European Sleeper experience

[AdamWW]

It looks like the Brussels–prague train had a particularly bad patch in august, visible on zugfinder i think because it only runs every other day. It's not possible to look back that far for other trains. Was that one of the periods when there were a lot of problems caused by heat & speed restrictions?

Curiously, the times on zugfinder for the opposite direction don't seem (quite) so bad.

It would be interesting to know what is causing the delays (different issues on different days no doubt) and which ones are theoretically within ES's control.
(E.g. if one of the locomotives they use has failed you might argue that they should use a more reliable company, but if their train is blocked by a train ahead failing I don't see what they could do).

I do note the following from their FAQs, which isn't entirely reassuring:

https://www.europeansleeper.eu/faq

Are we reliable? Most of the time — though we’re still a young company, ironing out the wrinkles of international rail. Expect a bit of adventure, and know that we’re improving with every journey.

 

[danshrimp]

I do note the following from their FAQs, which isn't entirely reassuring:

Good! There's no reassurance they can honestly offer here. Better to be frank about it.

I think we've seen a bit of a shift towards this in their marketing of late, with their website offering the opportunity to "travel back in time aboard our vintage night train — where classic charm meets modern comfort", their rebranding of couchettes to "classic", and so on.

Of course one can grumble about whether they should charge the prices they charge for such a "vintage" experience, but they've at least decided it's best to be honest about (and lean into) what it is they're offering and set expectations accordingly.

 

[LUYMun]

For any red pen bashers, the maiden Milan-Brussels train will be hauled by Vectron locomotive 6193 042 as that has been sighted in heading south in the Swiss Alps being recently vinyled with Train Charter Services logos.

 

[superalbs]

For any red pen bashers, the maiden Milan-Brussels train will be hauled by Vectron locomotive 6193 042 as that has been sighted in heading south in the Swiss Alps being recently vinyled with Train Charter Services logos.

It's a nice bit of haulage. And 483003/483004 on the Italian section!

 

[Coleridge]

Good! There's no reassurance they can honestly offer here. Better to be frank about it.

I think we've seen a bit of a shift towards this in their marketing of late, with their website offering the opportunity to "travel back in time aboard our vintage night train — where classic charm meets modern comfort", their rebranding of couchettes to "classic", and so on.

Of course one can grumble about whether they should charge the prices they charge for such a "vintage" experience, but they've at least decided it's best to be honest about (and lean into) what it is they're offering and set expectations accordingly.

I'd imagine that the majority of passengers don't want an "adventure", nor "vintage" carriages without aircon, power sockets or WiFi, but rather a comfortable, reliable service that gets them to where they want to be.

From what I read on this thread, European Sleeper is for rail enthusiasts and those on an extremely tight budget. I wouldn't touch them with a bargepole.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think one thing ES does highlight is that if it's a company in its own right the opportunities to offer acceptance and use other rolling stock in a failure is reduced. That is demonstrated within the UK where GWR can easily rustle up a 5 car 80x if the sleeper stock has a problem and the Cally can't, but equally the Cally does seem to reasonably easily be able to offer acceptance on LNER and Avanti. The European market is a lot less collaborative in that way.

I don't think I'd say OeBB have necessarily done that much better either, though they have the resources for new stock at least. I think they have overexpanded too quickly rather than concentrating on getting it *very* right on a couple of key routes, and so have some of the same issues that ES do. Though I think I'd say OeBB's operation is a step or two above, a bit like the old CityNightLine operation (before it just became a DB brand) was a little bit better than traditional D-Zug or EuroNight collaborative night trains.

 

[danshrimp]

I'd imagine that the majority of passengers don't want an "adventure", nor "vintage" carriages without aircon, power sockets or WiFi, but rather a comfortable, reliable service that gets them to where they want to be.

Nor is it really what they want to offer, but it's all they've got. They haven't got the finances for new rolling stock and this is the best of the second hand stock available. So a vintage service is what they're offering, and it's up to punters whether they wish to take up the offer.

For what it's worth, while people might not go out of their way for it necessarily, I think more passengers are willing to accept or even enjoy "old school comfort" than we give them credit for - at least in the leisure market. I am always shocked by the positive response I get from friends, colleagues and family when I show them pictures of knackered old ES/SNCF couchettes I've used (and to be fair I find the ES's typical Bvcmz couchettes, with air con, power sockets and excellent tables, more than adequate).

