What is Control (not a philosophical discussion!)

[Omnishambles]

Incident Controllers are the more senior role and 'take charge' more. NR controllers don't tend to have interactions with TOC staff directly - they deal primarily with signallers, MOMs etc.

TSM = Train service manager. Some TOCs group by area, others group by service group (e.g., Avanti have the Anglo Scots, West Mids and North West). All TOC controls are set up very differently in terms of the division of responsibilities.

Not necessarily 'senior' as such as the grades were the same (certainly at LNW anyway). As far as taking charge, yes, they certainly did and liaised with signallers and incident response teams (S+T, PW, MOMs) as well as updating TOCs, TRCs and Attribution staff of developments

 

[GraphitProjekt]

At Three Bridges ROC with GTR we are divided as follows:

Thank you for these, interested to know what it means for the inner and outer NwR TRCs to *not* deal with any class 9 TL services, even though they'll be on the same tracks as other trains.

 

[mono1989]

Thank you for these, interested to know what it means for the inner and outer NwR TRCs to *not* deal with any class 9 TL services, even though they'll be on the same tracks as other trains.

As a Southern and Thameslink TSM (I sign both sides which not many staff do!) we do often use the Inner and Outer TRC's for alterations especially if they're running 2v3. We just have the luxury of a dedicated TRC for class 9 trains.

 

[endofthetunnel]

In York ROC for network rail we have
6x Incident Controllers
- East Coast N, Central and S, North East, West Yorkshire, Central
4x Train Running Controllers
- North, Central, South, Freight
Plus:
a VSTP desk, Info Coordinator, Senior IC and Senior TRC, and Network Delivery Manger and Senior Network Delivery Manager.

There’s also LNER and Northern control in the same room, plus Network Rail Delay attributors.

 

[Horizon22]

Thanks so much for this, very much what I wanted. I might make a little graphic out of this at some later date. Is it normal practice across the railway to divide TRC along signalling lines? Seems sensible.

Generally yes or places where the service provision / route / TOC naturally changes. For example as mentioned above whilst NR TV0 (a reasonably recent addition) deals with Paddington - Heathrow / Maidenhead, there's also cross over towards Reading.

I assume TSM means "Train Service Manager".
Interesting that the TOC controls still have a geographic split wherein a London-Penzance train will cross all the TOC internal boundaries as well as NR controller boundaries.

GWR reorganised their control responsibility a few years ago with the additional of a fleet controller. Before TSMs used to be split by service group; HSS (High Speed Services - basically anything that was an HST/IET service) and LTV (London and Thames Valley - turbo routes, the Marlow/Windsor/Greenford/Henley branches, Heathrow Express, local Oxford / Didcot Parkway / Newbury / Basingstoke trains centered around Reading). With the Elizabeth line coming along, the workload got misbalanced and so was reorganised.

There are pros and cons to both either organising by area or service group.

For completeness, Elizabeth line is split fairly naturally:

Duty Controller East: Anything running Shenfield <> Whitechapel/Liverpool Street (Paddington)
Duty Contoller West: Anything running Heathrow/Reading <> Paddington (Abbey Wood)
Duty Controller Central: Overseeing Abbey Wood to Paddington and regulation / handover / recovery between East and West

In reality this is a sort of cross between the way TOCs do it and the LU principle of "line controllers".

 

[GraphitProjekt]

In York ROC for network rail we have
6x Incident Controllers
- East Coast N, Central and S, North East, West Yorkshire, Central

What are the approximate boundaries of West Yorkshire and Central (which i'd assume is maybe like the Sheffield MDU area)

4x Train Running Controllers
- North, Central, South, Freight
Plus:
a VSTP desk, Info Coordinator, Senior IC and Senior TRC, and Network Delivery Manger and Senior Network Delivery Manager.

There’s also LNER and Northern control in the same room, plus Network Rail Delay attributors.

seems like the TRCs are crossing Route boundaries, because doesn't the whole ECML belong to its own NR Route within Eastern while the rest is "North & East"? I suppose in practice keeping that differentiation through the Yorkshire area would be illogical. Although not so much in the East Mids regarding Newark Crossing.

