Getting the most out of the new Alstom units for TPE?

[lowe1409]

It's rather defeatist to pronounce the north as a fundamentally poor place. There's nothing fundamental about it.

According to ONS statistics from 2025, the median weekly income in London was £900pw while for the North East, and Yorkshire and the Humber, both were earning roughly £700pw.
That's roughly 23% difference. Comparing that to the Thameslink figure

Given that TPE's journey profile isn't all that different to Thameslink, pivoting it towards a standing railway is entirely appropriate. The interior layout looks more comfortable than the Class 700s. TPE earns 16p per passenger km vs 20p on TSGN, so actually there is room for yield to grow. With lower standing expectation and a lower yield than Thameslink, TPE passengers have it pretty good.

Going on your figures, 20p per km for Thameslink, you'd expect TPE to make 23% less due to the economic differences up north, that comes to 15.4p per KM which is slightly lower than where TPE is, I don't think there is much room, without radical economic change, for those kinds of yields to be generated on a non-london centred TOC

 

[NCT]

According to ONS statistics from 2025, the median weekly income in London was £900pw while for the North East, and Yorkshire and the Humber, both were earning roughly £700pw.
That's roughly 23% difference. Comparing that to the Thameslink figure

Going on your figures, 20p per km for Thameslink, you'd expect TPE to make 23% less due to the economic differences up north, that comes to 15.4p per KM which is slightly lower than where TPE is, I don't think there is much room, without radical economic change, for those kinds of yields to be generated on a non-london centred TOC

Then load factor will have to do the leg work. On this measure even with increased standing TPE will still be more generous than Thameslink.

And in the short term the rail capacity will have to be/remain a function of the city centre knowledge sector population (which is proportionally smaller in the north than in the south) rather than a function of the total population. Again, on this measure the north does rather well.

 

[lowe1409]

And in the short term the rail capacity will have to be/remain a function of the city centre knowledge sector population (which is proportionally smaller in the north than in the south) rather than a function of the total population. Again, on this measure the north does rather well.

The railway should, and does serve all sects of society, not just the wealthy. To do so would be terrible business sense as it's excluding a massive part of the market, and raising fares to exclude them would be madness.

Then load factor will have to do the leg work. On this measure even with increased standing TPE will still be more generous than Thameslink.

I appreciate, I don't use Thameslink much, but to say TPE has low utilisation over the core is blatantly untrue. The peripheries might have lower utilisation, but unless you want to split/join every train at Leeds/York, you'll always have that problem.

 

[NCT]

I appreciate, I don't use Thameslink much, but to say TPE has low utilisation over the core is blatantly untrue. The peripheries might have lower utilisation, but unless you want to split/join every train at Leeds/York, you'll always have that problem.

I didn't say low, I just mean that even with increased standing a Huddersfield - Leeds leg of TPE will still be more comfortable than St Albans - London on Thameslink.

 

[Transilien]

I've just checked ORR rail industry finance numbers. Cross Country's staff cost per passenger km is in fact marginally cheaper than 'long train' operators like Greater Anglia, Essex Thameside and GTR. Staff being 35% of franchise income is in line with industry norm.

But does cross country provide an adequate service for its passengers? Avanti could start running 4-carriage voyagers from London to Glasgow tomorrow and the DFT would not be happy despite cost savings compared to an 11 carriage pendelino!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Sep 2026 ==

For me, the new fleet looks good and the only problem is that they are too short.

 

[NCT]

But does cross country provide an adequate service for its passengers? Avanti could start running 4-carriage voyagers from London to Glasgow tomorrow and the DFT would not be happy despite cost savings compared to an 11 carriage pendelino!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Sep 2026 ==

For me, the new fleet looks good and the only problem is that they are too short.

Let's be clear, no-one is reducing capacity, so I'm not sure the reductio ad absurdum quite works here.

We are looking at a 50% increase in the number of carriages compared to today. For the sake of argument, suppose it's 50% increase in carriages for a 60% increase in demand, and the higher load factor is what keeps the capacity expansion affordable, then I don't see why anyone wouldn't grab it with both hands.

 

[stevieinselby]

We are looking at a 50% increase in the number of carriages compared to today. For the sake of argument, suppose it's 50% increase in carriages for a 60% increase in demand, and the higher load factor is what keeps the capacity expansion affordable, then I don't see why anyone wouldn't grab it with both hands.

