Experiences of service recovery (or lack of) on GTR Great Northern

[jon0844]

Over 10 drivers out and a number of mostly 700s out for repair (two trains involved in just one incident, with one having damage to the side of the train and an incursion into first class) and now a 379 with the latest.

The number of people hit by trains on just one route has been quite shocking as all of these incidents have taken place within just three weeks.

 

[Failed Unit]

Over 10 drivers out and a number of mostly 700s out for repair (two trains involved in just one incident, with one having damage to the side of the train and an incursion into first class) and now a 379 with the latest.

The number of people hit by trains on just one route has been quite shocking as all of these incidents have taken place within just three weeks.

Was it the one last week that involved 2x class 700s? I know there was one say just north of WGC for ages, but the track diagrams showed another one just after Welwyn North. It did look odd in the respect that I would have expected one of them would have moved quicker then it did (they were both there until after Midday for an incident that took place at approx 0830) The 700s missing probably won’t make much difference (at the weekend in particular) as there are lots of 387s to cover.

Keeping to the topic of this thread, the incident yesterday took place at 1130ish. The service was disrupted until the end of the day. With the normal lack of information to use passengers. I was expecting the 0107 London - Royston to be cancelled it run, however they also decided to stop a Horsham - Peterborough service at Welwyn Garden City, which was a nice surprise. (I would have planned to get on it at London Bridge if they had advertised it In advance)

 

[MikeWM]

The driver shortage also being because of three drivers hitting people in the last week but don't let any sort of compassion affect your narrative aye?

I have a good deal of compassion for the individual drivers concerned. I didn't mention that specific issue because my understanding is that there are forum rules against discussing such things.

But why would I have sympathy for a *company* that has proven over and over again that they can't perform the task they are supposed to do and on which thousands of people rely daily? As others have pointed out, there were a good deal more than three drivers-worth of services removed from the timetable today. They couldn't even run a full hourly Cambridge to Kings Lynn service, with a gap between 1645 and 1815 exactly at the time people are trying to go home after shopping etc.

On the thread that goes into intricate details about the running of the line and every little reason for a delay??

The Fen Line is one of the worst-performing lines in the country at this point - quite possibly on average over the last 6 months or so, the actual worst among lines of similar length. The stations are regularly in the bottom 10 for punctuality in the country - the others in that list move in/out and are largely stations served by long-distance trains, the one constant is the Fen Line stations.

Even on a 'good' day the trains are performing poorly in terms of punctuality, short-forms and comfort (regularly malfunctioning aircon, for example). When something goes wrong, they are totally unable to recover service, usually for the rest of the day. They continually abandon or mostly abandon parts of their route (eg. Cambridge-Ely) and expect already busy GA and XC services to fill in for them.

Yes, those of us who rely on this service complain about it, because it is performing truly dismally, and there doesn't appear to be any hope of improvement.

While the weekday issues are (comparatively!) new, the issues on Saturday have been taking place continually since GTR took over the francise 12 years ago. I started a fairly popular thread on here on this exact subject in May 2016 (!) and things have only gone downhill year after year since then.

 

[jon0844]

Was it the one last week that involved 2x class 700s?

Yes.

 

[Simon_DM]

In case you have not already seen it, Network Rail and GTR have issued a three page apology and service recovery plan (which the Fen Line Users' Association circulated to members at the weekend).
No marked improvement today, Monday, with cancellations and delays all over the shop.

 

[Failed Unit]

Very interesting. Point 6 should be so easy. I look forward to seeing an improvement here. I have often found out about changes to stopping patterns after I have got off the very train that made and extra stop.

However communication is one thing. They don’t say anything about not putting a train that is skipping stops behind one that isn’t (defeating the point of the skipping)

 

[bramling]

Very interesting. Point 6 should be so easy. I look forward to seeing an improvement here. I have often found out about changes to stopping patterns after I have got off the very train that made and extra stop.

However communication is one thing. They don’t say anything about not putting a train that is skipping stops behind one that isn’t (defeating the point of the skipping)

I love the way timetable resilience is at the bottom of their list. It’s all very well prioritising Fen Line trains, but the problem is that this is just shifting the problem from one place to another, as the original May 18 concept was that Thameslink services need prioritising (which much as I hate the whole Thameslink concept, if you didn’t do this then it’s just going to cause carnage overall).

In reality there’s only so much prioritising that can be done anyway, as if you hold a service back in favour of another all it then does is cause a chain reaction, which on the GN network can then cause issues for many hours.

The real issue is that as many northbound services need to be right-time as possible essentially for their entire journey. The current setup doesn’t enable this in a number of ways, not least that Fen Line services have a comparatively short turnround at King’s Cross nowadays, which anywhere else would be fine, but on the post-2018 GN network isn’t.

