact was made with the signalbox, but my father wasn't asked to drive again!

 

[Haywain]

Undeterred the driver simply reversed the train to the required stopping-point. No contact was made with the signalbox,

Fortunately, we now operate to much higher standards of safety.

 

[Horizon22]

My niece was a passenger on 1H28 1513 London Euston to Manchester Piccadilly on Thursday 10 September 2026, intending to get off at Nuneaton at 1609. Unfortunately that train failed to stop in the platform at Nuneaton and did not stop until Ashby Junction, where they decided what to do next. Options included staying on the train until its next stop at Stoke on Trent or stopping additionally at Tamworth, which was the selected option. Realtime Trains shows Tamworth as a passing time but it shows a move to the Slow Line at Amington Junction, the train then stopped and the Nuneaton passengers were allowed to detrain. Fast Line was then rejoined at Lichfield. I'm not sure what happened to the passengers waiting at Nuneaton, presumably they had a wait until the next train North.

She would have had to wait for the Crewe to Euston train at 1656 and finally got off at Nuneaton at 1710. Delay Repay claim has already gone in!

This sounds more like a decision to run non stop as opposed to a ‘fail to call’.

The difference is the former is an advertised (if all goes as intended!) and planned decision as part of service recovery, the latter was an unplanned error that was not a booked amendment to the train plan.

 

[Haywain]

This sounds more like a decision to run non stop as opposed to a ‘fail to call’.

I disagree - the stop in the vicinity of Ashby Junction strongly suggests that the driver realised too late that they should be stopping, and there was a 'emergency' arrangement to call at Tamworth.

 

[SteveHFC]

I may have posted about this before, but about a year ago, I was on a Thameslink train that failed to stop at Harpenden. We shuddered to a stop some distance beyond the station, and without any announcement continued on to St Albans about 5 minutes later where those wanting Harpenden got off. We were then due to run non-stop to St Pancras, but we made an unscheduled stop at West Hampstead Thameslink where we were all asked to leave the train as the train was being taken out of service. About 10 minutes later the train trundled off towards Kentish Town out of service (and on looking at RTT at the time continued to Three Bridges out of service) with the same driver.

 

[Horizon22]

I disagree - the stop in the vicinity of Ashby Junction strongly suggests that the driver realised too late that they should be stopping, and there was a 'emergency' arrangement to call at Tamworth.

Possibly, it could be either/or but also may have come to a stand for other reasons.

 

[gatters]

I found it very interesting when riding high-frequency metro services in Tokyo, that a very minor overrun was corrected with a very quick reversing move to the correct position. I presume this was done from the front cab as I would be surprised if there were somebody in the rear cab.

this is allowed on the London Underground with signaller or control permission for a spad or platform overrun of less than 1 carriage. Chiltern trains may also set back under these circumstances on LUL infrastructure, a very, very rare example of where driving from other than the leading cab is allowed in passenger service

 

[Fenchurch SP]

And also, as mentioned, GTR may have a "forward only" policy following a 'fail to call' incident.

It happened today on 9J09 at Merstham. After stopping beyond the station the driver immediately apologised and we continued to Redhill. Looking at RTT the train continued as normal except for a couple of minutes delay at Horley.

 

[voyagerdude220]

This sounds more like a decision to run non stop as opposed to a ‘fail to call’.

The difference is the former is an advertised (if all goes as intended!) and planned decision as part of service recovery, the latter was an unplanned error that was not a booked amendment to the train plan.

Nope. It was definitely a fail to call.

The Driver only remembered about the Nuneaton call much later than they'd normally start slowing down the train, hence the train coming to a stand north of the Station.

Avanti made contact with Network Rail to route the train into the platform at Tamworth so pax intending to leave the train at Nuneaton could get a connecting train back to Nuneaton.

I know Train Crew obviously have their stopping patterns clearly displayed on paperwork they have with them, but I guess the changes to the stopping patterns of the Manchester trains doesn't help, given that before the stopping patterns were changed a few years ago, the Manchester trains were faster and had fewer stops.

Originally southbound they used to be:

Stockport Macclesfield Stoke
Stockport Wilmslow Crewe
Stockport Stoke Milton Keynes

Now the first one additionally calls at Rugby and Milton Keynes Central.

The second one calls additionally at Stafford.

The third one doesn't stop Milton Keynes anymore and calls at Nuneaton instead.


(Sorry off topic!)

 

[Sheridan]

Nope. It was definitely a fail to call.

The Driver only remembered about the Nuneaton call much later than they'd normally start slowing down the train, hence the train coming to a stand north of the Station.

Avanti made contact with Network Rail to route the train into the platform at Tamworth so pax intending to leave the train at Nuneaton could get a connecting train back to Nuneaton.

I know Train Crew obviously have their stopping patterns clearly displayed on paperwork they have with them, but I guess the changes to the stopping patterns of the Manchester trains doesn't help, given that before the stopping patterns were changed a few years ago, the Manchester trains were faster and had fewer stops.

Originally southbound they used to be:

Stockport Macclesfield Stoke
Stockport Wilmslow Crewe
Stockport Stoke Milton Keynes

Now the first one additionally calls at Rugby and Milton Keynes Central.

The second one calls additionally at Stafford.

The third one doesn't stop Milton Keynes anymore and calls at Nuneaton instead.


(Sorry off topic!)

And to add to this, what would have been the benefit of running it fast through one station where it was booked to call, only to stop it at another station where it wasn’t booked to call?