That does depend on whether the trains can absorb the higher load factor without becoming uncomfortably overcrowded. As long as they can, it should be fine.

 

[Snow1964]

That does depend on whether the trains can absorb the higher load factor without becoming uncomfortably overcrowded. As long as they can, it should be fine.

One thing that was clearly absent from both DfT and Alstom announcements was any formal mention of options.

Although of course if these trains are not due to enter service until late 2034 (and I think announcement said start to enter service, which presumably means some will be following year (or two) then plenty of time for them still be lengthened to 6 cars, or alternatively more ordered at a later date.

I am not yet clear what Derby is supposed to be building for next 6-7 years until serious production (rather than building pilot units) takes place. The HS2 fleet is unlikely to take 6 years of production capacity.

 

[Goldfish62]

I am not yet clear what Derby is supposed to be building for next 6-7 years until serious production (rather than building pilot units) takes place. The HS2 fleet is unlikely to take 6 years of production capacity.

One would hope orders for ScotRail, Northern and/or Southeastern, although they need their trains quicker than in eight years time so if Alstom are saying this is the timescale then I'll guess they'll go elsewhere.

 

[em81]

But yet more new trains for TPE whilst other operators have to make do with ancient sprinters or hand me down trains

It's worth remembering if the north of England franchises were structured in the same way as the South West or East Midlands, it would look a lot more comparable. The core traction in the North of England is still Sprinters built in the 1980s. The Transpennine fleet size is a fraction of the Northern fleet size.

3 car 185s without corridor connections should only ever have been a temporary measure on North TPE, even if electrification programmes hadn't gone ahead. The same with 4 car Voyagers on XC.

I'm interested to know the proposed service pattern when the new trains come in. The North TPE service is currently operating at a reduced level from what it was a few years ago. There's currently only one direct train from Piccadilly to Leeds each hour. It was due to be cut to two Airport to Leeds via Piccadilly and Victoria services per hour, but only one of them currently runs.

 

[Zomboid]

interested to know the proposed service pattern when the new trains come in. The North TPE service is currently operating at a reduced level from what it was a few years ago. There's currently only one direct train from Piccadilly to Leeds each hour. It was due to be cut to two Airport to Leeds via Piccadilly and Victoria services per hour, but only one of them currently runs

I think between Manchester and Leeds the plan is for 2tph fast Airport - Pic (13/14) - Vic - Leeds, 2tph fast Liverpool - Vic - Leeds and 2tph Semi fast Pic (shed) - Leeds - Hull. Not sure of the ultimate origin/ destination pairs of the fasts, and that could change easily anyway.

Would make sense for Liverpool - Newcastle (using 125mph stock which could be straight electrics, maybe the same type as on the WCML if it's a new order) and Airport - Scarborough/ Saltburn (using these BEMUs), but that's just me crayoning.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would personally have two Liverpool-Newcastle fasts as intercity services ideally with full length trains, and everything else more local.

 

[A S Leib]

I would personally have two Liverpool-Newcastle fasts as intercity services ideally with full length trains, and everything else more local.

Would you have both Newcastles with the same ECML calling pattern, or (Northallerton and) Chester-le-Street only getting one call?

(Assuming that no local service north of Durham / Darlington is possible.)

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I would personally have two Liverpool-Newcastle fasts as intercity services ideally with full length trains, and everything else more local.

Would you have both Newcastles with the same ECML calling pattern, or (Northallerton and) Chester-le-Street only getting one call?

(Assuming that no local service north of Durham / Darlington is possible.)

I think there’s a lot to be said for separating out train services that serve as an odd mix of Intercity and Local trains into genuinely fast limited stop Intercity services and reliable and frequent Local trains with good connectivity. It means journeys from more smaller stations may require a change but in my opinion it tends to be for the greater good.

 

[HSTEd]

Separate limited stop and stopping services eat capacity, however. Given the high acceleration performance of multiple units (reducing the advantage of non-stop runs) I think the trend will probably be the opposite in the long term.

Neatness in divion between "intercity" and "other" services might have some advantages, but I think the quality of the product provided itself is the important thing. More frequency has proven to be an enormous selling point repeatedly in the past.