ES are anticipating 250,000 total passengers this year, which you don't get from rail enthusiasts alone.

 

[AlterEgo]

I'd imagine that the majority of passengers don't want an "adventure", nor "vintage" carriages without aircon, power sockets or WiFi, but rather a comfortable, reliable service that gets them to where they want to be.

From what I read on this thread, European Sleeper is for rail enthusiasts and those on an extremely tight budget. I wouldn't touch them with a bargepole.

It's not *just* for those people - they have a number of products at different price points. Including private sleepers of course. The point is, while, yes, a lot of the clientele aren't time sensitive, if you're posting delays of 400 and 800 minutes on the regular - even if it isn't your fault - the experience becomes a big drag on trains which don't have a shower or a dining car.

A lot of modern sleeper travel is based on vibes and novelty, so it's important ES avoids dread situations which will ruin both aspects of that experience.

 

[AdamWW]

ES are anticipating 250,000 total passengers this year, which you don't get from rail enthusiasts alone.

In my entirely unrepresentative survey of the four people I shared a compartment with when I used the European Sleeper, none of them were enthusiasts.
None were from Europe either. I don't know to what extent they knew what to expect but they didn't seem particularly put out by what they did find.

I do know someone who used it recently who said that the staff turned out to be enthusiasts...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Nor is it really what they want to offer, but it's all they've got. They haven't got the finances for new rolling stock and this is the best of the second hand stock available. So a vintage service is what they're offering, and it's up to punters whether they wish to take up the offer.

In the end it's their business and if it's making money that's cool, or even if it's not and the investors want to keep funding it that's fine too. But that doesn't mean they should be immune to criticism from impartial reviewers because that criticism is pretty much entirely valid. If you watch those reviews and say "no problem" then go ahead and be their customer, you will no doubt be satisfied and that's fine. But I don't think they should somehow be able to hide service that is well below par (whoever's fault it is) on that basis either, people should know what it's like so as to be able to make an informed decision, just as they can about, for instance, flying with Ryanair, another transport operation that has significant disadvantages as well as advantages.

And no I've not been on it. I have done a lot of travel in my 20s on classic overnighters and it gives the feel of those to a fair extent, though those, while often late, were almost never cancelled. It's that unreliability that would be the main offputter. My holiday entitlement is too valuable to be wasting it on non-operating or heavily delayed overnight trains. Yes, flights get cancelled, but it's incredibly rare in practice. And yes, that's a big offputter for the Cally too (at least with GWR it being canned outright is unlikely even if I might have to put up with a seat in an 80x) and is something both operations really need to get a handle on.

 

[Gag Halfrunt]

Nor is it really what they want to offer, but it's all they've got. They haven't got the finances for new rolling stock and this is the best of the second hand stock available. So a vintage service is what they're offering, and it's up to punters whether they wish to take up the offer.

Nox are developing compartment layouts that can be fitted into open seating cars. Conventional couchette or sleeper compartments won't work unless you can rebuild the bodysides with different window spacing.

OeBB were fortunate enough to have some redundant compartment seating cars which they converted into couchettes.

 

[superalbs]

Last night's Brussels to Prague service has just arrived in Berlin about 7 hours late, where it will be cut short and turned around.

That's another quite reliable service in the bag! I hope nobody is super negative about the journey.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Nox are developing compartment layouts that can be fitted into open seating cars. Conventional couchette or sleeper compartments won't work unless you can rebuild the bodysides with different window spacing.

That's not necessarily true. A regular 26.2m RIC coach with first class window spacing (usually 11 windows I think) will give you a perfectly good couchette car if you build the partitions. A standard class one (12 windows) would convert fairly well into sleeper compartments.

 

[AdamWW]

Last night's Brussels to Prague service has just arrived in Berlin about 7 hours late, where it will be cut short and turned around.

That's another quite reliable service in the bag! I hope nobody is super negative about the journey.

That's not great at all. I think it did have a significant diversion thanks to the transport strike in the Netherlands which may not have helped.

Meanwhile Zugfinder appears to be showing a 427 minute delay at Usti nad Labem hl.n. which doesn't seem to make much sense.