As for the 379s, I’m not sure this is the biggest issue, as the timetable was falling apart before the 379s came on the scene, just that it was masked because of the interworking with the Cambridge stopping service, so that was taking a share of the disruption that the Fen Line now has to itself.

A return to the original May 18 timetable concept is what is required, with very long turnrounds at King’s Cross, virtually no inter-working, and very simple (but not particularly efficient) rolling stock diagrams. Unfortunately there now isn’t the platform space at King’s Cross for this, and possibly not enough trains also following the loss of the 365s.

 

[Failed Unit]

the threads often discusses not getting Letchworth terminated services off the lines as a reason from the Fen Line delays. Be interesting how they resolve that. If it is planned to take 5 minutes but takes 7 then that is always a problem with the line so full.

The split / join at Cambridge wasn’t called out either.

Extra dwell at Kings Lynn is difficult to achieve. As others state it in now 3rd in the queue from Hitchin - Cambridge. The only place other trains can be held is Hitchin. Considering a train leaving Hitchin 3 minutes late may not be caught until Royston it could be waiting a long time at Hitchin.

Reading this the biggest win if it all goes wrong is getting a Cambridge- Kings Lynn shuttle running. Something they currently struggle with. Loss of the line at Royston should not shut the Fenline. They should have a plan for this scenario.

 

[RailwayRookie]

In case you have not already seen it, Network Rail and GTR have issued a three page apology and service recovery plan (which the Fen Line Users' Association circulated to members at the weekend).

Where was this published? It just seems like a weird to not include any sort of company header or signature information.

Not saying its fake, just saying it could have been written by anyone.

 

[Simon_DM]

Where was this published? It just seems like a weird to not include any sort of company header or signature information.

Not saying its fake, just saying it could have been written by anyone.

I've asked the FLUA Secretary about its origins. I can't find the document anywhere on the GTR or Network Rail websites, nor on the MPs' sites. Perhaps it was circulated to a limited number of stakeholders. If and when I get more intelligence about it, I'll post it here.

 

[MikeWM]

I've asked the FLUA Secretary about its origins. I can't find the document anywhere on the GTR or Network Rail websites, nor on the MPs' sites. Perhaps it was circulated to a limited number of stakeholders. If and when I get more intelligence about it, I'll post it here.

It seems to be an expanded version of this (rather well-hidden) page on GN's website, some of the language is exactly the same:

https://www.greatnorthernrail.com/service-updates/service-updates/apology
eg. We know customers need more than an explanation. You need a service you can depend on, clear information when things go wrong and confidence that we’re fixing the underlying causes. Together with Network Rail we are working on an action plan to improve which is outlined below.   

which is almost word-for-word the same in the document.

 

[MikeWM]

Assuming the document is legitimate, there's nothing really surprising in it.

To summarise - there are issues with the infrastructure, the trains, driver availability and the timetable. (!!) Which are pretty much the basic things you need to run a railway, so if all of them are going wrong, things aren't going to go well.

While the infrastructure is beyond the control of GN the other three items are not:

- They took on the 379s despite many concerns about how and how long they had been stored. They say themselves 'our other Electrostar trains perform well' - so maybe keeping those would have been a better option?! It still isn't clear what has caused the repeated pantograph damage - it doesn't sound much like they know either.
- The driver shortages have been ongoing since September 2014, which ought to have been more than enough time, many times over, to fix it.
- The lack of resiliance in the current timetable was pointed out by many of us when the draft East Coast timetable was produced. Insufficient recovery time at both ends, combined with the lunacy in the down direction of trying to fit the Thameslink *precisely* between the stopper and the fast, with delays accumulating once the slightest thing goes wrong, was clearly never going to work. But they accepted it anyway.

Other than improved communication, there doesn't seem to be anything there about improving recovery from disruption, which (as per this thread) we know they are utterly awful at. They need to produce contingency plans and/or stick to them.

the threads often discusses not getting Letchworth terminated services off the lines as a reason from the Fen Line delays. Be interesting how they resolve that. If it is planned to take 5 minutes but takes 7 then that is always a problem with the line so full.

I actually watched this happen on Saturday afternoon. The guy doing it was very efficient, even jogging between the carriages. But it still took 4 minutes, and if anything had been complicated (eg. trying to wake passengers up) it clearly would have taken longer. Seems pretty obvious there should be two people doing this rather than expecting one to be able to do everything.

The split / join at Cambridge wasn’t called out either.

There have been so many other issues lately I've not even been noticing how this is now going. Often the services are shortformed anyway so avoid the split!

Edit : actually I think with the Fen Line alterations it is only 1T50 (the 1748 off KGX) that splits, the others are currently only formed of 8 carriages. Looks like 1T50 took 11 minutes to split at CBG on Monday, 6.5 minutes last night...

