Getting the most out of the new Alstom units for TPE?

[Northerngirl]

The platform can clearly take more doors as their own website shows, however it is also advised as a commuter train, hardly a 'great' intercity train, 110 is laughably slow aswell

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Thursday at 23:18 ==

Where are the pictures of the seats? Not seen any pictures of the interior yet.

Quite visible in the render showing the level boarding, and its hardly a surprise that they would spec the cheapest option

 

[800001]

The platform can clearly take more doors as their own website shows, however it is also advised as a commuter train, hardly a 'great' intercity train, 110 is laughably slow aswell

Without seeing a full picture of the whole train I think only the leading carriage will have one door and all intermediate coaches will have 2.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Thursday at 23:19 ==

The platform can clearly take more doors as their own website shows, however it is also advised as a commuter train, hardly a 'great' intercity train, 110 is laughably slow aswell

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Thursday at 23:18 ==


Quite visible in the render showing the level boarding, and its hardly a surprise that they would spec the cheapest option

A picture which shows 2 seat backs is hardly a basis to form an opinion on what the seats on the train will be like.

 

[RUK]

Alstom have shown some designs with unusual door designs before - this was the X’TRAPOLIS UK which they offered for Thameslink:



It seems that not all GBR trains will have yellow fronts, which is a disappointing inconsistency.

 

[dodecahedron67]

Are these going to be specialist charging facilities, rather than just OHLE in the platforms?

The announcement is certainly good news, and would not be surprised if other operators seek follow-on orders of this fleet type where appropriate.

“25kV OHLE conductor bars fed off local electricity supplies”

Apparently the seats are to be spaced out more along with fewer but bigger windows to ‘maximise views for customers’

 

[Sorcerer]

The level boarding is a welcome addition, and I don't think the design itself looks too bad aside from the somewhat messy livery. I won't hide my disappointment of it being financed by Rock Rail though because I hoped ROSCOs would be a thing of the past by then. But hopefully the new fleet will be an improvement over the 185s which will be almost thirty years old by the time the fleet is ready (or at least supposed to be ready).

 

[Grimsby town]

Seems a strange decision to me. For one, 110mph seems to slow for the ambitions for new highspeed rail infrastructure in the north which is surely going to be 140mph capable. Yes that's still likely two decades away but these trains will only be ~10 years old at that point.

The 120 metre length also seems far too short. The government are spending £10 billion on infrastructure upgrades, including extending platforms to 200 metres, only to order trains nowhere near the length that can be accommodated. The upgrade is definitely going to induce additional travel and yet this seems to only be a small increase in capacity over the existing class 185s.

 

[1D53]

Intermediate coaches have 2 doors.

Those saying 2034 is a long time need to remember these are for use on TRU, the electrification of Huddersfield to Stalybridge doesn't complete until 2032. If introduced earlier would they have sufficient battery range considering the hilly nature of this section combined with the requirement to then run to Hull/Saltburn etc for a charge.

 

[Gag Halfrunt]

The platform can clearly take more doors as their own website shows

I suspect that this particular incarnation of the Adessia Stream is the Aventra platform restyled by Alstom's design team.

 

[CapabilityB]

The whole thing seems like an enormous screw up, lower capacity, not fast enough to make use of the upgraded tru lines, very cramped seats. I guess we will soon be grateful when an 802 shows up

I don't think TRU is delivering linespeed over 110mph?

 

[ox_chap]

Great news. Now can we also order some 10 car versions, add a 3rd rail pickup on the side, and run them Bournemouth to Manchester at a 30 minute frequency.

 

[Aaron_TTL]

Why are we ordering short trains at small numbers for such huge expensive numbers and a delivery date so far away…

 

[AlterEgo]

Just 5 cars again will be another topic of contention in 15 years time. Hideous front on it!

 

[RUK]

This post on the previous, now locked, thread about the TPE procurement (which was known to be 5-car units) basically predicted what would happen - ~24-metre-long vehicles, Aventra-derived, 110 mph:

29 new trains for Transpennine Express ?

I think that several on here might quibble with "great". So we've got Northern tendering for 450 units separately from this relatively small TPE requirement. Running on the same tracks in the same area. Shouldn't somebody be banging their heads together? Are you imagining one type of train but...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Killingworth]

Intermediate coaches have 2 doors.

Those saying 2034 is a long time need to remember these are for use on TRU, the electrification of Huddersfield to Stalybridge doesn't complete until 2032. If introduced earlier would they have sufficient battery range considering the hilly nature of this section combined with the requirement to then run to Hull/Saltburn etc for a charge.

