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[CA] Alsthom will deliver 313 rail cars to Via Rail

k-c-p

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A few weeks ago Stadler was chosen to supply new locos for Via Rails LDDR fleet (Long Distance, Regional, Remote services). Now it was announced that Alsthom was chosen to deliver 313 railcars for the LDRR fleet.

The order includes sleeper, baggage, dome and restaurant cars. Delivery should begin in 2031 (https://www.ctvnews.ca/northern-ont...n-new-made-in-canada-via-rail-passenger-cars/).
  • The contract is for nine different types of passenger cars including 78 sleepers, 58 coaches, 38 panorama cars, 29 baggage cars, 26 accessible sleepers, 25 dome cars, 20 dining cars, 20 prestige sleepers and 19 berth cars.
  • A spokesperson for the Prime Minister’s Office said the average age of passenger cars along Via’s long distance and remote routes is 77 years.
  • The first new car should be delivered in 2031.
 
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Gag Halfrunt

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Press release from Alstom:


  • Alstom will manufacture 313 new rail cars for VIA Rail Canada and provide long-term technical support and spare parts services

  • The CAD 4.7 billion (approx. 3 billion euro) agreement will support Canadian rail manufacturing and create and sustain hundreds of skilled jobs across the country

  • Design and engineering activities will be carried out at Alstom’s facility in St-Bruno-de-Montarville, Québec, with carbody manufacturing in La Pocatière, Québec, and final assembly in Thunder Bay, Ontario, in Canada

  • The new fleet will connect eight major routes across Canada, improving comfort, accessibility and connectivity for passengers travelling across the country’s long-distance, regional and remote routes
 
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williamn

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Is there any word on replacing the few Budd railcars that still run?
 

Taunton

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The detailed car type breakdown is here


The plants for production are the old Bombardier ones; the one in Thunder Bay, Ontario, goes back through Bombardier and Hawker Siddeley to Canadian Car & Foundry. I can't recall if some of the oldest ones Via still runs are original CC&F ones.

Shame about the end of the onetime Canadian Pacific Budd-built cars. I was wondering if they were going to reach the 100 years service mark! Incidentally, looking at the artist's impression inside the new cars, it doesn't look THAT different from the impressions Budd did of those 1950 cars.
 

ainsworth74

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Indeed, I did think they were going to last forever! They are certainly well built.
And having travelled on them recently they don't actually feel as ancient as they are to travel on. They're clearly old, don't get me wrong, but you wouldn't think they're from the 1950s. But all good things have to come to an end! Glad I got a run on the the Canadian with it's iconic Budd stainless steel cars, wonder if I can justify another before the end :lol:

Glad to hear that the new build is including proper dome cars. They were absolutely the highlight of the trip for me and it would have been a real shame to lose them even if they were replaced by panorama cars so glad there is provision for dome cars still in the replacement fleet.
 

Bletchleyite

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Glad to hear that the new build is including proper dome cars. They were absolutely the highlight of the trip for me and it would have been a real shame to lose them even if they were replaced by panorama cars so glad there is provision for dome cars still in the replacement fleet.

Certainly, they were amazing when i did it.

It is very surprising, as an aside, that they aren't going double deck given their very large loading gauge. The cars (aside from the dome cars) don't look much bigger than UIC profile.
 

Gag Halfrunt

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Double deck cars would be an obstacle for accessibility. The Transport Canada press release says:

Accessibility will be integrated from the earliest stages of design. The fleet is intended to provide:
  • Accessible spaces in each class of service
  • An accessible travel path connecting cabins, washrooms, dining services and key onboard amenities
VIA Rail will continue working with accessibility experts and persons with lived experience as the design progresses.

This implies that a wheelchair user would have a barrier-free route from the accessible sleeping car to the dining car. This could be achieved by having a single deck accessible sleeping car next to a single deck dining car while other sleeping cars are double deck. However the release also mentions "key onboard amenities", which suggests that a wheelchair user must be able to move down the entire length of the train and reach the dome car or panorama car.
 

Bletchleyite

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This implies that a wheelchair user would have a barrier-free route from the accessible sleeping car to the dining car. This could be achieved by having a single deck accessible sleeping car next to a single deck dining car while other sleeping cars are double deck. However the release also mentions "key onboard amenities", which suggests that a wheelchair user must be able to move down the entire length of the train and reach the dome car or panorama car.

If they're going to achieve that the cars will have to be quite wide (you would need an aisle at least 1m wide, possibly a bit wider), and they don't look it! Some UK commuter stock would achieve that (e.g. 700s I think) but at the expense of very narrow seats which wouldn't be acceptable for this sort of application, same with the length of sleeper beds. UIC gauge sleeping cars have a corridor about half a metre to maybe 70cm wide, certainly not wide enough for this use case.

The other way you could do that, as an aside, would be having a Swiss style arrangement with the upper deck continuously gangwayed and the lower deck not, with lifts used to reach it on boarding (Canada is very low platform so lifts would be needed anyway, even with Euro style low floor stock).
 

swt_passenger

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I don’t suppose in the current political climate a US supplier would have been selected.
 

