New Alstom units for TPE: what could this mean for the 185 / 802 fleets?

[NCT]

(Speculative so I'll post here)

What does this Adessia order tell us about NPR? Do these trains have an obvious secondary home to go to outside of TransPennine?

These are 110mph units so DfT must have made a conscious decision not to specify them as NPR ready (140mph sections). If these are to live their entire lives on TransPennine, are we to take that there'll be no realistic prospects of NPR this side of 2060?

 

[Bletchleyite]

These are 110mph units so DfT must have made a conscious decision not to specify them as NPR ready (140mph sections). If these are to live their entire lives on TransPennine, are we to take that there'll be no realistic prospects of NPR this side of 2060?

There is no proposal to close the existing lines. These trains are for slower services, not the fast services for which the stock has not yet been announced.

The stock for the fast Liverpool-Newcastle services could be:
- 802s
- Surplus HS2 200m units
- New build

We don't know which and in what combination yet, but it's not these ones.

 

[dodecahedron67]

All that's been said is "TPE will continue to use existing stock on the WCML and ECML routes"

 

[eldomtom2]

Since they're only mentioning charging facilities at Saltburn, Scarborough, and Hull, does that mean all the Redcar services will be extended to Saltburn or will those remain diesel?

 

[quantinghome]

What range do the Class 802s have under diesel? How easily could they be transferred, say, to reinforce the Crosscountry service?

 

[Sorcerer]

It isn't for the South Route, it's for the North Route over the Huddersfield line, which will be electrified by the time these units arrive.

Unless I’ve missed something, there won’t be any charging infrastructure to support BEMUs on TransPennine South.

My mistake then. I would've assumed it was a 185 replacement due to capacity needs and because the fleet would be near the end of it's life cycle by then. Though if the route is fully electrified I don't see much point in making them BEMUs unless there are long sections without the wires.

 

[stevieinselby]

My mistake then. I would've assumed it was a 185 replacement due to capacity needs and because the fleet would be near the end of it's life cycle by then. Though if the route is fully electrified I don't see much point in making them BEMUs unless there are long sections without the wires.

6-car sets will provide ample capacity on the South route, and with the 185s withdrawn from the North route then there will be no problem with consistently running 6-car sets on South.
While the core will be fully electrified, the branches to Teesside, Scarborough and probably Hull won't be, at least not in the short term and maybe not in the long term either, and so battery units will be needed on those routes for the foreseeable future.

 

[brad465]

What range do the Class 802s have under diesel? How easily could they be transferred, say, to reinforce the Crosscountry service?

Their range must be pretty good; 802s run off wires between Newbury and Penzance fine, which would guarantee if XC ever got them they could get from Bromsgrove-Plymouth, even less than that if Filton Bank and anywhere else gets wires. I don't see why TPE would be getting rid of their 802s with this order though, given this new fleet is a combined capacity increase and partial 185 replacement/cascade.

 

[NCT]

Thinking about it a bit more:

Around 2034 (and +5 years from that) a lot of things will / can happen

- TRU infrastructure complete
- HS2 getting ready
- XC Voyagers getting replacement
- MML gets wired (this one less certain than the others)

Here is a possible rolling stock scenario
- WCML classic services get a fleet of Javelin-style high-speed regional trains. 805s stay on Chesters but 807s are surplus to requirement
- MML gets a fleet of straight EMUs

- 807s go to TransPennine to work Liverpool - Newcastle
- XC receive 810s, any 805s surplus to requirement, and TPE 802s.

I've not checked the numbers but I think they are there are thereabouts. Any shortfalls can be topped up as part of the MML EMU order.

 

[Failed Unit]

I think if the MML gets wired it would make no difference to the fleet. I think it would just run 100% on the wires and then have engines for diversions. They would still be useful if Chesterfield - Sheffield is not available or Leicester - Wellingborough.

It seems like the 802s are staying on TPE anyway (which makes sense)

We have had so many threads on putting wires up, by 2036 it is very possible we do see some more routes wired. It wouldn’t take massive mileages to start making more XC services candidate for this technology.

By then you would hope they have plan for the 15x (if they haven’t already gone)

 

[NCT]

I think if the MML gets wired it would make no difference to the fleet. I think it would just run 100% on the wires and then have engines for diversions. They would still be useful if Chesterfield - Sheffield is not available or Leicester - Wellingborough.