 

[Zomboid]

Ultimately it'll probably be capacity which determines what goes on with the TPE Newcastle runs. There's quite a lot to fit into that 2 track between Northallerton and Newcastle, and limited overtaking possible (anything other than Darlington?). London trains are probably going to be pretty limited stop, which leaves XC and TPE to pick up the smaller stations between them, unless a newly electric northern train (York to Morpeth in a 350?) can be fitted around it all. That would probably be the ideal, but will it fit?

 

[A S Leib]

Ultimately it'll probably be capacity which determines what goes on with the TPE Newcastle runs. There's quite a lot to fit into that 2 track between Northallerton and Newcastle, and limited overtaking possible (anything other than Darlington?). London trains are probably going to be pretty limited stop, which leaves XC and TPE to pick up the smaller stations between them, unless a newly electric northern train (York to Morpeth in a 350?) can be fitted around it all. That would probably be the ideal, but will it fit?

(I know that this is now moving slightly away from TPE's new units) right now, XC are the nonstop services between York and Darlington whilst Northallerton gets the LNER Newcastle terminator, and the other way around for Durham and (less so) Darlington.

I don't know if a York to Morpeth Northern service would be possible or practical. Reviving Arriva Northern's Newcastle to Middlesbrough via Durham and Stockton bid would help Chester-le-Street to Newcastle, but there's lots* of Chester-le-Street to York demand too and that route wouldn't help Darlington.

*some large year-on-year increases make me wonder if anything with split ticketing happened

 

[Roger B]

I think between Manchester and Leeds the plan is for 2tph fast Airport - Pic (13/14) - Vic - Leeds, 2tph fast Liverpool - Vic - Leeds and 2tph Semi fast Pic (shed) - Leeds - Hull. Not sure of the ultimate origin/ destination pairs of the fasts, and that could change easily anyway.

Would make sense for Liverpool - Newcastle (using 125mph stock which could be straight electrics, maybe the same type as on the WCML if it's a new order) and Airport - Scarborough/ Saltburn (using these BEMUs), but that's just me crayoning.

Hmm. If the timings of the current Manchester Airport - Redcar trains are anything to go by, trains to/from the north-east via Man Vic, Ordsal chord and Man Picc are anything but 'fast' between Man Vic and Man Picc (and vice versa).

 

[dodecahedron67]

I believe the plan is
Liverpool - Newcastle 1tph fast
Liverpool - Scarborough 1tph fast
Man Air - Saltburn 1tph via Ordsall then Hudds/Leeds only
Man Air - York 1tph via Ordsall then Hudds/Leeds only (to be extended to Newcastle if/when capacity upgrades north of York are actually done)
Man Picc (Shed) - Hull semi-fast 2tph (Stalybridge, Hudds, Dews, Leeds)

 

[em81]

I believe the plan is
Liverpool - Newcastle 1tph fast
Liverpool - Scarborough 1tph fast
Man Air - Saltburn 1tph via Ordsall then Hudds/Leeds only
Man Air - York 1tph via Ordsall then Hudds/Leeds only (to be extended to Newcastle if/when capacity upgrades north of York are actually done)
Man Picc (Shed) - Hull semi-fast 2tph (Stalybridge, Hudds, Dews, Leeds)

I did think the original plan was along those lines, but with TPE choosing to send a Hull service to Liverpool and extending the slow service to York via Wakefield, I wondered if the long term plan had changed.

 

[3RDGEN]

I believe the plan is
Liverpool - Newcastle 1tph fast
Liverpool - Scarborough 1tph fast
Man Air - Saltburn 1tph via Ordsall then Hudds/Leeds only
Man Air - York 1tph via Ordsall then Hudds/Leeds only (to be extended to Newcastle if/when capacity upgrades north of York are actually done)
Man Picc (Shed) - Hull semi-fast 2tph (Stalybridge, Hudds, Dews, Leeds)

That appears to be the plan although it's not clear if that is 2034 or earlier. TfN was told by the last government that when LNER took the third path north of York off TPE that upgrades would follow so TPE could return to 2tph to Newcastle as you mention, teminating at York would be an inital step.

On the issue of extra capacity the article below quotes a 30% increase in capacity which sounds about right given the increase is two extra trains per hour and a 5-car unit vice a single 185 now, Leeds - Manchester. York - Manchester will see less of an increase.

"https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c1dl0w66e9yo?at_medium=RSS&at_campaign=rss" -

"Will battery-powered trains change the future of UK rail travel?.....​

The deal will see 29 new Adessia Stream trains built at Alstom's Litchurch Lane works in Derby for the TransPennine Express (TPE) route.

