Expansion of LNER 70-min flex trial area ("Simpler Fares")

[Bletchleyite]

Sigh... https://x.com/DavidHorne/status/2099889361021964556

What's wrong with that? It isn't an expansion of the "trial", just a very low tier of Advance fare on two specific trains to compete directly with Flixbus against the main business travel flow.

 

[Mainline421]

What's wrong with that? It isn't an expansion of the "trial", just a very low tier of Advance fare on two specific trains to compete directly with Flixbus against the main business travel flow.

But they won't allow Off-Peak tickets on these same "quiet" morning trains...

 

[Bletchleyite]

But they won't allow Off-Peak tickets on these same "quiet" morning trains...

So? It's hardly an unusual practice, and as everything is single fare priced you can buy one of those Advances one way and a super off peak single the other way and save a packet.

 

[yorksrob]

So? It's hardly an unusual practice, and as everything is single fare priced you can buy one of those Advances one way and a super off peak single the other way and save a packet.

It's a valid point though.

I'm not convinced there's much point at all in peak fares on long distance services as those trains just carry fresh air.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's a valid point though.

I'm not convinced there's much point at all in peak fares on long distance services as those trains just carry fresh air.

Ironically it was argued that was one reason for the "trial". However if you actually look at fares there are still periods of Anytime only in the former peaks, little has changed in that regard.

 

[yorksrob]

Ironically it was argued that was one reason for the "trial". However if you actually look at fares there are still periods of Anytime only in the former peaks, little has changed in that regard.

Well, only if they'd intended to abolish both peak and off-peak ! (Which would be reservation only).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well, only if they'd intended to abolish both peak and off-peak ! (Which would be reservation only).

The Anytime remains as a cap, but the expectation was that some "off peak" but busy times would be priced up e.g. Sunday afternoon, but in return quieter weekday mornings would be priced down e.g. Wednesday mornings. Neither of these has happened.

 

[Starmill]

My understanding is that there's some kind of long-standing arrangement where tickets to Leeds are accepted at Wakefield, including for advances. I know no details about it, other than I saw some hint about something like this recently.

This is, as I understand, a "local arrangement" the staff at Wakefield Westgate have. There's something similar with Stockport on Manchester <> London tickets.

It comes from the fact that loads of people get booked Leeds - London or Manchester - London tickets for work, but actually it's so much easier for them to park, take a taxi or get a lift, at their own expense, to and from Wakefield Westgate or Stockport, for the same train.

Personally I probably wouldn't want to rely on it as it's not documented for the public (unless it now is, and someone can point it out, of course!). But it has been around for years. It is incredibly unlikely that someone doing this would be charged, even if they've actually done it to save money. But caveat emptor.

To be honest though both Stockport and Wakefield Westgate often just have their ticket gates open very early in the morning or late in the evening.

If you booked say a Leeds to London ticket for £12 to save yourself £4.60 over the cheapest Peterborough to London price on the same service, I would not be expecting as warm a welcome at all...

 

[styles]

Well, only if they'd intended to abolish both peak and off-peak ! (Which would be reservation only).

But even then, the 70 min flex tickets are both reservation only and not reservation only. You need an initial service reservation, but you're allowed to use it +/-70 mins on another service without a reservation.

It feels like a wind up really calling it simpler.

 

[Starmill]

It's slightly frustrating that those advance fares aren't available at as low prices from / to Stevenage. If LNER are going to pick up northbound and set down southbound only there, it would be nice to then not have higher fares than King's Cross.

I guess LNER are of the view that those who are looking for journeys like Stevenage to Leeds or Peterborough to London (and so on) are less likely to take Flixbus.

There’s also a minor marketing bonus in it for them by offering this, but the main reason is probably testing the market and getting data. The people who buy the £12 tickets via an LNER channel are very likely to be targeted with surveys too.

 

[styles]

There’s also a minor marketing bonus in it for them by offering this, but the main reason is probably testing the market and getting data.

