Connections from Paddington at Bristol Temple Meads

[kentrailman]

Apologies if discussed before but I can't find it if so. Just a little rant about connections at Bristol Temple Meads from London Paddington trains onward to Weston Super Mare ( and local Taunton ) trains. Throughout the day the pattern is the same. The incoming trains from Paddington tend to arrive at Bristol just five or so minutes after a local train to Weston or Taunton has left meaning there is usually a wait of about 25 minutes for the next Weston train. Even the through trains from Paddington to Weston tend to sit for 15 minutes or so at Temple Meads.

Presumably the reason for this is to mitigate delay repay claims from stations between Bristol and Weston . Is there any other reason? Pathing for cross country trains perhaps but it seems more than a coincidence the way the times are so frustrating. Are these local stations a delay repay hotspot?!!! Very annoying.

 

[Gaelan]

Presumably the reason for this is to mitigate delay repay claims from stations between Bristol and Weston .

I highly doubt it's this; surely the higher patronage from being able to advertise better journey times to London would far outweigh any cost in delay repay. More generally, I frankly doubt enough people bother claiming delay repay for it to be a major consideration in timetabling.

I'm sure there will be some reason this was the only way the paths all worked (without a recast of half the country); I certainly hope there's a long-term ambition to fix it.

 

[The exile]

Just how much demand is there from stations east of Bath to Bristol - Taunton line intermediates?

 

[kentrailman]

Just how much demand is there from stations east of Bath to Bristol - Taunton line intermediates?

From my experience at various times of day there is always quite a crowd that gets off the train from paddington then crosses platform and sits waiting for the onward Weston/Taunton local train. There are also quite a few through trains ( which often sit and wait at Temple Meads as above) so this presumably reflects demand.

 

[Snow1964]

Just how much demand is there from stations east of Bath to Bristol - Taunton line intermediates?

Surprisingly quite a lot when look at Origin - destination matrix for stations like Weston super Mare, Bridgewater, Nailsea and Backwell, Taunton, Bath Spa, Chippenham etc

 

[zwk500]

Apologies if discussed before but I can't find it if so. Just a little rant about connections at Bristol Temple Meads from London Paddington trains onward to Weston Super Mare ( and local Taunton ) trains. Throughout the day the pattern is the same. The incoming trains from Paddington tend to arrive at Bristol just five or so minutes after a local train to Weston or Taunton has left meaning there is usually a wait of about 25 minutes for the next Weston train. Even the through trains from Paddington to Weston tend to sit for 15 minutes or so at Temple Meads.

Presumably the reason for this is to mitigate delay repay claims from stations between Bristol and Weston.

Mitigating delay repay claims is simply not a consideration for the timetable.

Is there any other reason? Pathing for cross country trains perhaps but it seems more than a coincidence the way the times are so frustrating. Are these local stations a delay repay hotspot?!!! Very annoying.

The Weston-s-M to Avonmouth is constrained by the single lines at both Weston and Clifton/Avonmouth.
The Cardiff-Taunton is pathed into a slot over the single track Weston Loop that allows the XC to overtake.
The Weston-Avonmouth/Severn Beach train also has to interwork with the triangular diagram where it runs Weston - Severn Beach - Temple Meads - Filton - Avonmouth - Weston.
The Cardiff and Weston-Avonmouth runs approximately half-hour apart from each other.
The XC runs approximately half-hour apart from the GWR London-Weston services (1tph peak/1tp2h off-peak)

But sure, timetable planners are deliberately screwing with delay repay.

FWIW I'm not immune to the pain - the XC services from Birmingham arrives just 2 or 3 minutes before the local towards Clifton down departs. Obviously not a valid connection (officially 10 minutes required at Temple Meads), so you were meant to spend half an hour kicking around waiting for the next one. Very painful when I lived in Bristol but had to work from Birmingham every so often.

Ultimately only so many connections can be timed for, and those that miss out are going to feel annoyed.

 

[Snow1964]

Ultimately only so many connections can be timed for, and those that miss out are going to feel annoyed.

Although at Bristol Temple it is close to zero that are timed conveniently (allowing 10 minutes connection)

Example starting with arrivals at midday
1206 arrival from Filton Abbey Wood, and 1207 arrival from Manchester (both terminating), connect at 12:22 to Portsmouth, 12:25 to Weston super Mare, 12:29 to Cardiff, 12:30 to London Paddington

Next arrivals are 12:13 from Oxford, 12:15 from Exeter, 12:18 from Cardiff, 12:19 from Avonmouth, three miss the Portsmouth via Bath train, the latter two miss the Weston super Mare train

It carries on, many connections below 10 minutes or nearer 20-35 minutes, virtually nothing is great

 

[kentrailman]

Mitigating delay repay claims is simply not a consideration for the timetable.

