Sadiq Khan says future of Heathrow Express should be ‘reconsidered’ due to Elizabeth line success

[JonathanH]

I think Andy Burnham is "going to war" against businesses that don't offer transparent pricing. HEx appears very low hanging fruit.

In what sense is Heathrow Express pricing not transparent? It isn't cheap, nor necessarily something everyone might want to pay, but it is transparent.

Seems pretty clear here

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[dk1]

I look at it that many just jump in a taxi on the rank and that’s not cheap either. If you want to pay more for a quicker train that is less crowded then why not?

 

[WelshBluebird]

I look at it that many just jump in a taxi on the rank and that’s not cheap either. If you want to pay more for a quicker train that is less crowded then why not?

A taxi doesn't take up precious paths that another operator could use. Heathrow Express does.

 

[dk1]

A taxi doesn't take up precious paths that another operator could use. Heathrow Express does.

But that’s a long term agreement for Heathrow Airport Holdings. Maybe something will change in 2028.

 

[Kite159]

A taxi doesn't take up precious paths that another operator could use. Heathrow Express does.

Get rid of Heathrow Express and whilst it frees up paths at London, those paths disappear before you reach Reading due to the Didcot semifast & Newbury trains using 110mph stock.

 

[Farnborough]

A taxi doesn't take up precious paths that another operator could use. Heathrow Express does.

Heathrow Express uses tunnels that were built by (the privately owned) Heathrow Airport... when the (state owned) British Rail then Railtrack didn't see the need

 

[PGAT]

A taxi doesn't take up precious paths that another operator could use. Heathrow Express does.

I was under the impression that nothing can use the mainline paths beyond Airport Junction because of conflicting movements elsewhere. And the Elizabeth Line doesn’t help for obvious reasons.

 

[Topological]

Get rid of Heathrow Express and whilst it frees up paths at London, those paths disappear before you reach Reading due to the Didcot semifast & Newbury trains using 110mph stock.

I was under the impression that nothing can use the mainline paths beyond Airport Junction because of conflicting movements elsewhere. And the Elizabeth Line doesn’t help for obvious reasons.

This

Sadly, the argument never goes away no matter how many times it is proven that removing the HEX does not help GWR.

HEX is a different product, so there is no way it can be labelled as a "rip-off" or that there is some plan to "trap" people. I expect no one even cares about HEX outside of those who want the rail paths for something else.

 

[Benjwri]

I expect no one even cares about HEX outside of those who want the rail paths for something else.

Really? I and others I have come across don’t think they should be used for something else. There should be an express Heathrow service. It shouldn’t cost anywhere near what the Heathrow Express does. Pricing it cheaper would mean the trains were actually utilised better and didn’t totally waste capacity while filling Elizabeth Line trains with airport travellers.

There’s an argument it shouldn’t cost anywhere still be more than the Elizabeth Line to stop demand rising above available space, but certainly the current price is far higher than that.

 

[Farnborough]

Really? I and others I have come across don’t think they should be used for something else. There should be an express Heathrow service. It shouldn’t cost anywhere near what the Heathrow Express does. Pricing it cheaper would mean the trains were actually utilised better and didn’t totally waste capacity while filling Elizabeth Line trains with airport travellers.

There’s an argument it shouldn’t cost anywhere still be more than the Elizabeth Line to stop demand rising above available space, but certainly the current price is far higher than that.

Clearly, enough people are OK with paying the premium fare - otherwise HAL would cut the price or cut the service.

Meanwhile, those of us to the south-west get really irritated at the lack of progress on the southern access... just get on and build it already.

 

[dk1]

Meanwhile, those of us to the south-west get really irritated at the lack of progress on the southern access... just get on and build it already.

Sadly there’s very little chance of that anytime soon.

 

[coppercapped]

A taxi doesn't take up precious paths that another operator could use. Heathrow Express does.

This type of argument is bonkers: I thought that people subscribing to this forum wanted to see more people using the trains and fewer using the roads...

...quite apart from the noxious emissions produced by taxis (no, they are not all electric) compared to the electric HEx.

 

[Topological]

Really? I and others I have come across don’t think they should be used for something else. There should be an express Heathrow service. It shouldn’t cost anywhere near what the Heathrow Express does. Pricing it cheaper would mean the trains were actually utilised better and didn’t totally waste capacity while filling Elizabeth Line trains with airport travellers.

There’s an argument it shouldn’t cost anywhere still be more than the Elizabeth Line to stop demand rising above available space, but certainly the current price is far higher than that.

I doubt you found others who wanted to subsidise the price reduction. Anyone who uses the service would like to pay less, but that applies to every single fare that we pay for anything.

My doubt is that HEX is a vote winner. Given that it is not free of charge to reduce the price, I cannot see any politician bothering.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Sep 2026 ==

Clearly, enough people are OK with paying the premium fare - otherwise HAL would cut the price or cut the service.

Meanwhile, those of us to the south-west get really irritated at the lack of progress on the southern access... just get on and build it already.

This

And ideally, the south-west facing access will be built. That is a separate point though.