The fleet is due to be built from 2028 and enter service from the end of 2034.

The trains will run on routes between Liverpool Lime Street and Scarborough, Manchester Airport and Saltburn, and Manchester Piccadilly and Hull.

With five carriages, the trains could boost capacity by 30% across the Pennines and will run without emissions on sections of the railway that are not electrified where currently diesel engines are needed."

 

[LittleAH]

I believe the plan is
Liverpool - Newcastle 1tph fast
Liverpool - Scarborough 1tph fast
Man Air - Saltburn 1tph via Ordsall then Hudds/Leeds only
Man Air - York 1tph via Ordsall then Hudds/Leeds only (to be extended to Newcastle if/when capacity upgrades north of York are actually done)
Man Picc (Shed) - Hull semi-fast 2tph (Stalybridge, Hudds, Dews, Leeds)

I am sure There was some questions about XC terminating their Newcastle services at York and TPE picking up that path.

 

[3RDGEN]

I am sure There was some questions about XC terminating their Newcastle services at York and TPE picking up that path.

A possible option and would help XC save units, however 2034 is a long way off so the infrastructure upgrades required may still get done.

 

[Killingworth]

I believe the plan is
Liverpool - Newcastle 1tph fast
Liverpool - Scarborough 1tph fast
Man Air - Saltburn 1tph via Ordsall then Hudds/Leeds only
Man Air - York 1tph via Ordsall then Hudds/Leeds only (to be extended to Newcastle if/when capacity upgrades north of York are actually done)
Man Picc (Shed) - Hull semi-fast 2tph (Stalybridge, Hudds, Dews, Leeds)

As it will be 8-10 years before this new fleet can be built, tested and fully deployed much can happen in the meantime, not least demand for rail.

I have been using the roads between Sheffield and Newcastle and Hull for the last 50 years. Rarely have I used trains. To nearer Manchester? I can only recall using the car once. Why the difference?

It's relative convenience at both ends of the journey. Going to Manchester I can catch a train at least hourly from a station within walking distance of my home. My visits to Manchester (or Liverpool) are for city centre based events.

Going to Newcastle or Hull requires a change of train in Sheffield and I'm travelling for social reasons well away from the city centres.

I used to use the car to Leeds, even for city centre business meetings. Not any more. The M1 has got wider and busier, roads to the M1 are very congested and parking is far more difficult. London has always been a train trip for me (although before the M25 I drove through to Surrey).

Our trip to Newcastle for this year's Great North Run reminds me of how much more congested our roads have become generally, and every day. The increased distances being travelled by more people by road over the last 50 years should encourage greater use of longer distance rail.

For some journeys that's happening but nothing like as much as our increasing population is taking to roads. Which brings us back to TRU, TPE, GBR and the DfT. Where, when and what units are to be deployed? These new units are a relative drop in the ocean when it comes to satisfying our increasing demands to move around the country.

And then to 9 car Elizabeth line trains and Thameslink at 12 car, both rammed full through London at peak hours, even from personal experience at midnight!

Earlier this week roads into Manchester Airport were gridlocked feeding back onto the local motorway network. Drop off charges are high yet cars keep coming. We need better rail connections and that's what TPE are all about.

5 car trains are better than 3 but there's a serious lack of effective capacity to satisfy greater ambition. There aren't enough paths to run many more trains reliably. There aren't enough platforms long enough for trains over 6 car, some even for that. Access to many stations is restricted with limited parking nearby and poor integration with bus routes and services. Drop off can also be congested with fees starting to copy those at airports.

These new trains themselves are a very small part in a highly complex scenario that will change many times over the next 50 years before they should have been replaced!

 

[Snow1964]

I am sure There was some questions about XC terminating their Newcastle services at York and TPE picking up that path.

