TfW Class 158s to GWR

[XCTurbostar]

Modern Railways is reporting that 24x2car Class 158s are expected to transfer to GWR when replaced by their 197 units to allow 'IETs' to be transitioned back to Intercity roles:

Class 158s in use with Transport for Wales could be headed for Great Western Railway, the latter operator has suggested.

TfW Rail’s fleet comprised 24x2-car sets, although two are at Worksop undergoing repairs following the Talerddig accident in October 2024. Two vehicles are understood to be salvageable.

Even allowing for the introduction of the Class 175 fleet, GWR requires more rolling stock to meet existing demand, let alone that created by Old Oak Common interchange from 2029 (see separate story).

In a statement, a GWR spokesperson told Modern Railways: “We are working with DfTO and other train operators on the National Rolling stock strategy.

“This strategy includes GWR's medium-term strategic approach to current and future requirements in order to deliver passenger growth, increase capacity and improve reliability. A number of options are being considered and Class 158 trains, which are currently in service with Transport for Wales, would provide a good fit as this type of train is already in service with GWR.”

The TfW ‘158s’ will be replaced by CAF Class 197s on the Cambrian Coast line this autumn and must undergo handback repairs for Angel Trains including the removal of European Train Control System equipment. These ‘158s’ feature Perkins engines rather than Cummins ones as per the rest of the GWR fleet while the cabs have also received modifications which MR understands makes them unable to operate in multiple with existing GWR ‘158s’ without modifications.

It is understood the TfW ‘158s’ would be based at St Philips Marsh rather than Exeter, where the rest of the fleet is based. Their introduction would enable Class 80x units to be removed from inter-regional trains.

https://www.modernrailways.com/article/tfw-158s-sought-gwr

 

[TastyMaltesers]

It is understood the TfW ‘158s’ would be based at St Philips Marsh rather than Exeter, where the rest of the fleet is based.

Correction: the GWR 158s are currently split between SPM and Exeter. The arrival of more would probably allow some of those currently based at SPM to be cascaded to the South West if there is any capacity at the depots.

These ‘158s’ feature Perkins engines rather than Cummins ones as per the rest of the GWR fleet while the cabs have also received modifications which MR understands makes them unable to operate in multiple with existing GWR ‘158s’ without modifications.

That would be a pain, as GWR regularly diagram their various Sprinters to couple together regardless of where they are based.

 

[Geeves]

Correction: the GWR 158s are currently split between SPM and Exeter. The arrival of more would probably allow some of those currently based at SPM to be cascaded to the South West if there is any capacity at the depots.

That would be a pain, as GWR regularly diagram their various Sprinters to couple together regardless of where they are based.

If they are going to have to remove the ETCS you can imagine it wouldn't be much more of a step to remove what ever other modifications there are. It's unlikely that the modifications are external. Taking the cabs back to regular set up is going to be a big job in itself.

I mean you'd imagine the 158s could probably run as is but if the 175 debacle is anything to go by we are at the point where an illuminated Vs none illuminated AWS sunflower has ASLEF advising them to not drive the train...

 

[WelshBluebird]

So another old subfleet that GWR will need to wait for that further delays actually getting a new fleet ordered. How long can this go on for, and are we sure they won't end up with yet more problems like they've had with the 175s?

 

[BurningFeetMan]

With 24 more units i wonder if GWR may take over some of the western routes that SWR currently operate. This could alleviate pressure on SWR allowing them to offer a better service. Better experience for passengers being the priority.

 

[WelshBluebird]

With 24 more units i wonder if GWR may take over some of the western routes that SWR currently operate. This could alleviate pressure on SWR allowing them to offer a better service. Better experience for passengers being the priority.

Surely these need to be used so GWR can actually run their current services first!

 

[D6975]

Surely these need to be used so GWR can actually run their current services first!

