Rebuilding Wharncliffe Viaduct doesn't look like it will encroach on any residential property
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Sadiq Khan says future of Heathrow Express should be ‘reconsidered’ due to Elizabeth line success
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How could the space for running lines be increased though? It would almost certainly require construction of a new viaduct to one side, which doesn't come cheap and may detract from the Grade I listing.
Hanwell station is a Grade II listed building as well.
zwk500
Veteran Member
Take a closer look at both ends, and adjust your expectations for what the construction will be (maybe compare the HS2 trace to it's final corridor).
Adding a 5th line to the north of Hanwell station will definitely impact the back gardens of the adjoining properties. They go right up to the base of the existing railway embankment.
HSTEd
Veteran Member
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You might be able to build a single track tunnel for freight trains relatively cheaply.
How would the regulator view the safety requirements for a freight only tunnel? At most one person in the tunnel at once, possibly none at all if the locomotive is fitted with ATO?
How would the regulator view the safety requirements for a freight only tunnel? At most one person in the tunnel at once, possibly none at all if the locomotive is fitted with ATO?
Here's my 6 tracking idea. From West to East:
Magenta, Stockley Park - Southall, widening on surface.
Yellow, Southall yard. Massive Reading style flyover for mains over connection from Reliefs to south side. Brentford branch doubled throughout with new connections to:
1. Piccadilly Line alignment, taking over 2 of the 4 tracks to South Ealing where a new tunnel (orange -approx 2km) leads to Acton yard. Freights, diversion, some GWR semi fasts use this.
2. SWR line to Waterloo, joining at Brentford. An alternative routing for Airtrack from Waterloo and Clapham Junction. Could be combined with western link services to Thames and Kennet Valley via Heathrow to limit trains reversing in the airport complex (HEX would be extended via southern link, to Woking and beyond, and Crossrail to Staines).
Magenta, Stockley Park - Southall, widening on surface.
Yellow, Southall yard. Massive Reading style flyover for mains over connection from Reliefs to south side. Brentford branch doubled throughout with new connections to:
1. Piccadilly Line alignment, taking over 2 of the 4 tracks to South Ealing where a new tunnel (orange -approx 2km) leads to Acton yard. Freights, diversion, some GWR semi fasts use this.
2. SWR line to Waterloo, joining at Brentford. An alternative routing for Airtrack from Waterloo and Clapham Junction. Could be combined with western link services to Thames and Kennet Valley via Heathrow to limit trains reversing in the airport complex (HEX would be extended via southern link, to Woking and beyond, and Crossrail to Staines).
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That is certainly a novel use of existing corridors, and moves away from the approach of bulldozing Hanwell station.
anthony263
Established Member
Should just leave the heathrow express as it is however when new lines are built to heathrow airport such as the western link it should be extended
I can't see much potential within the current footprint - other than - no more freight during daytime...
Maybe some incremental extensions beyond OOC (Hayes bay or LHR) if pathable. More use of the freight fifth line. But not really many.
Other than that, it's a fast lines tunnel from west of OOC to west of Slough.
Much like the Victoria/SE tunnel idea (fast tunnel from Battersea ish, to split somewhere to serve East Croydon and Bromley South - and for fasts) - or a SWML one - there isn't much left.
And for me, I will always prioritize increasing intra-London services so anything to get more suburban services to uniform metro frequencies is going to be more impactful and equitable. And enable more development where people want to be. No-one is going to build massive developments in Godalming or Gerrards Cross - or the other extremely well-served smaller commuter places.
Maybe some incremental extensions beyond OOC (Hayes bay or LHR) if pathable. More use of the freight fifth line. But not really many.
Other than that, it's a fast lines tunnel from west of OOC to west of Slough.
Much like the Victoria/SE tunnel idea (fast tunnel from Battersea ish, to split somewhere to serve East Croydon and Bromley South - and for fasts) - or a SWML one - there isn't much left.
And for me, I will always prioritize increasing intra-London services so anything to get more suburban services to uniform metro frequencies is going to be more impactful and equitable. And enable more development where people want to be. No-one is going to build massive developments in Godalming or Gerrards Cross - or the other extremely well-served smaller commuter places.
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
The issue with Heathrow Express is fares. Elizabeth Line fares are included in capping or the Travelcard, Heathrow Express fares are not. Whilst the single fare to Paddington isn't so very different between Heathrow Express and Elizabeth Line, with EL you've already effectively paid for your day's travel in London and with HEx you haven't.
Simply charge the same fare on Heathrow Express as you do on Elizabeth Line and my expectation/opinion is that most people who currently take EL from Heathrow would transfer to HEx. I know I would.
