New Alstom units for TPE: what could this mean for the 185 / 802 fleets?

[dk1]

Moderator note: Split from

New Alstom units for TransPennine routes.

Another new long-distance product for the UK railway market, as TPE orders 29x new 5 car units from Alstom. https://x.com/philatrail/status/2098154561911369884?s=20 TransPennine Express is to receive in 2034 29 five-car battery electric Adessia Stream trains built by Alstom in Derby, DfT said...

www.railforums.co.uk

Class 185s will continue to operate the South Transpennine route.

 

[JonathanH]

If they are for introduction in 2034, then construction presumably won't start for a good while, and the 185s will stay where they are for the next seven years.

 

[A S Leib]

Assuming that's replacing the 185 fleet (this isn't something I've been watching closely), that's an increase from 103 carriages to 145, which sounds like a substantial improvement. change from 153 carriages to 145.

 

[Liam L]

Assuming that's replacing the 185 fleet (this isn't something I've been watching closely), that's an increase from 103 carriages to 145, which sounds like a substantial improvement.

Some 185s will be retained for the Cleethorpes services I believe

 

[A S Leib]

Some 185s will be retained for the Cleethorpes services I believe

So these are mostly going to be for stopping services (are they even staying with TPE once the upgrade's done? Will the difference between TPE and Northern exist in the same way?), Scarborough and Redcar?

 

[Russel]

Some 185s will be retained for the Cleethorpes services I believe

Scarborough too, I assume?

 

[Galaxy]

I wonder if they would re-form the Class 185s so you have 17 units in total that are five-car, utilising the centre coaches from 185118-185151 to add to 185101-185117 to give some fleet size standardisation and the others ending up as two-car units with, probably, Northern?

 

[Banham7]

The BBC article (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cd94y7d7qyzo) states that they will be used to "run between key destinations across the north, including Liverpool Lime Street and Scarborough, Manchester Airport and Saltburn, and Manchester Piccadilly and Hull". No mention of Cleethorpes at all, so could this mean some 802s being cascaded to Cleethorpes?

They will run between key destinations across the north including Liverpool Lime Street and Scarborough, Manchester Airport and Saltburn, and Manchester Piccadilly and Hull.

 

[CeeJ]

Deleted due to thread merge.

 

[Kite159]

The surplus 185s will probably end up with Chiltern, they tend to get the TPE cast offs (170s & Mk5 coaches)

 

[Bevan Price]

The 185s will be over 30 years old by 2034 - possibly approaching withdrawal age ??

 

[JamesT]

The 185s will be over 30 years old by 2034 - possibly approaching withdrawal age ??

The 150s are about 40 years old now and still in use. Given the number of classes that would be in the queue for withdrawing first, it seems unlikely we’ll be sufficiently well off for self-powered units that they would be straight off for scrapping.

 

[brad465]

Assuming that's replacing the 185 fleet (this isn't something I've been watching closely), that's an increase from 103 carriages to 145, which sounds like a substantial improvement.

I thought there are 153 carriages (51 x 3-car), so if all the 185s were replaced it would be a reduction of 8 carriages. However the retention of some of the 185s means there will be a carriage uplift overall.

 

[Sorcerer]

I imagine the 185s would be cascaded elsewhere while the 802s would probably remain on the current routes they operate now. As I understand it even doubled-up 185s are often overcrowded so I would guess the new fleet would be to replace them on the South Route.

 

[eldomtom2]

I imagine the 185s would be cascaded elsewhere while the 802s would probably remain on the current routes they operate now. As I understand it even doubled-up 185s are often overcrowded so I would guess the new fleet would be to replace them on the South Route.

It isn't for the South Route, it's for the North Route over the Huddersfield line, which will be electrified by the time these units arrive.

 

[A S Leib]

I thought there are 153 carriages (51 x 3-car), so if all the 185s were replaced it would be a reduction of 8 carriages. However the retention of some of the 185s means there will be a carriage uplift overall.

Yes, 153 is when I meant.

 

[D365]

I imagine the 185s would be cascaded elsewhere while the 802s would probably remain on the current routes they operate now. As I understand it even doubled-up 185s are often overcrowded so I would guess the new fleet would be to replace them on the South Route.

Unless I’ve missed something, there won’t be any charging infrastructure to support BEMUs on TransPennine South.

 

[Class83]

185s would presumably remain on TPE South, plus could potentially run Liverpool-Nottingham/Norwich, depending on how that service is to be run.

Liverpool-Nottingham is minimum 6 diagrams (and tight turnarounds) so really 7 which would be 14 units.
Liverpool-Cleethorpes is 8 diagrams (reasonable turnarounds) so 16 units.

These 2 routes alone could therefore use 30 of the 185s, Leeds-Nottingham would be another 4 (really 5) diagrams so another 10.

That's 80% utilisation, so on 30+ year old stock the need for maintenance probably means there's not too many more.

They're won't be the newest by 2034 so replacing the seats and converting the first class section to standard while that's happening would be a good start, but the above would give half hourly Liverpool-Sheffield and Sheffield-Nottingham with good capacity. Leeds to Sheffield also has Cross Country as a faster service so would also be at least half hourly without needing to use a stopper. Moving from EMT would also benefit the Liverpool services as they could run later in the evening which is currently limited as the crew need to get back to depots, currently the last departure from Sheffield to Liverpool is 1943, if a NW based crew operated the route a 2043 arriving 2219 and 2143 arriving 2319 should be possible.