Once the 175s are sorted, GWR will have plenty of units to run a full timetable. The 158s will allow the breathing space to enable the 175s to be sorted out, after that is done GWR will have a considerable surfeit of units for the first time in ages.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Once the 175s are sorted, GWR will have plenty of units to run a full timetable. The 158s will allow the breathing space to enable the 175s to be sorted out, after that is done GWR will have a considerable surfeit of units for the first time in ages.

We were told the various rolling stock changes for GW would result in all Cardiff Portsmouth services being 5 car only a few years ago so forgive me if I don't believe any promises until I see them actually happen!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Isn't it 23 158s, since it says two vehicles are thought to be salvageable from the crash, not two trains? If both trains were salvageable it would be four vehicles.

 

[CR165022]

In addition, aren't those two vehicles from the crash going to Northern?

 

[fgwrich]

If they are going to have to remove the ETCS you can imagine it wouldn't be much more of a step to remove what ever other modifications there are. It's unlikely that the modifications are external. Taking the cabs back to regular set up is going to be a big job in itself.

I mean you'd imagine the 158s could probably run as is but if the 175 debacle is anything to go by we are at the point where an illuminated Vs none illuminated AWS sunflower has ASLEF advising them to not drive the train...

I can’t see it being too much of a massive job to return the cab desks to semi original condition. FGW, when they commenced their large “West Fleet” refurbishment in 2007 saw at least the 150s and 153s receive new desk panels as part of the cab refurbishment, and SWR were contracting DB Regio (who even had a fully functioning cab desk available for testing) for the ill fated 442 refurbishment.

So another old subfleet that GWR will need to wait for that further delays actually getting a new fleet ordered. How long can this go on for, and are we sure they won't end up with yet more problems like they've had with the 175s?

I don’t see why GWR should have a similar level of trouble with the TfW 158s to the 175s - firstly they haven’t been left in open storage close to the sea at Holyhead or in the mixed conditions of the Fens. Secondly the 158s do seem to be fairly reliable at TfW, just like most ex BR DMU fleets at the moment somewhat overworked whilst having to cover for newer fleets. The main complaints I see about the TfW 158s is that the Air Con isn’t great or that there’s not enough of them (having to be thinly spread out whilst trying not to run them into the ground).

To some it’s not ideal seeing GW have another ex BR fleet, to others it is. The 158 at least is a fairly common DMU to GW, even if these are perky Perkins powered (so mechanical familiarity for SPM who works with both Turbo and 158 fleets) and by pairing these up should finally allow Cardiff - Portsmouth to run largely as 4 cars (maybe even 6 if it allows) and to push the Turbos back to suburban type duties, particularly with the expansion of Metro West.

And a small touch of irony in that most of these would have seen the South West at some point in their working lives already, having once been part of the common Wales & West / Wessex / Wales & Borders fleets.

 

[InvHst]

Aren't the TFW 158s in not the best condition. Most that I travelled on a few weeks ago aircon was gubbed and weren't in best condition at all

 

[TastyMaltesers]

...by pairing these up should finally allow Cardiff - Portsmouth to run largely as 4 cars (maybe even 6 if it allows)

I understand that, normally, 5 coaches is the limit on that route because of platform lengths or something along those lines. Of course, GWR have made some 3-car 158s out of 2-car units before, so it may be possible to do that with some of these units to enable more 5-car Portsmouth services

 

[tfw756rider]

Correction: the GWR 158s are currently split between SPM and Exeter. The arrival of more would probably allow some of those currently based at SPM to be cascaded to the South West if there is any capacity at the depots.

That would be a pain, as GWR regularly diagram their various Sprinters to couple together regardless of where they are based.

The way I interpreted it was that if Great Western Railway (GWR) acquired the (ex) Transport for Wales (TfW) 158s, they'd be based at the Bristol-area depot as they have Perkins engines like the 165s/166s, and would work routes such as Cardiff-Portsmouth, whereas the existing, Cummins-engined GWR 158s would be based at Exeter and work in Devon & Cornwall. I could be wrong though (I don't know as much about GWR as TfW of course).