NSEWonderer
Established Member
The thing with HEX is it was setup to compete with other more expensive modes of travel to Heathrow from London, its quite often packaged in deals for foreign tourists aswell as simpler to understand and use for most that I've seen. The luggage space alone can be a issue on a packed Elizabeth line train vs that of a Hex train which has more suitable facilities. Whilst HEX is very niche it still has its benefits and a lot of people I know usually package the cost of it when planning their trip just for peace of mind when traveling. The elizabeth line fully replacing Hex would be arguably a poor idea as the train itself is too multimodal to replace a simple service in HEX.
I can see zero prospect of either Heathrow Express fares being dropped to match those on the Elizabeth line or indeed Heathrow Express being included in fare capping.
There is nothing in that for BAA.
renegademaster
Established Member
Deleted
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
Their desire for a third runway gives the Mayor and the government a lot of leverage over BAA.
Something will have to change, in my opinion. HEx passenger numbers are tanking but Elizabeth Line services are already overcrowded west of Paddington. Airport passengers need to be directed towards the dedicated airport trains rather than the overcrowded commuter trains, but the current fare structure directs them away from the dedicated airport trains.
I'd agree that I don't see BAA willingly giving up HEx. Even with the tanking passenger numbers it is still making them money.
Pedantic point - it's not BAA anymore - it's Heathrow Airport Holdings Ltd. 
Fair point well made.Pedantic point - it's not BAA anymore - it's Heathrow Airport Holdings Ltd.
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Perhaps, when the current Heathrow Express operating licence expires, TfL or Network Rail could buy the railway infrastructure built and owned by Heathrow. Then they will have absolute freedom to decide what should operate.
TfL might say that they should just take over all the trains, HAA might say that TfL should just put up their airport premium.
Which is unrealistic of course because it is unlikely to be for sale, and even if it was would be a very poor use of, ultimately, taxpayer money. Is there any way of identifying the value of the Heathrow branch? I would assume it runs into multi billions.
It surely has to be easier for TfL to explore running additional trains to Hayes & Harlington or West Drayton to deal with overcrowding in West London, rather than Heathrow.
The third runway will be Birmingham airport once HS2 from OOC is operational. One of the reasons HS2 was pushed and and phase 1 was kept. Journey time from Old Oak C to Birmingham airport will be around 32 minutes. Same as Gatwick Express.
Heathrow Express from Paddington is 15 mins direct to Heathrow Terminals 2 & 3, 21 minutes direct to Heathrow Terminal 5.
Elizabeth line from The City to Heathrow is 33 to 38 minutes if departing from Farringdon, 40 to 44 minutes if departing from London Liverpool Street
I was interested/amused to see that Flixtrain sells Heathrow Express tickets at 31 euros each
https://www.flixtrain.com/train-routes/london-heathrow-airport-london
Not sure the claim of a guaranteed seat is accurate though
https://www.flixtrain.com/train-routes/london-heathrow-airport-london
Not sure the claim of a guaranteed seat is accurate though
The only guarantee is that you have paid more than you needed to.
Topological
Established Member
Others include:
You have reached Paddington faster than you would have done
You have not had to stop at any suburban stations where more people get on (or shared the train with those getting off on the way to Heathrow)
You will have a level connection to GWR services (though that will change with OOC provided sufficient lifts are offered)
There are quite a lot, but it is ulitmately individual discretion about whether those benefits outweigh the cost.
It is, provided individuals are provided with full (rather than "curated") information about the available alternatives.
Topological
Established Member
Whose role do you think it is to provide such information?
Heathrow will not since they want people on the Heathrow Express. That is no more, or less, right than Tesco not giving you information on cheaper prices at Aldi.
The state could, but then that means spending money on adverts at Heathrow and that seems like a bad use of state money.
Websites and ticket machines all show lower prices for non-HEX options. So the information is there. The only challenge at the moment is that there is no comparable promotion to go with the efforts of HEX.
It is a far better use of state resource to promote London and encourage more visitors than to get involved in the promotion of already busy Elizabeth Line trains.
I think Andy Burnham is "going to war" against businesses that don't offer transparent pricing. HEx appears very low hanging fruit.
coppercapped
Established Member
Heathrow Express started running nearly 30 years ago - how long do you think people need to find out 'Available alternatives'?
Does everybody need to be spoon-fed?
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Why do you think that Burnham is 'going to war'?
And, apart from anything else, I thought air transport was the invention of the devil in regard to emissions so I would have thought that anything which makes air travel more expensive would be welcomed.
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