absolutelymilk
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Potentially some 170s going spare when ScotRail and Northern get their new fleets
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Cross-country overcrowding: what could be done?
- Thread starter absolutelymilk
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5 years Sir Peter Hendy recommended government to…
Link to Union Connectivity Review
Tetragon213
Member
If you really want to replace the 170s with new stuff, can't see anything wrong with Stadler FLIRTs.
They come in 3 and 4 (pax carrying) coach variants, so replacing 2 and 3 car Turbostars with 3 and 4 car FLIRTs would add an extra coach of capacity to each service.
They come in 3 and 4 (pax carrying) coach variants, so replacing 2 and 3 car Turbostars with 3 and 4 car FLIRTs would add an extra coach of capacity to each service.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
FLIRTs have short vehicles so you would probably want to do 4 and 5. A 3 car FLIRT is equivalent to a 2 car 170.
The Planner
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The word "could" being the important one there.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
And I think Hendy goes with general Government mood, probably to keep his job. He after all now seems to favour the LNER fares model of pricing people off and hiding excess demand under "sold out" rather than increasing capacity substantially.
Trainbike46
Established Member
If they get new stock to replace the existing 170s, whatever they pick should be the maximum length that fits in the platform in Stansted. if that is a 5-car, get a fleet of 5-car FLIRTs I would say.
However, people do often say that FLIRTs have short vehicles, but I'm not entirely convinced by this, as they are pretty close to the standard 20m carriage, which is the shorter standard, but still very much a standard.* A 3-car 755 is 65.0m long. While that is shorter than a 3-car 170 (71m), it is quite a bit longer than a 2-car (47.4m).
*obviously, there are now effectively 4 standard coach lengths in the UK. ~20m, ~23m, ~24m, and ~26m.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
The passenger accommodation in a FLIRT vehicle is 16m (fully articulated) or 18m (half articulated) long. This is basically Pacer/classic DMU length. A modern DMU vehicle is 24m long. This is quite a difference.
2 x 24 = 48, 18 + 16 + 18 = 52, only 4m gain of a 3 car FLIRT over a 2 car 195 or similar
3 x 24 = 72, 18 + 16 + 16 + 18 = 68, the FLIRT is in effect 4m shorter than a 3 car 195 or similar
Yes, the cabs take up a bit of a 195 but it's probably only about a metre on each end, they are (unlike Voyagers) very efficiently laid out.
Minus 1m per vehicle for a 170 of course.
Because of the low floor the gubbins that is usually under a DMU vehicle is above the floor, but this isn't useful length for passenger accommodation.
class ep-09
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Platform length at Stansted may not be an issue since automated SDO is fitted pretty much as a standard now.
As long as the unit fits between buffers and starting signal , one could get much longer trains than platform itself.
Nobody is going to tell government it ‘should’. Too brave and too many hostages to fortune.
‘Could’ has left only Hendy on the hook as he has ended up in a position where he ‘could’ address the very issue he raised, i.e. poor quality rolling stock on Cardiff to Birmingham.
Trainbike46
Established Member
This is the limiting factor at Stansted though.
100m. Can the power pod manage an extra vehicle above those on the four car units operated by TfW/GA? Have they got the fuel range for work on a route that is largely non-electrified?
dk1
Veteran Member
I would imagine a larger pod might be needed if not more than one. Stadler makes trains up to 6-cars or did when the 745/755 fleet was ordered. As drivers we preferred the 4-cars as they had more power (4 engines) rather than the 755/3 (2 engines).
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The only problem you have fuel range wise is that to operate at SP speeds they have to be smaller. This is why they were adapted at the 11th hour for Greater Anglia.
If 2 engines is deemed adequate for a 3 car, then 4 engines in a 5 car would still offer higher power/weight, so ought to be adequate.
Of course, that assumes the 3 car is adequately powered. I imagine drivers will always prefer to have more power given the choice!
dk1
Veteran Member
Yes the problem we had was the difference between the two. Yes schedules are timed for the lowest (3-car) but it’s always good to have that extra oomph. Also losing an engine on a 3-car means severe time loss and removal from traffic which is not the case with the 4-car. On the sparks side however I believe a 755/3 is one of the fastest UK trains pan-up. Certainly felt like that when giving it the beans.