 

[Harpo]

Given the age of 158s, transfer of TfW vehicles to GWR ought to be an end-of-life move. Major expenditure doesn’t make much sense.

An hourly Cardiff -Portsmouth service needs 8 sets. More than half of the TfW vehicles (15 sets/30 vehicles) could be used as the buried middle 3 cars on 10 semi-permanent 5 car sets, with no need to use the ex-TfW cabs on the main line again.

All supposing the 175s can be restored to useable condition of course.

 

[WelshBluebird]

by pairing these up should finally allow Cardiff - Portsmouth to run largely as 4 cars

I said earlier it was only a few years ago we were promised most services would be 5 cars so not only am I massively pessimistic that what you say will happen, its also worse than what we were previously promised.

 

[Caaardiff]

TFW are battling with reliability issues on the 197 fleet and there's rumour the introduction will be delayed. And 21 197s are supposed to be replacing 22 fairly reliable 158s.

Is the aircon a different setup on GWRs 158s?

 

[DS25]

I have had a TfW 158 with working Aircon recently so they have been trying to fix it, unit was 158831

 

[Snow1964]

Aren't the TFW 158s in not the best condition. Most that I travelled on a few weeks ago aircon was gubbed and weren't in best condition at all

None of them anywhere on the network are in great condition, it's more a case of varying degrees of adequate or worn. But they are of course 35 years old.

Is the aircon a different setup on GWRs 158s?

They have been modified to improve it, but still fundamentally not upto modern standards

Given the age of 158s, transfer of TfW vehicles to GWR ought to be an end-of-life move. Major expenditure doesn’t make much sense.

Yes, probably more patch them up, rather than complete refurbishment

An hourly Cardiff -Portsmouth service needs 8 sets. More than half of the TfW vehicles (15 sets/30 vehicles) could be used as the buried middle 3 cars on 10 semi-permanent 5 car sets, with no need to use the ex-TfW cabs on the main line again.

8 sets in service, rather more if include spares. If a set fails at Fratton/Portsmouth, it takes 2.5 - 3 hours for a replacement to arrive from Bristol, so really need a spare train at Portsmouth end (and being 35 years old, failures are not a rarity that can be ignored)

I said earlier it was only a few years ago we were promised most services would be 5 cars so not only am I massively pessimistic that what you say will happen, its also worse than what we were previously promised.

5 cars has been the target for years, and some trains at certain times get crowded even when 5 cars. Operationally would be easier if it was pairs of identical length units (rather than having to form up mixed formations).

At the moment 6cars are bit long for some platforms. From memory 13 platforms need extensions of 8-22m (about 180m in total) to allow unrestricted 6 car operation (assuming the not normally called at intermediate stations like Freshford and Oldfield Park etc aren't included).

Once the 175s are sorted, GWR will have plenty of units to run a full timetable. The 158s will allow the breathing space to enable the 175s to be sorted out, after that is done GWR will have a considerable surfeit of units for the first time in ages.

There is a difference between having enough to cover the timetable, and having trains long enough to not leave people behind. Even with all the 175s (if they ever get them all working), a number of trains will have to be shorter than ideal for passenger loadings. Remember unlike some commuter lines in South East with stagnant numbers, the South West has growth rates on some lines of 7-11% per year, and are already 115+% of pre Covid, so in 3-4 years some trains need extending from 3cars to 4cars etc.

In the 2 years since 175 decision (or about 3-4 years if include decision dithering time), a net of about 55 vehicles (allowing for withdrawing 3 x 4 car HSTs in service each day) needs to be upped to 100+ vehicles due to local growth.

 

[tfw756rider]

TFW are battling with reliability issues on the 197 fleet and there's rumour the introduction will be delayed.

Delayed past the current plan of somewhere between the 12th to 26th of October 2026?