Surely it must be. What about recovery time allowances etc? Surely they take delay repay into account wihen thinking about connections?

 

[Class15]

Mitigating delay repay claims is simply not a consideration for the timetable.

Really?

What about services whose public arrival time is several minutes later than the WTT time?

 

[Starmill]

Really?

What about services whose public arrival time is several minutes later than the WTT time?

That's often specified in the TPR. It's usually there instead of taking engineering time, at the end of a journey only, which is a "hard" part of the timetabled journey time and not optional.

You're right that applying the offset for more than a minute or two as required for engineering time, or doing both, is sharp practice. Engineering time however isn't there to mitigate against claims for compensation, it's there to ensure that the system as a whole works adequately well.

Surely they take delay repay into account wihen thinking about connections?

If anything, the reverse is true. They want people to be offered connections by the journey planners so they buy more tickets. A lot of people forget to claim in time, or simply can't be bothered.

Just how much demand is there from stations east of Bath to Bristol - Taunton line intermediates?

There are eleven through trains a day to Weston-super-Mare, most of which call at Nailsea & Backwell, Yatton and Worle. There are two that go on to serve Highbridge & Burnham and Bridgwater. So quite a lot really.

 

[zwk500]

Surely it must be. What about recovery time allowances etc? Surely they take delay repay into account wihen thinking about connections?

Really?

What about services whose public arrival time is several minutes later than the WTT time?

That's to protect PPM, fundamentally.

It's only Performance Allowance (Diamond time) that's relevant to delay mitigation, and that (like Public offset) is usually only 1 or 2 minutes at most, so delay repay starting at 15 minutes really isn't considered. Performance allowance or Public offset is also usually added at the request of the TOC, so it might be that GWR look at a service and realise that they're usually missing a connection by only a couple of minutes causing a big flow to be disrupted, but usually it's because they're failing the PPM (to 5 or 10 minutes as appropriate), or to protect presentation time to key junctions/stations.

Engineering Allowance (box time) is for TSRs (or weaving around possessions), Pathing allowance is for maintaining correct separation between trains, and adjustment allowance is for changes to the SRT caused by things like approach control or accelerating from a slow turnout.

 

[Bald Rick]

Presumably the reason for this is to mitigate delay repay claims from stations between Bristol and Weston .

I can confirm thst timetables are never designed with delay repay in mind.

Is there any other reason?

Yes. Simply that at busy stations like Bristol TM, it is impossible for every service to connect conveniently with every other service. Some services have to have long connections. Unfortunately , in this case it is the one you use. Many other users of connections at Bristol TM have shorter connections.

Surely they take delay repay into account wihen thinking about connections?

As above, never.

 

[John R]

Apologies if discussed before but I can't find it if so. Just a little rant about connections at Bristol Temple Meads from London Paddington trains onward to Weston Super Mare ( and local Taunton ) trains. Throughout the day the pattern is the same. The incoming trains from Paddington tend to arrive at Bristol just five or so minutes after a local train to Weston or Taunton has left meaning there is usually a wait of about 25 minutes for the next Weston train. Even the through trains from Paddington to Weston tend to sit for 15 minutes or so at Temple Meads.

Presumably the reason for this is to mitigate delay repay claims from stations between Bristol and Weston . Is there any other reason? Pathing for cross country trains perhaps but it seems more than a coincidence the way the times are so frustrating. Are these local stations a delay repay hotspot?!!! Very annoying.

Nailsea reader here.

It's worth noting that a year or so ago the timetable was enhanced to provide many more through services from North Somerset to Paddington, with roughly a two hourly service outside the peaks. And of course in the peaks there are many more through trains, particularly in the morning, as well as the others, so it's really not such a bad service.

And whilst some of the connections are a little annoying, not all are. If you take the 1300 departure from Paddington, you have a 21 minute connection at Temple Meads. That's not unreasonable by the time you have got off, followed lots of passengers down the stairs, and then back up again to the far end of Platform 6 or wherever, especially if you have luggage or are a slightly slower walker for any other reason. Especially if the first train is a few minutes late.

 

[Taunton]

Yes. Simply that at busy stations like Bristol TM, it is impossible for every service to connect conveniently with every other service. Some services have to have long connections. Unfortunately , in this case it is the one you use. Many other users of connections at Bristol TM have shorter connections.