2 doors on intermediate units clearer here.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Friday at 00:13 ==

Surely the 185's will be cascaded to replace Northern 15x units.

Sent to whatever EMR becomes to cover Liverpool - Nottingham, displacing 158s?

 

[RUK]

It looks like they will have a plain blue carriage as the centre one of 5, as the Class 720s do. Black cab roofs, like the re-painted (rather than vinyled into GBR livery) Class 357s, with dark grey roofs behind the cabs. The horn grille position seems to look more like that on the Bombardier Talent 2/3, having moved down a bit from on the Aventra. I’m not sure about the blobby, rounded front - it looks like a Paris Métro train - I suppose Alstom are French, and built a lot of those, after all. It might have been interesting to see the SIEMENS Desiro Verve UK, as a follow-up to their Class 185s that TPE have now.

 

[treasury brain]

Main thing that worries me is if it takes until 2034 to put a train into service if you order it now … how long is it going to be before we are rid of the 150s/156s? I thought northerns plans were for replacement to start 2031/2

 

[positron]

I was just about to make a comment asking how they placed and order without a procurement but it seems I missed one. I'd only heard about the orders for ScotRail, Northern and GWR/SWR/Chiltern.

I too wish the ROSCOs would be removed but GBR explicitly doesn't include that for silly reasons.

Regarding 110MPH that doesn't seem unreasonable, from what I can tell these trains are for stopping services more than the super fast express services (where 125 might actually be helpful). TRU doesn't seem to adding much 125MPH track anyway.

Step-free boarding - the "elimination of gaps between the train and platform" - are also being promised as part of a commitment to accessibility, alongside three dedicated wheelchair spaces, two accessible toilets, family-friendly areas and cycle and buggy storage on each train.

This from the BBC article linked up thread is good to read. Multiple wheelchair spaces, and also some decent buggy storage
Obviously the key bit is the level boarding which thankfully I think will be required for all new train procurements.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Friday at 00:21 ==

I wonder where the batteries are in these units? Presumably not enough room under floor?

 

[CapabilityB]

Main thing that worries me is if it takes until 2034 to put a train into service if you order it now … how long is it going to be before we are rid of the 150s/156s? I thought northerns plans were for replacement to start 2031/2

Think in this case it's a mixture of: construction schedule, extra infrastructure capacity available for testing and driver training, full infrastructure capacity available for delivery of passenger benefits.

It's not a standalone project but intrinsically linked with TRU infrastructure.

 

[superkev]

Disapointing 2026 to 2034 build 29 trains. That's about not far off the duration of both World wars.
Must do better or the much slicker Chinese will do the same as they have with the euopean car makers. To be successfully in business it is said you have to be slick.
K

 

[Crithylum]

Regarding 110MPH that doesn't seem unreasonable, from what I can tell these trains are for stopping services more than the super fast express services (where 125 might actually be helpful). TRU doesn't seem to adding much 125MPH track anyway.

The door arrangement however does not make sense for stopping services. Wide double leaf doors (and 2 per side on all carriages) would make more sense.

I wonder where the batteries are in these units? Presumably not enough room under floor?

Almost certainly under the floor. As a conservative estimate, there will be at least 5 m^3 per carriage (0.5 x 1 x 10m), enough for at least ~10 tonnes of battery per carriage. As per my calculations on this thread https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...eration-using-class-897-as-an-example.306652/, a 9 car pendolino only needs ~50 tonnes total for London to Glasgow. Unlike diesel engines, batteries can be put basically anywhere in any somewhat reasonable shape, as long as the battery is designed for that specific shape.

The price tag of "almost £1bn" seems quite high. IIRC SWR got the equivalent of 150 5 car Aventras for about £900m, and EMR got 33 5 car trains for ~£400m. Have prices really gone up that much?

 

[positron]

It's not 2026 to 2034, they say they won't start being built till 2028 at least. They can't use them much earlier than 2034 anyway. I also suspect they're deliberately leaving Alston with some manufacturing capacity between now and 2028...

I suspect prices have gone up quite a bit, I suspect that all the choices would be expensive too, you've either got Alstom and Siemens with new platforms that they probably put a premium on. Or Stadler with an existing platform that does just generally cost a bit more. Not sure any Hitachi and CAF but perhaps DfT decided the cheapest doesn't mean the best.