As a Southern and Thameslink TSM (I sign both sides which not many staff do!) we do often use the Inner and Outer TRC's for alterations especially if they're running 2v3. We just have the luxury of a dedicated TRC for class 9 trains.

There are pros and cons to both either organising [TSMs] by area or service group.

Interesting to try and piece together what the principle duties are of TSM and TRC and the interactions between them.

My uneducated assumption going into this discussion was something like the following:
TSM is focused on how a particular group of services is running from their start to finish, the disposition of relevant fleet+crew booked to run those services, and whether passengers who might have wanted to use those services can get round a disruption. For instance if a TSM is mainly operating suburban or local services around a city, they might seek out a ticket acceptance with a local bus operator but probably not if they were at an IC desk.
Whereas the NR controller is concerned with the impact of an infrastructure problem on multiple TSMs in a particular area and negotiating the requirements of different TSMs and that a "fair" solution is sought.

But that certainly isn't the case if you have a TRC dedicated to class 9s that run on the same tracks as many other trains, or having a dedicated TRC for freight which is the standard.

In reality this is a sort of cross between the way TOCs do it and the LU principle of "line controllers".

Does XR really have a "signaller" or an ECO in any way? Or is it that the Central Duty Controller is as close to the controls as makes sense in a CBTC context. I know that tram lines tend to work in a fully integrated way where one desk is in control of traffic as well as power and if there is anything in the way of signalling controls.

 

[rmHawk765]

Am I correct in understanding that Thameslink trains are only class 9s because of ATO in the core? I was under the impression they are treated as class 1s for all intents and purposes and the 9 headcode is purely because of the core.

 

[endofthetunnel]

What are the approximate boundaries of West Yorkshire and Central (which i'd assume is maybe like the Sheffield MDU area)

seems like the TRCs are crossing Route boundaries, because doesn't the whole ECML belong to its own NR Route within Eastern while the rest is "North & East"? I suppose in practice keeping that differentiation through the Yorkshire area would be illogical. Although not so much in the East Mids regarding Newark Crossing.


Interesting to try and piece together what the principle duties are of TSM and TRC and the interactions between them.

TRC and ICs areas do indeed cross routes (east coast/north&east) - they are geographic rather than administrative areas.

But as an overview-
TRCs-
- north is Scottish border down to York, and across to Leeds/Yorkshire/Manchester.
- central is York to Grantham ECML plus Sheffield area out to Immingham, Brigg Line, Thrumpton etc
- South is Peterborough down to Kings X

ICs from memory
- ECNorth is from the border down to Northallerton, Ashington branch, plus also Harrogate -York line, Newcastle-Carlisle
- EC Central is York to Grantham
- EC South is Peterborough down
- North East is Durham Coast, Middlesbrough, Hull to Gilberdyke and to Scarborough, Scarborough to York
-Central is Sheffield, chesterfield, and then all the bits around it Barnsley, Worksop, Immingham, Scunthorpe,
- West Yorks is Colton Jn through to Leeds, Wakefield, and then transform one route through to the fringe with North West Route through the Calder Valley or Huddersfield, plus the ‘power station alley’ of Drax/Ferrybridge etc.

 

[Horizon22]

Interesting to try and piece together what the principle duties are of TSM and TRC and the interactions between them.

My uneducated assumption going into this discussion was something like the following:
TSM is focused on how a particular group of services is running from their start to finish, the disposition of relevant fleet+crew booked to run those services, and whether passengers who might have wanted to use those services can get round a disruption. For instance if a TSM is mainly operating suburban or local services around a city, they might seek out a ticket acceptance with a local bus operator but probably not if they were at an IC desk.
Whereas the NR controller is concerned with the impact of an infrastructure problem on multiple TSMs in a particular area and negotiating the requirements of different TSMs and that a "fair" solution is sought.

A TSM / controller on the TOC side will be looking at lateness, crew and stock availability, service patterns, and trying to "manipulate" the train plan to try and get things back to booked service as effectively as possible. They wouldn't really be seeking out ticket acceptance or alternative routing as that would be the responsibility of the 'information controller' role.