It seems like the 802s are staying on TPE anyway (which makes sense)

We have had so many threads on putting wires up, by 2036 it is very possible we do see some more routes wired. It wouldn’t take massive mileages to start making more XC services candidate for this technology.

By then you would hope they have plan for the 15x (if they haven’t already gone)

*If* MML does get wired, then keeping heavy electro-diesels running or even modifying the trains by removing GUs and tanks will incur unnecessary costs. Given the extent of straight EMU operation up and down the country, we can safely conclude that having full bi-mode capability just in case of diversions is not value for money.

Far financially more efficient would be to order cheaper straight EMUs from the get-go and redeploy existing electro-diesels to routes where their bi-mode capabilities are useful.

 

[3RDGEN]

There is no proposal to close the existing lines. These trains are for slower services, not the fast services for which the stock has not yet been announced.

The stock for the fast Liverpool-Newcastle services could be:
- 802s
- Surplus HS2 200m units
- New build

We don't know which and in what combination yet, but it's not these ones.

The only 125mph TPE services post 2034 will be the Newcastle ones which the 802's will run, given there's no commitment to infrastructure works north of York the expected/promised second TPE service to Newcastle may yet not happen. (XC could lose it's Newcastle service north of York and TPE take it).

 

[deltic08]

Since they're only mentioning charging facilities at Saltburn, Scarborough, and Hull, does that mean all the Redcar services will be extended to Saltburn or will those remain diesel?

New TPE battery trains have a guarenteed 90 miles range which means Redcar, Scarborough and Hull need to be less than 45 miles from the end of a wire. Ben Houchen has commissioned a study into electrifiying Teesside so that problem will be solved as the train can go from Northallerton to Eaglescliffe on battery for less than 45 miles and 25kv onward to Redcar/Saltburn. The only problem is that Alstom have stated that it takes 50 minutes to fully recharge the batteries.
York to Scarborough is 42 miles so is just on the limit. To be sure the Scarborough line could do with 10 miles of electrification from York to make sure.
Micklefield to Hull is beyond the limit at 54 miles so electrification is needed as far as Selby to prevent charging facilities at Hull. As there are two trains each way an hour between Micklefield and Hull, electrification would be justified as the other train is operated by Northern that also will be battery bimode in the next decade. This assumes that after 7 years of constant charging/discharging in the Winter months, range is still 90 miles.

 

[Zomboid]

New TPE battery trains have a guarenteed 90 miles range which means Redcar, Scarborough and Hull need to be less than 45 miles from the end of a wire. Ben Houchen has commissioned a study into electrifiying Teesside so that problem will be solved as the train can go from Northallerton to Eaglescliffe on battery for less than 45 miles and 25kv onward to Redcar/Saltburn. The only problem is that Alstom have stated that it takes 50 minutes to fully recharge the batteries.
York to Scarborough is 42 miles so is just on the limit. To be sure the Scarborough line could do with 10 miles of electrification from York to make sure.
Micklefield to Hull is beyond the limit at 54 miles so electrification is needed as far as Selby to prevent charging facilities at Hull. As there are two trains each way an hour between Micklefield and Hull, electrification would be justified as the other train is operated by Northern that also will be battery bimode in the next decade. This assumes that after 7 years of constant charging/discharging in the Winter months, range is still 90 miles.

All very well, but I think charging facilities at the termini are planned, and possibly even included in the rolling stock order.

The 90 miles claim could mean a lot of things. It could be the rail equivalent of WLTP (ie you'll pretty much never get it), it could be the "after 40 years of intensive fast charging" figure, or it could be a contractually mandated number which Alstom have to meet for the duration of their contract. Time will tell...

 

[eldomtom2]

The 90 miles claim could mean a lot of things. It could be the rail equivalent of WLTP (ie you'll pretty much never get it), it could be the "after 40 years of intensive fast charging" figure, or it could be a contractually mandated number which Alstom have to meet for the duration of their contract. Time will tell...

In any event, the existence of the charging facilities at the termini indicates they don't want to push up to the limits of the range in normal service.

 

[lowe1409]

The only 125mph TPE services post 2034 will be the Newcastle ones which the 802's will run, given there's no commitment to infrastructure works north of York the expected/promised second TPE service to Newcastle may yet not happen. (XC could lose it's Newcastle service north of York and TPE take it).