 

[CapabilityB]

Why are we ordering short trains at small numbers for such huge expensive numbers and a delivery date so far away…

The door arrangement however does not make sense for stopping services. Wide double leaf doors (and 2 per side on all carriages) would make more sense.


Almost certainly under the floor. As a conservative estimate, there will be at least 5 m^3 per carriage (0.5 x 1 x 10m), enough for at least ~10 tonnes of battery per carriage. As per my calculations on this thread https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...eration-using-class-897-as-an-example.306652/, a 9 car pendolino only needs ~50 tonnes total for London to Glasgow. Unlike diesel engines, batteries can be put basically anywhere in any somewhat reasonable shape, as long as the battery is designed for that specific shape.

The price tag of "almost £1bn" seems quite high. IIRC SWR got the equivalent of 150 5 car Aventras for about £900m, and EMR got 33 5 car trains for ~£400m. Have prices really gone up that much?

You are though basing this off a publicity shot which doesn't show the detail of what's actually been bought.

And even if they are single leaf doors, at 2/3rds of each carriage is better than carriage ends.

There will have been clear metrics that need to be delivered to support journey times and dwell times

 

[Diedinium]

To me this train order just confirms that we're never going to get a fully OHLE operated rail network in the UK... there will just forever be the excuse of battery-electric trains to avoid doing things properly in the first place.

We could've instead electrified properly and forever be able to order cheaper, more reliable, lighter and more standardised trains... but alas it seems we'll be stuck with BEMU all over the network that inevitably keep causing issues with failures to switch over between OHLE/Battery plus more general failures from it being a more complex system on board the train.

I wish we could just do what needs to be done instead of penny pinching as always, guess it's just a representation of the modern state of this country.

Anyway, moaning aside - will these trains actually be equipped with pantographs and be able to run from OHLE when it's available? Charging while running if necessary? Or are they going to be more like the GWR class 230 where it uses a bottom contact charging system?

 

[positron]

They have a pantograph I would have thought that much would be obvious. They're not gonna spend billions on wires and use pure battery anyway.

Also there was always going to be a period where we had battery trains. We need to get rid of diesel running and this is a step in that direction. Obviously we should continue to electrify and at some point OLE might become cheap enough to where that's done more widespread but I can't see us doing more than Oxford and Bristol and maybe a few islands elsewhere in any immediate future.

 

[YorkshireBear]

To me this train order just confirms that we're never going to get a fully OHLE operated rail network in the UK... there will just forever be the excuse of battery-electric trains to avoid doing things properly in the first place.

We could've instead electrified properly and forever be able to order cheaper, more reliable, lighter and more standardised trains... but alas it seems we'll be stuck with BEMU all over the network that inevitably keep causing issues with failures to switch over between OHLE/Battery plus more general failures from it being a more complex system on board the train.

I wish we could just do what needs to be done instead of penny pinching as always, guess it's just a representation of the modern state of this country.

Anyway, moaning aside - will these trains actually be equipped with pantographs and be able to run from OHLE when it's available? Charging while running if necessary? Or are they going to be more like the GWR class 230 where it uses a bottom contact charging system?

We were never going to electrify to Scarborough and Saltburn. This was always going to be required if TPE were to continue serving those destinations.

And generally lots of comments about ROSCOs, they still exist because the government does not have much capital currently, certainly not enough to buy all the trains currently needed so ROSCOs will continue to be needed to fund it.

 

[TRAX]

Alstom trying to bake in their usual delivery delays?

Usual ? When was the last time Alstom delivered anything to the UK ? And don’t quote the 701s, that was Alstom having to deal with Bombardier’s issues.

First Adessia Streams

In the UK yes

 

[boiledbeans2]

Why is production not starting until 2028, all Derby are building is a handful of 345s...

Class 895?

 

[sh24]

As noted above ROSCO’s aren’t going anywhere as the UK government desperately needs sources of capital that aren’t gilts.

And yes Covid made things much much more expensive. Steel, power, labour are all massively more expensive.

 

[Zomboid]

price tag of "almost £1bn" seems quite high. IIRC SWR got the equivalent of 150 5 car Aventras for about £900m, and EMR got 33 5 car trains for ~£400m. Have prices really gone up that much

Batteries are still expensive

 

[Northerngirl]

Unless prices have gone up by 300% in the last couple of years, there's something very strange here. The extra 345s were about 200 mill for a 90 carriages, so 800 for 145 is unbelievable steep, surely the chargers cannot possibly be more than a couple million