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Connexions Buses (Harrogate Coach Travel)

Leedsbusman

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Joined
9 May 2021
Messages
699
Location
Layton
I wouldn't call York Pullman a "small operator" when they are part of FirstGroup and currently hold every single school contract with City of York Council.

I have never argued that I am "right" and they are "wrong", but I do have a right to question their decisions especially when the services are funded by my local authority. We live in a democracy after all don't we? The 21 is my local bus service and I do use it from time to time to go to the station if I have a lot of luggage and/or the weather is bad.

I would've appreciated if the operators in question (Connexions and York Pullman) and City Of York Council (as well as North Yorkshire Council in the case of the 412) had conducted a consultation locally on the changes given that the services are taxpayer funded. City of York Council held a consultation on the proposed changes to buses in South Bank effective September 2024, which went ahead, to withdraw the 26 and replace it with the 11 through South Bank during daytimes and extending the 24 to Fulford.
Of course you have a right to question - though I’d argue you aren’t questioning them directly here - but you seem a little reluctant to accept the reasonable explanations people have set out in response.

I don’t think these changes merit a consultation given the small impact on journey times. It’s hardly comparable with South Bank changes.
 
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YorkRailFan

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Joined
6 Sep 2023
Messages
3,430
Location
York
Of course you have a right to question - though I’d argue you aren’t questioning them directly here - but you seem a little reluctant to accept the reasonable explanations people have set out in response.

I don’t think these changes merit a consultation given the small impact on journey times. It’s hardly comparable with South Bank changes.
I have listened to and agreed with the points about the operational constraints regarding both services. In the case of the 21, I have listed them out myself. I understand the problems faced by both operators but I find it to be a disappointing (if necessary) change to the routes. I hope that the busgate trial on Rougier Street next year will prove to be successful, perhaps enough so for the routes to be changed via the Station on journeys into York.
 

Ballyheigue

Member
Joined
11 Sep 2025
Messages
351
Location
Leeds
If I lived in York and needed to get to the hospital for a certain time, or the train station, I wouldn't be using the bus that's for sure, just like I don't for both places in Leeds and If you've got luggage, you defo get a taxi.
 

YorkRailFan

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Joined
6 Sep 2023
Messages
3,430
Location
York
If I lived in York and needed to get to the hospital for a certain time, or the train station, I wouldn't be using the bus that's for sure, just like I don't for both places in Leeds and If you've got luggage, you defo get a taxi.
For ENCTS users the bus is a no-brainer when it's free. For people travelling from outside of York into the city, a taxi will quickly become very expensive. Especially in the case of the hospital, not everyone can afford a return taxi trip, especially if the bus is a viable option. Again, Leeds is a fundamentally different place from York.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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18 Feb 2013
Messages
23,019
Location
Somerset with international travel (e.g. across th
I would've appreciated if the operators in question (Connexions and York Pullman) and City Of York Council (as well as North Yorkshire Council in the case of the 412) had conducted a consultation locally on the changes given that the services are taxpayer funded.
They could have consulted but what would that have done. Most passengers aren't adversely affected (and arguably benefit) so the only ones likely to say anything would be the few that are.
 

SCH117X

Established Member
Joined
27 Nov 2015
Messages
2,001
If they got together and established a common loop it would like the City Loop Nottingham City Transport operate on many services.
 

Ballyheigue

Member
Joined
11 Sep 2025
Messages
351
Location
Leeds
For ENCTS users the bus is a no-brainer when it's free. For people travelling from outside of York into the city, a taxi will quickly become very expensive. Especially in the case of the hospital, not everyone can afford a return taxi trip, especially if the bus is a viable option. Again, Leeds is a fundamentally different place from York.
I'm sure the odd expensive taxi here and there in York won't harm the pocket of anyone, just like it doesn't in Leeds. The fact is why should frequent bus users not wanting those locations have to go through all the traffic jams just for the odd occasional person wanting those locations when they can walk to the nearest bus stop for the hospital, walk to the train station or get a taxi?
 

YorkRailFan

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6 Sep 2023
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3,430
Location
York
I'm sure the odd expensive taxi here and there in York won't harm the pocket of anyone, just like it doesn't in Leeds. The fact is why should frequent bus users not wanting those locations have to go through all the traffic jams just for the odd occasional person wanting those locations when they can walk to the nearest bus stop for the hospital, walk to the train station or get a taxi?
Not everyone is in a position to get a taxi. You might be, the next person might not be. Not everyone is able to walk far, especially those who frequently visit the hospital, so are now faced with a longer journey travelling via the loop.
They could have consulted but what would that have done. Most passengers aren't adversely affected (and arguably benefit) so the only ones likely to say anything would be the few that are.
If you take the 21, the majority of people don't use the loop through Middlethorpe Grove. The bus is often delayed through there due to bad parking and sometimes has to skip the loop because of this. If the bus skipped the loop, most people would be positively affected by faster journey times. Yet the minority who now lose the bus service from outside their house will understandably complain and would participate in a consultation to protest this decision.

Likewise in South Bank, the purpose of the 21 serving South Bank is to connect it with Askham Bar Tesco. South Bank already has a more frequent bus into York with the 11/11A and the infrequency of the 21 leads people to getting one of the many buses from Tadcaster Road to Askham Bar Tesco. Again, you could create significant time savings by cutting it out (like the first journey of the day into York) but a small minority would complain that they no longer have a bus connection to the Superstore.

I've found when using the 21 that the busiest stop is Askham Bar Tesco, at least in York. This is again emphasised by the last bus from York starting out at Tesco.