HEX serves a demographic, Elizabeth Line serves another and the Piccadilly Line another. This is how it should be. No reason for any state involvement.

 

[Krokodil]

Heathrow Express started running nearly 30 years ago - how long do you think people need to find out 'Available alternatives'?

Many of the people landing at Heathrow will never have entered the UK before.

Does everybody need to be spoon-fed?

We're talking about foreign tourists, who may not have visited before and may have difficulties with comprehension.

In what sense is Heathrow Express pricing not transparent? It isn't cheap, nor necessarily something everyone might want to pay, but it is transparent.

The availability of other options is not made clear. It's not comparable to a supermarket, Heathrow own both the infrastructure, and one of the two services using that infrastructure. If they're abusing that fact to promote their own services only then surely there's a role for the competition commission (or whatever it's called this week)

A taxi doesn't take up precious paths that another operator could use.

It might not be a formal "path" like the railway plans for, but it's adding to congestion nonetheless.

 

[dk1]

Many of the people landing at Heathrow will never have entered the UK before.


We're talking about foreign tourists, who may not have visited before and may have difficulties with comprehension.


The availability of other options is not made clear. It's not comparable to a supermarket, Heathrow own both the infrastructure, and one of the two services using that infrastructure. If they're abusing that fact to promote their own services only then surely there's a role for the competition commission (or whatever it's called this week)


It might not be a formal "path" like the railway plans for, but it's adding to congestion nonetheless.

With all the information at your fingertips tips in this day and age I’m sure most foreign tourists do their homework beforehand. I know I do whenever going abroad and actively enjoy working out the best way to/from airports.

 

[Krokodil]

With all the information at your fingertips tips in this day and age I’m sure most foreign tourists do their homework beforehand. I know I do whenever going abroad and actively enjoy working out the best way to/from airports.

Even if they have, imagine landing at Heathrow, English isn't your first language, you're aware that there is a rail link to Central London so you head to the rail station. A member of staff sees you looking at signs and offers to help you. You are chinged for a HEx ticket without being told that you could have just tapped-in on the Lizzie Line.

 

[dk1]

Even if they have, imagine landing at Heathrow, English isn't your first language, you're aware that there is a rail link to Central London so you head to the rail station. A member of staff sees you looking at signs and offers to help you. You are chinged for a HEx ticket without being told that you could have just tapped-in on the Lizzie Line.

But they aren’t on commission or touting. They’ll offer the best value for any passenger regardless of employer.

 

[MikeWh]

You are chinged for a HEx ticket without being told that you could have just tapped-in on the Lizzie Line.

Or tapped in for the HEx.

 

[Benjwri]

Clearly, enough people are OK with paying the premium fare - otherwise HAL would cut the price or cut the service.

Meanwhile, those of us to the south-west get really irritated at the lack of progress on the southern access... just get on and build it already.

People are okay paying it yes, but given the constraints on infrastructure that doesn’t mean it’s a good use of the path. Especially in the current situation where Heathrow customers cause overcrowding on Elizabeth Line trains and sometimes even stop people being able to get on.

I doubt you found others who wanted to subsidise the price reduction. Anyone who uses the service would like to pay less, but that applies to every single fare that we pay for anything.

My doubt is that HEX is a vote winner. Given that it is not free of charge to reduce the price, I cannot see any politician bothering.

Subsidise? The Heathrow Express makes a profit of £38 million against around 4.5 million journeys. You could cut the fares by almost £10 and break even. That’s not even accounting for increases in passenger loading from lower fares resulting in higher revenue.

 

[Topological]

People are okay paying it yes, but given the constraints on infrastructure that doesn’t mean it’s a good use of the path. Especially in the current situation where Heathrow customers cause overcrowding on Elizabeth Line trains and sometimes even stop people being able to get on.

Subsidise? The Heathrow Express makes a profit of £38 million against around 4.5 million journeys. You could cut the fares by almost £10 and break even. That’s not even accounting for increases in passenger loading from lower fares resulting in higher revenue.

I would like to live in your idealised world

No commerical entity is reducing its prices without someone else paying the difference. The government is not going to tell Heathrow to reduce the price. Heathrow would offer to reduce the price in return for a subsidy, as any business would. The only way the HEX would be cheaper is with subsidy.

The path thing again by the way... What other use of a non-stop path from Paddington to Heathrow do you have in mind?

(Before you say HEX but government run remember that the government could charge what HEX charge and bring in money for the taxpayer, so anything less is a subsidy by any other name)

 

[Krokodil]

But they aren’t on commission or touting. They’ll offer the best value for any passenger regardless of employer.

Are they giving equal prominence to both options?

 

[dk1]

Are they giving equal prominence to both options?

By prominence do you mean advertising and signage or verbal please?

 

[Krokodil]

By prominence do you mean advertising and signage or verbal please?

Both, but particularly the latter. How does a typical conversation with a floorwalker go?

 

[Benjwri]

I would like to live in your idealised world

Not sure an opinion on what should or could happen is idealised, I didn't say it would.

The path thing again by the way... What other use of a non-stop path from Paddington to Heathrow do you have in mind?