What about wcml? As much as some people here may hate the fact TPE has them, they're still gonna be running them long into the future. And isn't EPS supposed to be going to let HS2 stock run at 125mph?

 

[3RDGEN]

What about wcml? As much as some people here may hate the fact TPE has them, they're still gonna be running them long into the future. And isn't EPS supposed to be going to let HS2 stock run at 125mph?

They remain with 397's, perhaps one day CAF/Alstom will deliver 10 diagrams from 12 units without the 802 diagram that's currently used.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Sunday at 16:44 ==

Micklefield to Hull is beyond the limit at 54 miles

It's around 41miles so a round trip would be just within the alleged 90 mile range.

 

[dodecahedron67]

They remain with 397's, perhaps one day CAF/Alstom will deliver 10 diagrams from 12 units without the 802 diagram that's currently used.

In all fairness the 802 circuit also serves as traction knowledge retention for Preston guards (and one singular Airport guard who signs them, but that’s beside the point), and means Glasgow aren’t solely reliant on the Newcastle - Edinburgh work for 802 knowledge.

Means if a 397 fails you can swap an 802 onto a circuit with minimal disruption

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Still probably 10-15 years in them. They could be used on unelectrified Northern services like the S&C where the extra power could allow timetable improvements, probably converted to standard class throughout to up capacity.

Isn't the plan to build new 125mph EMUs for the core fast service, probably 200m ones, maybe even spare HS2 units? Thus the 802s will be spare and could just be cascaded to South TPE to release the 185s.

I can't see TPE existing in its current structure under GBR (when properly established), and may be merged with Northern (which might be split across the Pennines like the NR routes).
185s would do nicely on Calder Valley routes (which they already work during TRU diversions), or S&C as you say.
I could see TP South being operated on a "Northern" basis with 185s too.
802s are too valuable as 125mph bi-modes to be relegated to a slow route with limited wires.
They would be better utilised on ex-XC routes (eg Manchester-Reading/Bristol and beyond).

The Alstom order must also impact the other current procurements, as now Alstom can offer UK BEMUs with level boarding as well as Stadler.
If the Northern order also goes to Alstom that's game, set and match to them.

 

[lowe1409]

In all fairness the 802 circuit also serves as traction knowledge retention for Preston guards (and one singular Airport guard who signs them, but that’s beside the point), and means Glasgow aren’t solely reliant on the Newcastle - Edinburgh work for 802 knowledge.

Means if a 397 fails you can swap an 802 onto a circuit with minimal disruption

Also leaves the potential for future 10 car working if ever deemed neccisary as there's certainly not enough 397s to run doubled up or during engineering works (correct me if I'm wrong but during the closures in the wcml north of Carlisle earlier this year, weren't 802s running glasgow-edinburgh shuttles?

 

[D365]

The Alstom order must also impact the other current procurements, as now Alstom can offer UK BEMUs with level boarding as well as Stadler.
If the Northern order also goes to Alstom that's game, set and match to them.

All of the shortlisted manufacturers for Northern, ScotRail (and Southeastern?) are offering partial or full level boarding.

 

[Russel]

Regarding the claims of 802 fuel tank capacity issues for certain diagrams...

Is there anything stopping the 802s from being fitted with larger tanks?

 

[Bevan Price]

Thinking about it a bit more:

Around 2034 (and +5 years from that) a lot of things will / can happen

- TRU infrastructure complete
- HS2 getting ready
- XC Voyagers getting replacement
- MML gets wired (this one less certain than the others)

Here is a possible rolling stock scenario
- WCML classic services get a fleet of Javelin-style high-speed regional trains. 805s stay on Chesters but 807s are surplus to requirement
- MML gets a fleet of straight EMUs

- 807s go to TransPennine to work Liverpool - Newcastle
- XC receive 810s, any 805s surplus to requirement, and TPE 802s.

I've not checked the numbers but I think they are there are thereabouts. Any shortfalls can be topped up as part of the MML EMU order.

A bit premature. The WCML 390s are expected to remain in service until about 2043....So no replacement fleet needed before then. ...

 

[Fokx]

Since they're only mentioning charging facilities at Saltburn, Scarborough, and Hull, does that mean all the Redcar services will be extended to Saltburn or will those remain diesel?