I'm not advocating for either of these deviations to the route to be cut, but just showing that any revision to the route would see the minority affected understandably protest if a consultation was provided. After all, that's going to be one of the downsides to any consultation. Those who see little to no change see no purpose in participating leading to a minority being heard. Do you stop carrying out consultations? Well not really...
If they got together and established a common loop it would like the City Loop Nottingham City Transport operate on many services.
If there was an agreement that rural services (like the 412 & 21 among others) were to deviate from the station via a loop with the option for people to transfer onto other buses with their ticket at no additional charge, that would inconvenience people less. There's a very good bus service from Blossom Street to the Station (also quite good from Victoria Bar in the case of the 21) and this would allow the station to still be served (in principle) by these services on their way to York. Its the integration that York needs to provide a connected service.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Joined
18 Feb 2013
Messages
23,019
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Somerset with international travel (e.g. across th
Not everyone is in a position to get a taxi. You might be, the next person might not be. Not everyone is able to walk far, especially those who frequently visit the hospital, so are now faced with a longer journey travelling via the loop.

If you take the 21, the majority of people don't use the loop through Middlethorpe Grove. The bus is often delayed through there due to bad parking and sometimes has to skip the loop because of this. If the bus skipped the loop, most people would be positively affected by faster journey times. Yet the minority who now lose the bus service from outside their house will understandably complain and would participate in a consultation to protest this decision.

Likewise in South Bank, the purpose of the 21 serving South Bank is to connect it with Askham Bar Tesco. South Bank already has a more frequent bus into York with the 11/11A and the infrequency of the 21 leads people to getting one of the many buses from Tadcaster Road to Askham Bar Tesco. Again, you could create significant time savings by cutting it out (like the first journey of the day into York) but a small minority would complain that they no longer have a bus connection to the Superstore.

I've found when using the 21 that the busiest stop is Askham Bar Tesco, at least in York. This is again emphasised by the last bus from York starting out at Tesco.

I'm not advocating for either of these deviations to the route to be cut, but just showing that any revision to the route would see the minority affected understandably protest if a consultation was provided. After all, that's going to be one of the downsides to any consultation. Those who see little to no change see no purpose in participating leading to a minority being heard. Do you stop carrying out consultations? Well not really...

If there was an agreement that rural services (like the 412 & 21 among others) were to deviate from the station via a loop with the option for people to transfer onto other buses with their ticket at no additional charge, that would inconvenience people less. There's a very good bus service from Blossom Street to the Station (also quite good from Victoria Bar in the case of the 21) and this would allow the station to still be served (in principle) by these services on their way to York. Its the integration that York needs to provide a connected service.
I wasn't talking about the 21 but the 412 as per your quote

I would've appreciated if the operators in question (Connexions and York Pullman) and City Of York Council (as well as North Yorkshire Council in the case of the 412) had conducted a consultation locally on the changes given that the services are taxpayer funded.

Put bluntly... How many passengers each day are going from the 412 to York Station? The answer is very few. The operator and the councils have got a judgement to take and the "least worst" option is to introduce this loop. The 412 still serves the station - just that for the few people who will be going from bus to train, they'll be slightly inconvenienced but that is outweighed by the greater benefit in improving the reliability of the service for everyone.

Given the paucity of passengers (at all) let alone those adversely affected, I can't see a consultation being required or representative.
 

YorkRailFan

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6 Sep 2023
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3,430
Location
York
Put bluntly... How many passengers each day are going from the 412 to York Station? The answer is very few. The operator and the councils have got a judgement to take and the "least worst" option is to introduce this loop. The 412 still serves the station - just that for the few people who will be going from bus to train, they'll be slightly inconvenienced but that is outweighed by the greater benefit in improving the reliability of the service for everyone.

Given the paucity of passengers (at all) let alone those adversely affected, I can't see a consultation being required or representative.
I appreciate that its the least worst option, which I have said before. As I've said, its not just bus-train connections at the station but bus-bus connections as well. I've said before that this is an understandable but disappointing result. I've also said that I hope that the busgate trial on Rougier Street in 2027 will prove successful in reducing congestion and possibly lead to the 412 being routed back through the station on eastbound trips.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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18 Feb 2013
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Somerset with international travel (e.g. across th
I appreciate that its the least worst option, which I have said before. As I've said, its not just bus-train connections at the station but bus-bus connections as well. I've said before that this is an understandable but disappointing result. I've also said that I hope that the busgate trial on Rougier Street in 2027 will prove successful in reducing congestion and possibly lead to the 412 being routed back through the station on eastbound trips.
I'd been intrigued to understand how many of the passengers are making any sort of onward connection. I doubt it's significant, and that the benefits of this outweigh the negatives.
 

YorkRailFan

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6 Sep 2023
Messages
3,430
Location
York
I'd been intrigued to understand how many of the passengers are making any sort of onward connection. I doubt it's significant, and that the benefits of this outweigh the negatives.
Well there's not really anyway of knowing, apart from analysing ENCTS journeys which only identifies a portion of onward journeys.
 

Swimbar

Member
Joined
31 Jan 2018
Messages
436
Location
Wetherby
The 412 still serves the Railway station.
Passengers can enjoy a longer journey on the bus in comfort whilst it loops through York.
 

YorkRailFan

Established Member
Joined
6 Sep 2023
Messages
3,430
Location
York
The 412 still serves the Railway station.
Passengers can enjoy a longer journey on the bus in comfort whilst it loops through York.
Comfortable might not be the right word!
Anybody been on their 412 York - Wetherby route? What a roller coaster ride in an elderly double decker bus. Not an enjoyable experience! Are they ever going to put some decent buses on this route?

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Scania CN230UD OmniCity LX08 ECW is no longer with Connexions and is now with Border Buses in East Anglia.
 
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