That's certainly kicking the can into the long grass, the 170s are 25 years old now and by the time Northern and ScotRail are in a position to release their fleets the 170s will be 30 years old at least, if Northern and Scotrail put in an order today!
dk1
Veteran Member
The 3-cars have two weights to balance the pod. It was always expected they may become batteries but that all went cold. Unfortunately I have no knowledge of the 756 fleet. There was no cross communication with GA & TfW throughout the testing programme.
Is there any published data on where and when XC are actually regularly significantly overcrowded?
I have used them at various times of day and days of week in the last month on the Taunton-Bristol- Birmingham-Nottingham axis and haven’t actually experienced anything particularly horrendous. Busy, and some short distance standing (typically by choice) but I’ve always found a seat even without reservations. I may have just been extremely lucky, but my own experience includes times of minor disruption and 170s as well as double/single Voyagers.
I have used them at various times of day and days of week in the last month on the Taunton-Bristol- Birmingham-Nottingham axis and haven’t actually experienced anything particularly horrendous. Busy, and some short distance standing (typically by choice) but I’ve always found a seat even without reservations. I may have just been extremely lucky, but my own experience includes times of minor disruption and 170s as well as double/single Voyagers.
From my experience, the Birmingham - Bristol service is the one XC service where I rarely experienced overcrowding, busy yes, but not overcrowded.
Only time I've seen overcrowding on that route is late morning during the school summer holidays heading down south due to holiday traffic.
Tetragon213
Member
I regularly do routes to Sheffield, Leeds, Cardiff, and Manchester for work from my West Mids home.
In 5 years, I can count on 2 hands how many times I've had journeys where I even got a seat.
My most memorable was 3 weeks straight where, on trying to go home from Sheffield on a Friday, I found myself standing on an Off-Peak lunchtime working every single time. It was miserable.
In 5 years, I can count on 2 hands how many times I've had journeys where I even got a seat.
My most memorable was 3 weeks straight where, on trying to go home from Sheffield on a Friday, I found myself standing on an Off-Peak lunchtime working every single time. It was miserable.
duffield
Established Member
XC used to have a "busy trains" web page with a traffic light system. It was fairly crude but gave you a rough idea of which services to avoid. They removed it about a year ago, with no replacement.
Trainbike46
Established Member
A 5-car FLIRT should just about fit then.
Power-wise, as discussed above it should work.
You would need the sp differentials on this route, so would have the limited fuel tank, so some modelling to see if that works for XC diagrams would be good.
Honestly, I think using BEMUs for this route would be worth it - there is electrification at both ends, and a short stretch at Peterborough. The distance Peterborough-new street is ~90 miles, so you'd probably want to have some more electrification, but it doesn't seem unachievable.
I'm not sure there are enough wires for the Birmingham to Stansted to go to BEMUs yet, there's only really Ely to Stansted that's any meaningful distance - the platforms and southbound Stamford line at Peterborough lack wires and then there's only New St station. It'd probably be a fuel issue for the theoretical 5 car 755 too.
Though that would completely change if the Felixstowe to Nuneaton route were electrified.
absolutelymilk
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I saw in another thread that the spare 221s would go to EMR while they sort their 810s out and then go to XC, is this still happening or is it no longer needed as the 810s seem to be performing better in the slightly colder weather? (apologies if there is a dedicated thread for this which I couldn't find on either the Traction or Speculative Discussion forums)
Was on a service from Coventry to Manchester this week. It's been years since I got a train on this route but wow, it's been a while since I've seen that level of overcrowding - and that was with 9 coaches double-formed!
The route/franchise would really benefit from a Transpennine/GWR Class 800 type upgrade with new trains.
The route/franchise would really benefit from a Transpennine/GWR Class 800 type upgrade with new trains.
Were both sets crowded? One of the big issues with forming trains of multiple non-gangwayed units is that you can't balance the load between them. Not an issue with a fixed formation.
Killingworth
Established Member
That might be a subject for another thread. In the London area many trains have loading information usefully displayed in all carriages. As an example you can catch a 12 coach Cambridge-Brighton train with space in front and back coaches and rammed full in between for the section through central London. Regulars will weigh up the standing inconvenience v. a long walk along the platform between the entrance and the available space.
In totally rammed trains you need to know there is space along the train, have the courage to push through to get to it, and hope it's still available when you get there! With CrossCountry when you spot empty carriages they're quite likely to be locked out of use, or removed at Derby!
But I agree, to a point. From an early age I recall walking along corridors at York to find an empty compartment in very long trains heading north. The majority seemed happy to stand in the middle of the train. Human nature!