As you say a NR TRC is dealing with what is actually available to run, determining contingency plans, negotiating (if required) with multiple TSM roles and liaising with the signaller about what they actually want to run and what is actually feasible.

Does XR really have a "signaller" or an ECO in any way? Or is it that the Central Duty Controller is as close to the controls as makes sense in a CBTC context. I know that tram lines tend to work in a fully integrated way where one desk is in control of traffic as well as power and if there is anything in the way of signalling controls.

Yes, they are called Traffic Managers and are multi-skilled to do signalling / electrical control / delay attribution for the Westbourne Park to Pudding Mill Lane / Abbey Wood section and are employed by Rail for London Infrastructure (RfLI). Different company to the operator.

 

[Kentish RYS]

Am I correct in understanding that Thameslink trains are only class 9s because of ATO in the core? I was under the impression they are treated as class 1s for all intents and purposes and the 9 headcode is purely because of the core.

I believe it is not the ATO in particular, rather to highlight they must go a certain route that can mess up the timetable a lot if misrouted due to the intensity, similarly some London Overgrounds are class 9s and certain Avanti trains (though I think that is just for standing out reasons at a few critical junctions). I am not 100% with the exact reasoning though, so someone may correct me

 

[GraphitProjekt]

I think class 9s for Avanti mean they're going through New Street and not Trent Valley.
EL trains are class 9 unless they're going TfL rail style and terminating at the high level platforms
On LO I think only trains that go through the East London Line are class 9
Transpennine Trains doing Liverpool-Newcastle/Edinburgh can be class 9 too, but if it's WCML going to Edinburgh via Carstairs its 1 again

So you could say that with regards to London at least, trains are typically class 9 if they're some kind of high intensity suburban service that runs between territories. Since Richmond-Stratford is technically all in Anglia.

 

[FGW_DID]

….HSS (High Speed Services - basically anything that was an HST/IET service)……

HSS = High Speed & Sleeper. The HSS desk used to look after the Night Riviera as well.

 

[Horizon22]

HSS = High Speed & Sleeper. The HSS desk used to look after the Night Riviera as well.

I never realised that was the other 'S' stood for! Neither did some GWR staff either I gather!

 

[plugwash]

Am I correct in understanding that Thameslink trains are only class 9s because of ATO in the core? I was under the impression they are treated as class 1s for all intents and purposes and the 9 headcode is purely because of the core.

I'm pretty sure the 9 headcode for thameslink predates ATO. I can see two advantages to using it.

1. The regular headcode system is simply not designed to accomodate the massive numbers of inter-region trains that thameslink (and crossrail) entail. AIUI the first number if a regular headcode is used to indicate the train class, and for inter-region trains the second is used to indicate the destination region. That leaves only two digits to identify individual trains!
2. It means the signallers can tell at a glance which trains are heading for the core, and which are not.

 

[Dfatcontroller]

HSS = High Speed & Sleeper. The HSS desk used to look after the Night Riviera as well.

It was the High Speed Services desk when I worked it.

 

[Annetts key]

I'm pretty sure the 9 headcode for thameslink predates ATO. I can see two advantages to using it.

1. The regular headcode system is simply not designed to accomodate the massive numbers of inter-region trains that thameslink (and crossrail) entail. AIUI the first number if a regular headcode is used to indicate the train class, and for inter-region trains the second is used to indicate the destination region. That leaves only two digits to identify individual trains!
2. It means the signallers can tell at a glance which trains are heading for the core, and which are not.

The root cause of this issue though is that the railway has not expanded the train describer systems used for the train reporting numbers from the 1960s system. Which is a four digit system, where the original specification was:
First digit, a number between 0 and 9 - the train class, noting that the classes have been revised over time.
Second digit, a letter (originally a subset of the alphabet, only ten different letters on some systems).
Third and fourth digits, both numbers between 0 and 9, combined, the individual train identifier / number.

Modern, computer based train describer systems can now support any normal alphabet letter or number in any/all four digits. As can be seen when signallers use the system for reminder words/codes rather than train numbers.