I think this is probably it. I don't believe they'll have identified London-Leeds as the only critical coach route to compete with, but they want to see how it pans out.

The fares may end up increasing, but if they can halve the travel time compared to a coach and only charge an extra couple of quid, I think it'll end up being popular and expanded.

Also that Lumo has been so successful shows there is a market for cheaper+quicker travel on this route.

 

[Silver Cobra]

It's slightly frustrating that those advance fares aren't available at as low prices from / to Stevenage. If LNER are going to pick up northbound and set down southbound only there, it would be nice to then not have higher fares than King's Cross.

In the case of Stevenage, at least the price being charged for that service isn't much more than from Kings Cross. Using tomorrow morning's 0540 at the example, Kings Cross to Leeds is available for £12 while Stevenage to Leeds is £15.90 (this is the cheapest tier of advance for this journey according to BRFares; the only cheaper fares are promotional ones).

In comparison, looking the next stop up at Newark Northgate LNER want £25.90 for a journey to Leeds on this same service.

 

[styles]

In the case of Stevenage, at least the price being charged for that service isn't much more than from Kings Cross. Using tomorrow morning's 0540 at the example, Kings Cross to Leeds is available for £12 while Stevenage to Leeds is £15.90 (this is the cheapest tier of advance for this journey according to BRFares; the only cheaper fares are promotional ones).

In comparison, looking the next stop up at Newark Northgate LNER want £25.90 for a journey to Leeds on this same service.

Also with Stevenage, Lumo call there as their argument is that they are trying to attract passengers from Luton Airport who would otherwise fly to the likes of Edinburgh. I imagine LNER could make the same argument about Luton Airport to Leeds Bradford Airport given most people actually want to be in Leeds rather than an industrial estate in Yeodon.

Lumo (east coast) have proved to be massively successful, and I suspect it's because they offer budget travel with baggage included. Budget airlines don't include baggage, and LNER wasn't budget, so Lumo filled the gap.

If LNER starts offering budget fares connecting London with other cities near airports, I think they'll be successful, so I can see Stevenage maybe coming into the equation owing to its proximity to Luton Airport, but I believe they want to try just a couple of services to see whether this 'takes off' (pun intended).

 

[Haywain]

Stevenage maybe coming into the equation owing to its proximity to Luton Airport,

I really don't think that proximity to Luton Airport has much to do with it. The airport catchment area - much of south-east England including London - is the same as that for Stansted and Gatwick apart from some areas where cross-country journeys limit the choice.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I really don't think that proximity to Luton Airport has much to do with it. The airport catchment area - much of south-east England including London - is the same as that for Stansted and Gatwick apart from some areas where cross-country journeys limit the choice.

Stevenage is like Watford Junction, Stockport, Runcorn or whatever - somewhere to drive to to take the train if driving into the city centre isn't going to be much fun.

 

[Haywain]

Stevenage is like Watford Junction, Stockport, Runcorn or whatever - somewhere to drive to to take the train if driving into the city centre isn't going to be much fun.

Exactly.

I imagine LNER could make the same argument about Luton Airport to Leeds Bradford Airport given most people actually want to be in Leeds rather than an industrial estate in Yeodon.

The lack of flights to Leeds from Luton means it's not much of an argument.

 

[Failed Unit]

Leeds doesn’t really have any competition from flights. The ones that exist are feeder flights. However the early morning trains are quiet until Grantham / Newark where they start picking up commuters. That said the 5 coach trains are not full at that time in the morning. The London - Aberdeen services has lots of small flows with large numbers. Again popular for York and Newcastle arrival

 

[Starmill]

The lack of flights to Leeds from Luton means it's not much of an argument.

Indeed. And nowadays the lack of flights to Leeds from almost anywhere.

The shortest ones still running are Belfast, Belfast, Dublin, Amsterdam, Cologne, Jersey, Guernsey, Paris, Bergen, Limoges, Geneva and Copenhagen. Quite a lack of trains from Leeds for any of those