 

[frediculous]

Interesting one this morning. The 0653 (9J09) and 0723 from Sandy cancelled while 9J09 at signal 270 just outside the station, due to a points failure. Except and LNER service and 9J09 then ran through fast on the slows, through the platform. Thameslink on X claim "these decisions are made by LNER".

What type of points failure would cause a train to run through a platform but not stop? Why would LNER be making decisions over Thameslink stopping patterns? It all doesn't quite add up to me

 

[Mattplans]

I think claiming the decisions are made by LNER is a bit misleading. It's more of a Network Rail agreement to reduce services to reduce congestion during a failure. Without opening the signal maps I'm assuming all of the traffic had to be diverted via the Slows and if all services stopped it could cause congestion.


But they have a responsibility to be stopping at least some services - just had a look at the departure board and it looks like they've just cancelled everything which isn't really fair

 

[jon0844]

Power issues between WGC and Wood Green this morning with lots of cancelled services as a result.

 

[Crithylum]

Not a single fast service from KX to Cambridge this evening, in addition to cancelling the final 2 (stopping) services of the night. Last northbound train leaving Cambridge at 23:00.

Weirdly the Thameslinks appear to be fine (are the 379s having pantograph issues again?), although 9S64 lost 8 minutes due to it taking 13 (!) minutes to empty a Letchworth terminator.

However I am happy as I could take GA and claim over £40 delay repay (from GN) on my journey back to Cambridge from the south west.

 

[Failed Unit]

I think claiming the decisions are made by LNER is a bit misleading. It's more of a Network Rail agreement to reduce services to reduce congestion during a failure. Without opening the signal maps I'm assuming all of the traffic had to be diverted via the Slows and if all services stopped it could cause congestion.


But they have a responsibility to be stopping at least some services - just had a look at the departure board and it looks like they've just cancelled everything which isn't really fair

I suspect that is the case. It is normal if only one line is available to remove the booked stops of all services while they use the other. For example if potters bar - Ally pally is down to one line. Hadley Wood, New Barnet, Oakleigh Park and New Southgate lose all services in that direction.

 

[jon0844]

I suspect that is the case. It is normal if only one line is available to remove the booked stops of all services while they use the other. For example if potters bar - Ally pally is down to one line. Hadley Wood, New Barnet, Oakleigh Park and New Southgate lose all services in that direction.

Correct and people are told to travel beyond their station and return in the other direction to complete their journey.

 

[whoosh]

Power issues between WGC and Wood Green this morning with lots of cancelled services as a result.

Not a single fast service from KX to Cambridge this evening, in addition to cancelling the final 2 (stopping) services of the night. Last northbound train leaving Cambridge at 23:00.

Weirdly the Thameslinks appear to be fine (are the 379s having pantograph issues again?), although 9S64 lost 8 minutes due to it taking 13 (!) minutes to empty a Letchworth terminator.

However I am happy as I could take GA and claim over £40 delay repay (from GN) on my journey back to Cambridge from the south west.

Yes power issues meant a limit of 12 electric trains per hour could be run between Kings Cross and Welwyn (a significant reduction). All peak Peterborough to Kings Cross GN fasts were cancelled. All Cambridge to Kings Cross fasts were cancelled, with a shuttle between Kings Lynn and Cambridge.

 

[Failed Unit]

Yes power issues meant a limit of 12 electric trains per hour could be run between Kings Cross and Welwyn (a significant reduction). All peak Peterborough to Kings Cross GN fasts were cancelled. All Cambridge to Kings Cross fasts were cancelled, with a shuttle between Kings Lynn and Cambridge.

I know this is slightly off topic, but LNER cancelled a lot as well. Did they run any on Diesel?

 

[Floydlover25]

I know this is slightly off topic, but LNER cancelled a lot as well. Did they run any on Diesel?

I was on the 14.40 to Leeds yesterday and was on diesel until the normal Stevenage (pick up) stop

 

[MikeWM]

There doesn't seem to be any infrastructure-related disruption today (?) but the service is a total mess anyway.

The 1618 KGX-KLN only got as far as Cambridge, the 1718 is running (short-formed) about 30 minutes late and the 1748 is cancelled throughout, with the 1848 already marked down as cancelled throughout too.

In the opposite direction Ely had three cancellations in a row (the 1617, 1647 and 1717).

--

Edit : the 1718 is now terminating at Ely, about 40 late. The 1748 ran from Cambridge, but given how late the 1718 was it is ahead and so no help for KLN passengers being turfed off the 1718 at Ely.

The 1648 managed to make the whole journey but (according to Twitter) without aircon and so stiflingly hot.

They seem to have found a 387 pair to run the 1848, but it is still listed as cancelled north of Royston. Who knows?

What a mess - just for a change.

--

Edit 2 : yes, the 1848 only made it to Letchworth!

 

[Magdalen Road]

There doesn't seem to be any infrastructure-related disruption today (?) but the service is a total mess anyway.