Funny how the Swiss manage it ...

 

[zwk500]

Funny how the Swiss manage it ...

They've generally got more platforms, and longer dwells though.

 

[Mag_seven]

Funny how the Swiss manage it ...

I'm sure even there something has to give somewhere. And its also a much smaller network than the UK!

 

[Parallel]

Nailsea reader here.

And whilst some of the connections are a little annoying, not all are. If you take the 1300 departure from Paddington, you have a 21 minute connection at Temple Meads. That's not unreasonable by the time you have got off, followed lots of passengers down the stairs, and then back up again to the far end of Platform 6 or wherever, especially if you have luggage or are a slightly slower walker for any other reason. Especially if the first train is a few minutes late.

Agreed. A 20 minute connection at Temple Meads is not bad considering the 10 minute interchange time.

Looking at RealTimeTrains, the Weston-super-Mare stopper needs to cross at the junction just beyond Worle a couple of minutes after the Exeter to Cardiff train uses it. And it can’t depart any later or it would delay the CrossCountry Edinburgh to Plymouth services. That’s probably why it departs when it does.

 

[Starmill]

Funny how the Swiss manage it ...

I've suggested that a Swiss model would work well here many times. Unfortunately most people don't particularly like the idea of a doubling of the footprint of Birmingham New Street alas, and I have to admit that they're quite right about the impossibility of getting that one past the voters of Birmingham.

 

[Bald Rick]

Funny how the Swiss manage it ...

They don’t.

 

[mrcheek]

Nailsea reader here.

It's worth noting that a year or so ago the timetable was enhanced to provide many more through services from North Somerset to Paddington, with roughly a two hourly service outside the peaks. And of course in the peaks there are many more through trains, particularly in the morning, as well as the others, so it's really not such a bad service.

And whilst some of the connections are a little annoying, not all are. If you take the 1300 departure from Paddington, you have a 21 minute connection at Temple Meads. That's not unreasonable by the time you have got off, followed lots of passengers down the stairs, and then back up again to the far end of Platform 6 or wherever, especially if you have luggage or are a slightly slower walker for any other reason. Especially if the first train is a few minutes late.

Weston-super-Mare resident here, and I second this.
There are now many more through services, and longer connection tiomes are sometimes an advantage at a crowded, large station such as temple Meads.
That being said, connections northwards and far better than connections southwards!

 

[John R]

Weston-super-Mare resident here, and I second this.
There are now many more through services, and longer connection tiomes are sometimes an advantage at a crowded, large station such as temple Meads.
That being said, connections northwards and far better than connections southwards!

Indeed, I have just connected from the 1020 arrival from Nailsea onto the 1030 to Paddington, and with two big cases it was comfortable but certainly not excessive.

 

[JohnRegular]

If faced with a 10 minute connection at Temple Meads, I would probably suck some air through my teeth and check when the next departure is, or consider an earlier train to Bristol.
Very easy to be delayed a few minutes getting into Temple Meads and then have to amble along with the crowds down the stairs and in the subway - suddenly you're cutting it close.
Some connections are better made at Bath Spa anyway, for example, between trains from Westbury and the aforementioned through trains towards Weston.

 

[John R]

If faced with a 10 minute connection at Temple Meads, I would probably suck some air through my teeth and check when the next departure is, or consider an earlier train to Bristol.

The earlier train to Bristol was our choice as it was the through London service. But it was cancelled. And as for a later train, well that would then make us an hour late into Paddington, so doesn’t fit with our onward plans.

 

[Tester]

I've suggested that a Swiss model would work well here many times. Unfortunately most people don't particularly like the idea of a doubling of the footprint of Birmingham New Street alas, and I have to admit that they're quite right about the impossibility of getting that one past the voters of Birmingham.

For Birmingham New Street I offer you Bern

 

[The exile]

Next arrivals are 12:13 from Oxford, 12:15 from Exeter, 12:18 from Cardiff, 12:19 from Avonmouth, three miss the Portsmouth via Bath train, the latter two miss the Weston super Mare train

It carries on, many connections below 10 minutes or nearer 20-35 minutes, virtually nothing is great

Well, the missed connection off the Oxford is irrelevant as the connection is made at Bath and the Cardiff arrival is the Portsmouth via Bath train (so doesn’t need to “connect”. The Exeter and Avonmouth ones are less ideal, but as has been pointed out, you can’t have everything and both services are reasonably frequent to anyone used to living outside the SouthEast bubble.