 

[Austriantrain]

I don't think I'd say OeBB have necessarily done that much better either, though they have the resources for new stock at least. I think they have overexpanded too quickly rather than concentrating on getting it *very* right on a couple of key routes, and so have some of the same issues that ES do.

I am not sure you can accuse ÖBB NJ of "overexpanding"; their main network is still the night train network that was there before NJ was created, and expansions to Brussels and Amsterdam do not, by themselves, seem to be the problem (Paris was a bit different). Operationally, both ÖBB and ES have the same major problem: running long distances through Germany, which at night can be even worse than during the day. And Italy doesn't always handle third-party trains very well (or even their own, since Vienna/Munich - Rome is supposed to be an ÖBB/TI cooperation, although it does not feel that way). Unfortunately, the lack of control over what happens to the train once it's away from its "home country" significantly reduces reliability of night trains.

Additionally, both have more than their fair share of rolling stock issues (and the new ÖBB NJ sets are no exception, unfortunately).

 

[Bletchleyite]

I am not sure you can accuse ÖBB NJ of "overexpanding"; their main network is still the night train network that was there before NJ was created, and expansions to Brussels and Amsterdam do not, by themselves, seem to be the problem (Paris was a bit different).

That may be so, but they did reopen it all after it went away for a bit, and so could have done so more slowly.

Rolling stock problems can of course be mitigated by using it less intensively and having more strategic spares around the network. That means it's less profitable of course, but even so there are options.

 

[danshrimp]

Well and, indeed, ÖBB have scaled back their Nightjet expansion plans fairly considerably (in favour of Railjet expansion). They cut back their order for NJ2s from 33 down to 24 trainsets, and looking at their expansion plans from 2021, by my count only one of those routes are now running.

 

[gysev]

Today, European Sleeper's first train from Milano arrived in Brussels with only a 20' delay. The train then ran empty to Denderleeuw for cleaning. Unfortunately, a serious mishap took place in Denderleeuw: while the locomotive ran round, the coaches started rolling away and they collided with the engine. The return working this evening will be - at best - seriously delayed. The photo shows the departure of the empty stock from Bruxelles Midi to Denderleeuw.

 

[superalbs]

Today, European Sleeper's first train from Milano arrived in Brussels with only a 20' delay. The train then ran empty to Denderleeuw for cleaning. Unfortunately, a serious mishap took place in Denderleeuw: while the locomotive ran round, the coaches started rolling away and they collided with the engine. The return working this evening will be - at best - seriously delayed. The photo shows the departure of the empty stock from Bruxelles Midi to Denderleeuw.

Even the carriages are running away from European Sleeper, lol.

 

[D6130]

Today, European Sleeper's first train from Milano arrived in Brussels with only a 20' delay. The train then ran empty to Denderleeuw for cleaning. Unfortunately, a serious mishap took place in Denderleeuw: while the locomotive ran round, the coaches started rolling away and they collided with the engine. The return working this evening will be - at best - seriously delayed. The photo shows the departure of the empty stock from Bruxelles Midi to Denderleeuw.

Oh dear! Someone forgot to apply the handbrake?

 

[BRX]

Well it's showing on the departure board at brussels midi with +1.5h delay.

 

[popeter45]

Oh dear! Someone forgot to apply the handbrake?

had that happen a few years ago with a Nightjet in hannover the day prior too me traveling
at least had the rest of the day too shift plans

 

[danshrimp]

I suppose better that it happens at the Brussels end of the route, if it's going to happen anywhere - they might have a slightly better shot at rustling up spare loco/carriages. Fingers crossed they're able to make it work.

 

[BRX]

Well it's showing on the departure board at brussels midi with +1.5h delay.

Now revised to 30 mins delay.
Edit - That must have been a mistake in the announcement system. 5 minutes later given as 90mins again.

 

[gysev]

There was no damage. The coaches arrived back in the yard 15 minutes ago and the engine is now running round. A 90' delay seems about right.

 

[superalbs]

Tonight's inaugural Brussels to Milan service is currently running around 3 hours late, if it has even left. Quite reliable!

 

[gysev]

The empty stock left Denderleeuw at 22.24, a delay of 160 minutes.

 

[BRX]

It left about 2h45 late. On the move now.