Where the train describer systems use computer monitors, there is no real reason now to restrict them to four digits. I have been of the opinion that any new train descrber systems should be specified to have six digits. Thus, once these are widespread, six digit train reporting numbers/code can be introduced.

 

[Tester]

The root cause of this issue though is that the railway has not expanded the train describer systems used for the train reporting numbers from the 1960s system. Which is a four digit system, where the original specification was:
First digit, a number between 0 and 9 - the train class, noting that the classes have been revised over time.
Second digit, a letter (originally a subset of the alphabet, only ten different letters on some systems).
Third and fourth digits, both numbers between 0 and 9, combined, the individual train identifier / number.

Modern, computer based train describer systems can now support any normal alphabet letter or number in any/all four digits. As can be seen when signallers use the system for reminder words/codes rather than train numbers.

Where the train describer systems use computer monitors, there is no real reason now to restrict them to four digits. I have been of the opinion that any new train descrber systems should be specified to have six digits. Thus, once these are widespread, six digit train reporting numbers/code can be introduced.

A very good summary.

And, while we are at it, we could remove the British exceptionalism of not having public facing train numbers

 

[Horizon22]

I'm pretty sure the 9 headcode for thameslink predates ATO. I can see two advantages to using it.

1. The regular headcode system is simply not designed to accomodate the massive numbers of inter-region trains that thameslink (and crossrail) entail. AIUI the first number if a regular headcode is used to indicate the train class, and for inter-region trains the second is used to indicate the destination region. That leaves only two digits to identify individual trains!
2. It means the signallers can tell at a glance which trains are heading for the core, and which are not.

As an aside, it was always meant to be the case originally that the same headcode should not be repeated within 12 hours. However Elizabeth line (and possibly TL) regularly breaks this now [1], [2], [3], [4]. As you say, the 4 digit system can’t accommodate this now and the 9xxx has certainly proliferated.

 

[John Webb]

.....And, while we are at it, we could remove the British exceptionalism of not having public facing train numbers

I was brought up in the BR Southern Region and most EMU trains had a public-facing route code number. Do services in that area still have them?

 

[Horizon22]

I was brought up in the BR Southern Region and most EMU trains had a public-facing route code number. Do services in that area still have them?

Not publicly facing. It may live on in some form when utilising certain codes for setting up the PIS but these days most modern stock will be able to select from the relevant headcode which auto-populates the stopping pattern.

 

[Starmill]

Thus, once these are widespread, six digit train reporting numbers/code can be introduced.

Indeed, especially since the two suffix characters are already there for every train / bus / ship already in Network Rail's data. A lot of systems e.g. on train monitoring already use the six characters as a way to avoid re-recoring over data when two (or indeed three or four) headcodes run on the same lines on the same date. It's just that most systems couldn't accept the fifth and six characters so they don't get pushed them.

 

[Horizon22]

You can indeed see a lot of these details on RTT. UID is quite useful occasionally and can demarcate the "1A01" at 0600 and the one at 1900.



The first two numbers of the Trust ID refer very loosely to what you could consider a "route code". I believe the two digits after the headcode are a time of day (X number of hours) marker, and the last 2 digits are the date. But a planner may be able to clarify that!

 

[GraphitProjekt]

FRL TRC: West Croydon/ Crystal Palace/Clapham Junction up to the overground Core. Clapham Junction to Wilsden High Level

a small point; what does FRL mean?

 

[Horizon22]

a small point; what does FRL mean?

First Rail London (Overground). Used to be Arrival Rail London (ARL)

 

[GraphitProjekt]

https://player.bfi.org.uk/free/film/watch-train-time-1952-online
I quite enjoyed watching this old film from the start of nationalisation that includes some detail on old school methods of traffic control. And interesting to see some blokes physically plotting a string diagram

Signal boxes, stations and yards report to district offices which report to divisional offices (~60 nationally) that report to Regional headquarters which all confer together on a daily conference call. (Some more reading on this website)

Indeed, a lot of activity at the lower level is signal boxes reporting verbally what times trains passed by so that the district office maintains some knowledge of what's going on and plots the trains as pieces of card on a wall panel.