All Redcar Central services will be extended to Saltburn. These have only been removed on a (rather long) temporary basis due to shortages of rolling stock as the extension to Saltburn required one extra train (or two units). The decision was made to better utilise these two units to strengthen services to 6 car, one on the Liverpool to Cleethorpes line and one on the Airport to Redcar line are now booked as a 6 carriage set from 3 carriage.

New TPE battery trains have a guarenteed 90 miles range which means Redcar, Scarborough and Hull need to be less than 45 miles from the end of a wire. Ben Houchen has commissioned a study into electrifiying Teesside so that problem will be solved as the train can go from Northallerton to Eaglescliffe on battery for less than 45 miles and 25kv onward to Redcar/Saltburn. The only problem is that Alstom have stated that it takes 50 minutes to fully recharge the batteries.
York to Scarborough is 42 miles so is just on the limit. To be sure the Scarborough line could do with 10 miles of electrification from York to make sure.
Micklefield to Hull is beyond the limit at 54 miles so electrification is needed as far as Selby to prevent charging facilities at Hull. As there are two trains each way an hour between Micklefield and Hull, electrification would be justified as the other train is operated by Northern that also will be battery bimode in the next decade. This assumes that after 7 years of constant charging/discharging in the Winter months, range is still 90 miles.

2 platforms at Hull (likely to be 6 and 5), Scarborough and Saltburn will be electrified to provide battery charging. There will be no planned extension of electrified lines associated with the new fleet directly.

 

[ainsworth74]

All Redcar Central services will be extended to Saltburn. These have only been removed on a (rather long) temporary basis due to shortages of rolling stock as the extension to Saltburn required one extra train (or two units). The decision was made to better utilise these two units to strengthen services to 6 car, one on the Liverpool to Cleethorpes line and one on the Airport to Redcar line are now booked as a 6 carriage set from 3 carriage.

And better crew utilisiation as well. The driver and guard got a near hour long break but it wasn't an official break (as no suitable mess faciliites were available, there is a portacabin installed for TPE to use for that purpose but apparently it was blackballed by ASLEF and RMT as unsuitable. TPE didn't bother asking before spending the money on it it seems...) so they then had to have an offical break later on anyway. Became a really ludicrous use of resources so I can see why it was temporarily nixed.

Fingers crossed the next attempt will be slightly better thought through....

 

[RUK]

Diagrams and timetables can be changed and very often are. I find it odd how people on here think them immutable. See also Class 350/2s to Northern.

The problem with those is the slow door closing times making the journey times worse. Newer things should be an improvement, not lead to worse journey times. It’s not that things can’t be changed - the principle is that they shouldn’t be made worse.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The problem with those is the slow door closing times making the journey times worse. Newer things should be an improvement, not lead to worse journey times. It’s not that things can’t be changed - the principle is that they shouldn’t be made worse.

Newer things should be an improvement, but journey times are not the only factor. Would anyone on SWR not say a 444 or 450 wasn't an improvement over a slammer? But slammers, particularly VEPs, could do a far shorter dwell due to the number of doors and people opening them before the train stopped.

I'd take a 350/2 over a 323 even if it added a couple of minutes to the journey time, particularly on a hot day. They are just a far better unit.

The one issue is the Hadfield line where it might mess up the diagrams and putting an extra unit in isn't an option due to the single platform termini. But there are options, e.g. using a 331 or running it as a circular service instead.

 

[stevieinselby]

Micklefield to Hull is beyond the limit at 54 miles so electrification is needed as far as Selby to prevent charging facilities at Hull. As there are two trains each way an hour between Micklefield and Hull, electrification would be justified as the other train is operated by Northern that also will be battery bimode in the next decade.

It might make more sense to electrify from Hull towards Selby, which could then also be used by Hull Trains and potentially by other Northern services in and out of Hull – that end of the line is a lot busier than between Selby and Micklefield – as far as Gilberdyke and you've got 5–6tph (although some of them might need further sections before they could be converted to battery operation).

 

[brad465]

Regarding the claims of 802 fuel tank capacity issues for certain diagrams...

Is there anything stopping the 802s from being fitted with larger tanks?

Would it be necessary with the TP electrification ongoing, which of course shortens time on diesel? The other thing to do is upgrade the power supply north of Newcastle where TPE 802s have to run on diesel.