(Before you say HEX but government run remember that the government could charge what HEX charge and bring in money for the taxpayer, so anything less is a subsidy by any other name)

A cheaper HEX service is physically possible though. That is in my opinion what the service should be. The government could also unfreeze fuel duty to bring in money for the taxpayer, or change Avanti prices to result in a similar premium to Hex as there is the slower LNWR option. A cheaper HEX is exactly what the TfL report that the original article referred to suggested.

The government is not going to tell Heathrow to reduce the price. Heathrow would offer to reduce the price in return for a subsidy, as any business would. The only way the HEX would be cheaper is with subsidy.

The government absolutely could do many things with this. Heathrow is wanting to build a massive new expansion, which is also what this report was referring to, that gives a lot of leverage for the government to make them add in measures to reduce impacts on local communities.

As it stands the Elizabeth Line copes with Heathrow passengers, but at peak times for Heathrow it can causes issues closer to London for local passengers to get on. Heathrow wants to nearly double passenger numbers. The Elizabeth Line simply won't cope with that. Given Heathrow is a private entity standing to profit hugely from the development they do need to contribute to the effects it will have on services around the airport. Giving up its Heathrow Express is not a stretch and is a tiny drop in the water compared to volumes of money talks about with the expansion.

I would also note it isn't as simple as people can pay more for the quieter train, because the negative effects of poor use of the path are felt in the suburbs of and central London, where people can't get on trains because of people going to Heathrow, while the Express ferries empty seats.

 

[JonathanH]

The government absolutely could do many things with this. Heathrow is wanting to build a massive new expansion, which is also what this report was referring to, that gives a lot of leverage for the government to make them add in measures to reduce impacts on local communities.

The mayor is, of course, quite unequivocable in his view that the expansion should not happen.

 

[Benjwri]

The mayor is, of course, quite unequivocable that the expansion should not happen.

Absolutely, but the mayor can disagree with the expansion while also advocating for conditions to be put on the expansion if the government does decide to go ahead, given he has no real say if it does.

Not to mention the report, which while My London claimed was from the mayor, was actually from TfL and signed off by the mayor, and looking into the effects the expansion would have on infrastructure around the airport as part of the consultation.

 

[Topological]

Not sure an opinion on what should or could happen is idealised, I didn't say it would.

A cheaper HEX service is physically possible though. That is in my opinion what the service should be. The government could also unfreeze fuel duty to bring in money for the taxpayer, or change Avanti prices to result in a similar premium to Hex as there is the slower LNWR option. A cheaper HEX is exactly what the TfL report that the original article referred to suggested.

The government absolutely could do many things with this. Heathrow is wanting to build a massive new expansion, which is also what this report was referring to, that gives a lot of leverage for the government to make them add in measures to reduce impacts on local communities.

As it stands the Elizabeth Line copes with Heathrow passengers, but at peak times for Heathrow it can causes issues closer to London for local passengers to get on. Heathrow wants to nearly double passenger numbers. The Elizabeth Line simply won't cope with that. Given Heathrow is a private entity standing to profit hugely from the development they do need to contribute to the effects it will have on services around the airport. Giving up its Heathrow Express is not a stretch and is a tiny drop in the water compared to volumes of money talks about with the expansion.

I would also note it isn't as simple as people can pay more for the quieter train, because the negative effects of poor use of the path are felt in the suburbs of and central London, where people can't get on trains because of people going to Heathrow, while the Express ferries empty seats.

Essentially, an opinion is idealised if the aim is an outcome perceived as better than what can reasonably be achieved under common constraints.

The government can raise petrol duty - constraint is voters
The government can raise Avanti prices - constraint is loss of revenue/profits
The government can prevent expansion of Heathrow - constraint is loss of benefit to the UK economy

Just reeling off things that could also cost money to the government does not make paying to lower the price of HEX a good idea. TfL have a brief that makes the report TfL issued make sense. However, that is not the same as the recommendation of TfL being a good idea for the UK (which the government represent)

I still do not know what you think happens when HEX is given up by the way. Are you pathing more Elizabeth Line trains on the reliefs between Paddington and Airport Junction? The only other option is HEX but not called HEX (as advocated by TfL) and then you are back to essentially not getting the best income from the service (and therefore subsidising it).

 

[dk1]

Both, but particularly the latter. How does a typical conversation with a floorwalker go?

All rail staff I know annd have worked with throughout privatisation (annd BR before) are completely impartial on such things. There is no loyalty to your own employer you just advise the passenger on what best suits them.

 

[Watershed]

But they aren’t on commission or touting. They’ll offer the best value for any passenger regardless of employer.

I would be amazed if the floorwalkers at Heathrow were even able to sell non-HEx tickets. There is no way they are impartial.

 

[Farnborough]

Subsidise? The Heathrow Express makes a profit of £38 million against around 4.5 million journeys. You could cut the fares by almost £10 and break even. That’s not even accounting for increases in passenger loading from lower fares resulting in higher revenue.

Pretty sure that HEx is part of Heathrow's Regulated Asset Base - so any reduction in HEx fares would have consequences elsewhere