XC has retrenched and handed over routes all over the place, more cutbacks would not be major problem

25 years ago was planned as :
VT0 Swindon - Gloucester - Birmingham
VT1 Penzance - Exeter - Bristol - Birmingham - Crewe - Carlisle - Glasgow or Blackpool
VT2 Poole - Southampton - Reading - Oxford - Birmingham - Manchester - Carlisle - Glasgow / Edinburgh - (Aberdeen)
VT3 Portsmouth - Guildford or Brighton or Reading - Oxford - Birmingham - Manchester
VT4 Penzance - Exeter - Bristol or Swansea - Cardiff then - Birmingham - York - Newcastle - Edinburgh - (Aberdeen)

Swindon- Gloucester, Poole - Bournemouth, Swansea - Cardiff, Portsmouth - Reading, Brighton - Clapham - Reading, Crewe - Blackpool / Glasgow already axed, a bit more where there is an alternative isn't that fundamental

For completeness, other Virgin routes
VT5 Euston - Holyhead
VT6 Euston - Blackpool or Glasgow
VT7 Euston - Manchester
VT8 Euston - Liverpool
VT9 Euston - Wolverhampton

 

[Roger B]

XC has retrenched and handed over routes all over the place, more cutbacks would not be major problem

25 years ago was planned as :
VT0 Swindon - Gloucester - Birmingham
VT1 Penzance - Exeter - Bristol - Birmingham - Crewe - Carlisle - Glasgow or Blackpool
VT2 Poole - Southampton - Reading - Oxford - Birmingham - Manchester - Carlisle - Glasgow / Edinburgh - (Aberdeen)
VT3 Portsmouth - Guildford or Brighton or Reading - Oxford - Birmingham - Manchester
VT4 Penzance - Exeter - Bristol or Swansea - Cardiff then - Birmingham - York - Newcastle - Edinburgh - (Aberdeen)

Swindon- Gloucester, Poole - Bournemouth, Swansea - Cardiff, Portsmouth - Reading, Brighton - Clapham - Reading, Crewe - Blackpool / Glasgow already axed, a bit more where there is an alternative isn't that fundamental

For completeness, other Virgin routes
VT5 Euston - Holyhead
VT6 Euston - Blackpool or Glasgow
VT7 Euston - Manchester
VT8 Euston - Liverpool
VT9 Euston - Wolverhampton

But other routes added? I'm thinking Cardiff - Nottingham (via Chepstow), Birmingham - Stansted (via Cambridge).

It seems to me that a significant limiting factor for XC is rolling-stock, given loadings on their existing services, and going no further north than York may help, freeing-up some voyager units for re-deployment elsewhere.

Factors to consider include:
. the proportion of XC passengers from south and west of Leeds / Doncaster that are travelling north of York, and vice versa,
. whether LNER has the capacity to absorb XC's passengers north of Newcastle (ie to Aberdeen / Glasgow Central, and stations between),
. the degree to which a change of train at York (albeit hopefully using the same same platform), and (hopefully inly slightly) increased journey time would discourage rail use

 

[xotGD]

I believe the plan is
Liverpool - Newcastle 1tph fast
Liverpool - Scarborough 1tph fast
Man Air - Saltburn 1tph via Ordsall then Hudds/Leeds only
Man Air - York 1tph via Ordsall then Hudds/Leeds only (to be extended to Newcastle if/when capacity upgrades north of York are actually done)
Man Picc (Shed) - Hull semi-fast 2tph (Stalybridge, Hudds, Dews, Leeds)

When is a second service per hour to/from the airport via the chord due to be reinstated?

It is a PITA only having an hourly service to/from Oxford Road.

 

[em81]

It’s crazy that 2034 is the planned introduction date, that’s almost 10 years away.

Just a thought - Alstom are one of the shortlisted bidders for the Northern contract. Could the delay be because they submitted timescales based on winning both?

It seems to have gone quiet regarding the Northern contract award, despite the new trains being needed/expected sooner.

 

[dodecahedron67]

When is a second service per hour to/from the airport via the chord due to be reinstated?

It is a PITA only having an hourly service to/from Oxford Road.

Needs the new trains to have the available stock. The 802s that should be running it are busy pissing about at 60mph to Hull.

There’ll be some re-jigging of diagrams, as to run it up to Newcastle it needs some 802s freeing up from shuttling in the borders too

 

[YorksLad12]

Just a thought - Alstom are one of the shortlisted bidders for the Northern contract. Could the delay be because they submitted timescales based on winning both?

It seems to have gone quiet regarding the Northern contract award, despite the new trains being needed/expected sooner.

It’s not a delay as such, more a very advanced order. That’s not to say they don’t have work in the meantime, but TRU isn’t going to be finished for some time. If the trains are electric-battery then you need at least enough overhead wiring in place to minimise battery use; plus charging infrastructure, which takes forever to connect up to the grid.