 

[NCT]

By 2034 the 185s will be nearly 30 years old. Any cascades will be reactive gap plugging rather than strategic.

 

[Bletchleyite]

By 2034 the 185s will be nearly 30 years old. Any cascades will be reactive gap plugging rather than strategic.

Still probably 10-15 years in them. They could be used on unelectrified Northern services like the S&C where the extra power could allow timetable improvements, probably converted to standard class throughout to up capacity.

Isn't the plan to build new 125mph EMUs for the core fast service, probably 200m ones, maybe even spare HS2 units? Thus the 802s will be spare and could just be cascaded to South TPE to release the 185s.

 

[Western Lord]

Those speculating on Class 185 cascades should bear in mind that they are a bespoke design for a specific purpose, i.e. trans pennine gradients. They are heavy, fuel inefficient and are unable to use Sprinter speed differentials.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Those speculating on Class 185 cascades should bear in mind that they are a bespoke design for a specific purpose, i.e. trans pennine gradients. They are heavy, fuel inefficient and are unable to use Sprinter speed differentials.

The S&C also has those gradients of course, and the Hope Valley. Does the S&C even have SP limits due to the amount of heavy freight? I can't remember.

They'd be unsuited to the Manchester suburbans (though you could always regear them to 75mph and even consider swapping the transmission to mechanical, at which point they'd take off like an EMU on steroids) but there's plenty they would be useful for.

If they're overpowered for even that, removing the engine from the middle coach for parts may be an option.

 

[Class15]

Those speculating on Class 185 cascades should bear in mind that they are a bespoke design for a specific purpose, i.e. trans pennine gradients. They are heavy, fuel inefficient and are unable to use Sprinter speed differentials.

Is there any way of changing the paperwork and allowing them to run all the way to Norwich? The 185s surely cant be that much heavier than the 170s?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is there any way of changing the paperwork and allowing them to run all the way to Norwich?

I'm sure they could run to Norwich, just not using SP (Sprinter) speed differentials.

 

[stevieinselby]

The S&C also has those gradients of course, and the Hope Valley. Does the S&C even have SP limits due to the amount of heavy freight? I can't remember.

No reason why heavy freight would mean no SP limits, but as far as I can see there aren't any on the Settle & Carlisle, it's an even 60 throughout with a couple of localised speed restrictions plus one section with a restriction for specific consists of freight trains.

Is there any way of changing the paperwork and allowing them to run all the way to Norwich? The 185s surely cant be that much heavier than the 170s?

A 3-car class 185 weighs in at 168t, whereas a 3-car class 170 is about 135t – that's a substantial difference, and is why the 185s are not allowed to use MU/SP speed limits. Nothing stopping them running to Norwich, it just means that they'll be slower than the units currently running (and unlikely that they can make up for that speed differential with faster acceleration).

 

[dodecahedron67]

The 802s can’t run south route services as the fuel tanks aren’t big enough as there is basically no usable wiring outside of Lime St - S Parkway & Trafford - Stockport

 

[Bletchleyite]

The 802s can’t run south route services as the fuel tanks aren’t big enough as there is basically no usable wiring outside of Lime St - S Parkway & Trafford - Stockport

That seems hard to believe when they run all the way from Newbury to Penzance on diesel. Do the TPE units have smaller tanks than the GWR ones? That doesn't however sound hard to resolve - if GWR have larger tanks then the part exists.

 

[dodecahedron67]

That seems hard to believe when they run all the way from Newbury to Penzance on diesel. Do the TPE units have smaller tanks than the GWR ones? That doesn't however sound hard to resolve - if GWR have larger tanks then the part exists.

It’s the diagrams that are too long on the South route. It’s an 8h round trip and some units do 2.5 round trips a day 0500-0145 without any fuelling time in the diagrams

 

[NCT]

I think the TPE rolling stock landscape immediately beyond 2034 is fairly straightforward:

Pure electrics - WCML and Liverpool - Edinburgh with full 125mph capability. The 802s can have their GUs removed
BEMUs at 110mph - Hull, Scarborough, Middlesbrough
Diesel at 100mph - South TransPennine, where the 185s live out the rest of their lives

 

[Bletchleyite]

It’s the diagrams that are too long on the South route. It’s an 8h round trip and some units do 2.5 round trips a day 0500-0145 without any fuelling time in the diagrams

Diagrams and timetables can be changed and very often are. I find it odd how people on here think them immutable. See also Class 350/2s to Northern.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Friday at 12:29 ==

Pure electrics - WCML and Liverpool - Edinburgh with full 125mph capability. The 802s can have their GUs removed

I don't think removing the GUs without replacement is sensible, though a single donkey engine or batteries may suffice for diversionary/emergency purposes the flexibility this brings is valuable.

That said I still wouldn't rule out that the 200m 125mph capable units for North end up being spare units from the HS2 order, and those, apart from possibly depot shunt batteries, won't have non electrified capability.