The 1618 KGX-KLN only got as far as Cambridge, the 1718 is running (short-formed) about 30 minutes late and the 1748 is cancelled throughout, with the 1848 already marked down as cancelled throughout too.

In the opposite direction Ely had three cancellations in a row (the 1617, 1647 and 1717).

--

Edit : the 1718 is now terminating at Ely, about 40 late. The 1748 ran from Cambridge, but given how late the 1718 was it is ahead and so no help for KLN passengers being turfed off the 1718 at Ely.

The 1648 managed to make the whole journey but (according to Twitter) without aircon and so stiflingly hot.

They seem to have found a 387 pair to run the 1848, but it is still listed as cancelled north of Royston. Who knows?

What a mess - just for a change.

--

Edit 2 : yes, the 1848 only made it to Letchworth!

1454 from KGX was cancelled too, shortage of train crew and trains. This morning‘s was only 90 seconds late!

 

[MikeWM]

1454 from KGX was cancelled too, shortage of train crew and trains. This morning‘s was only 90 seconds late!

0946 off Ely cancelled yet again due to the incoming being taken out of service at Cambridge 'due to a fault on a train'. There's at least one other diagram on the Fen Line missing this morning too.

I'm not entirely convinced that they are on top of keeping the 379s running, indeed seems we're back to them struggling to complete a full diagram on any given day.

Meanwhile, ontimetrains now has Littleport, Downham Market and Watlington in the bottom 7 worst stations on the entire network for reliability, with Waterbeach making an appearance at 13...

It doesn't feel like things are improving, does it?

 

[MikeWM]

Last night was a bit better though there were still a couple of *very* late services (the 1748 left KGX *after* the 1818, for example!).

0946 off Ely cancelled *again* this morning due to the incoming being cancelled throughout due to 'a problem with the train' (a pair of 379s, of course).

Here's the evening peak stats for the last 4 weeks:


(chart showing atrocious performance on evening peak Kings Cross-Ely services)

 

[Intercity_225]

Last night was a bit better though there were still a couple of *very* late services (the 1748 left KGX *after* the 1818, for example!).

0946 off Ely cancelled *again* this morning due to the incoming being cancelled throughout due to 'a problem with the train' (a pair of 379s, of course).

Here's the evening peak stats for the last 4 weeks:

View attachment 212080
(chart showing atrocious performance on evening peak Kings Cross-Ely services)

6%!

 

[Magdalen Road]

Last night was a bit better though there were still a couple of *very* late services (the 1748 left KGX *after* the 1818, for example!).

0946 off Ely cancelled *again* this morning due to the incoming being cancelled throughout due to 'a problem with the train' (a pair of 379s, of course).

Here's the evening peak stats for the last 4 weeks:

View attachment 212080
(chart showing atrocious performance on evening peak Kings Cross-Ely services)

The 1454 KGX-KLN was 33L into Ely yesterday. Inbound was late into KGX, departed 12L, inevitably got stuck behind the stoppers and accumulated more time from the onwards. Even the driver was moved to explain he’d hoped we’dnbe allowed to pass the stopper at Royston but it was not to be.
Two commutes so far this week, total of 65 minutes late.

 

[Failed Unit]

So much for the “improving communicaction”. 6% must me a new record.

Be interested if anyone can say what happened tonight. The 1827 Hertford North - Moorgate arrived into platform 10 at 1822. 4 minutes late. Its return working 1826 Moorgate to Hertford left 1h2 late.(blocking platform 10). Reason the train not stopping in the correct position. Unless it hit the buffers (not suggesting it did) why is this a problem? If the driver stopped short it is an easy problem to solve. Move forward to the right place.

 

[WeGoAgain]

So much for the “improving communicaction”. 6% must me a new record.

Be interested if anyone can say what happened tonight. The 1827 Hertford North - Moorgate arrived into platform 10 at 1822. 4 minutes late. Its return working 1826 Moorgate to Hertford left 1h2 late.(blocking platform 10). Reason the train not stopping in the correct position. Unless it hit the buffers (not suggesting it did) why is this a problem? If the driver stopped short it is an easy problem to solve. Move forward to the right place.

It's possible the doors were released before moving to the correct position.

 

[Magdalen Road]

This morning the Fen Line is it's usual disrupted state. 0521, 0617 Ely (KLN) - KGX both cancelled. The 0549 will be bearing three services' worth of commuters.
Apparently there's a broken unit at KLN, the 0617 is stuck behind it so they've swapped the trains round to run the 0549. Which is late.

My 2026 commuting delays will pass the 24 hour mark this morning. A whole day of being delayed.

UPDATE: 22L into KGX, apparently the additional 13L was due to a SPAD, as GTR stated on twitter.
Some services now cancelled or stopping early due unavailability of staff following an operational incident.

https://www.greatnorthernrail.com/service-updates/service-updates