Taunton

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Glad to hear that the new build is including proper dome cars. They were absolutely the highlight of the trip for me and it would have been a real shame to lose them even if they were replaced by panorama cars so glad there is provision for dome cars still in the replacement fleet.
The key issue with Dome Cars is impact protection for those up in the front, from broken glass as much as physical penetration. It was a longstanding problem from the start, icicles hanging down inside tunnels were a particular challenge, and led to the building of 'icicle cutter' frameworks mounted on F-unit passenger locos in the 1950s, sometimes mistaken for radio aerials. Aerospace technology gives high strength glass, but at a considerable price.
 

AdamWW

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It is very surprising, as an aside, that they aren't going double deck given their very large loading gauge. The cars (aside from the dome cars) don't look much bigger than UIC profile.

Perhaps not so surprising given that Amtrak are giving up on double deck coaches and are planning to replace Superliners with single level coaches (and, sadly, it appears that they won't be taking advantage of this to re-introduce dome cars).

I haven't been following it in detail but I've seen it suggested that accessibility requirements are partly to blame.

I'm pretty sure that the Budd coaches are somewhat wider at least than UIC.

Indeed, I did think they were going to last forever! They are certainly well built.

If I recall correctly, Transport Canada have put a limit on how much longer they can run in passenger service.
 

Taunton

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I don’t suppose in the current political climate a US supplier would have been selected.
Canada has its own domestic political climate, note the order is divided between (French) Quebec and (English) Ontario.
 

ainsworth74

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The key issue with Dome Cars is impact protection for those up in the front, from broken glass as much as physical penetration. It was a longstanding problem from the start, icicles hanging down inside tunnels were a particular challenge, and led to the building of 'icicle cutter' frameworks mounted on F-unit passenger locos in the 1950s, sometimes mistaken for radio aerials. Aerospace technology gives high strength glass, but at a considerable price.
Yes I noticed that the glass in the dome car had (I think) FRA Type 1 glazing which no doubt runs Via a pretty penny especially as the profiles will be non-standard!
 

Taunton

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Yes I noticed that the glass in the dome car had (I think) FRA Type 1 glazing which no doubt runs Via a pretty penny especially as the profiles will be non-standard!
When I read about these issues I did wonder how 1950s BR DMUs managed, large glazed fronts, simpler glass technology of the era, and presumably similar hazards at similar speeds.
 

Bletchleyite

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When I read about these issues I did wonder how 1950s BR DMUs managed, large glazed fronts, simpler glass technology of the era, and presumably similar hazards at similar speeds.

Modern day sub 110mph units have large cab windows too unless gangways preclude it. It's just expensive glass.

Passengers being able to see forward is more about staff privacy (and not seeing anything nasty) than anything else. The Class 777s for instance are built with this feature but by staff/Union demand it is permanently set to be obscured. You can see out of the front of Metrolink trams.
 

Herriot2021

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Several groups, most notably the Via Historical Association lead by Jason Shron of Rapido fame, are looking to take on some of the current Budd cars (both dmu and locomotive hauled) for excursion service and use on preserved lines.
 

signed

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I may use this opportunity to plan my Winter Canadian trip I always wanted for Winter 27 <:D
 

Roast Veg

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As part of this order the Renaissance (ex Nightstar) stock will be fully replaced. A golden opportunity for repatriation perhaps...
 

Gag Halfrunt

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I've read that Canadian winters have not been kind to them, and neither has the sea salt in Halifax, Nova Scotia.
 

Taunton

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I've read that Canadian winters have not been kind to them
The railways of northern Canada and Russia do need a certain different standard of "winterisation", as the Canadians term it. For diesels, they are commonly run continuously, ticking over for maybe weeks, only shut down inside the workshop.

I think we have to wish them well with the Lithium battery power in the new Stadler locomotives, both for battery efficiency and for keeping everyone warm, in these minus 40C etc conditions ...
 

DelW

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Perhaps not so surprising given that Amtrak are giving up on double deck coaches and are planning to replace Superliners with single level coaches (and, sadly, it appears that they won't be taking advantage of this to re-introduce dome cars).

I haven't been following it in detail but I've seen it suggested that accessibility requirements are partly to blame.
Trains magazine's correspondents cited two principal factors: the desire to have a single long distance fleet type capable of operating in the east as well as on transcontinental trains; and as you say, the concerns expressed by potential builders about Amtrak's accessibility requirements, potentially needing powered lifts in every bilevel vehicle.

When I read about these issues I did wonder how 1950s BR DMUs managed, large glazed fronts, simpler glass technology of the era, and presumably similar hazards at similar speeds.
As you may recall, the attitude to risk in the 1950s was very different: railway carriages had manual doors without any locking, many of them were full of cigarette smoke, platforms were devoid of yellow lines or tactile paving. On the roads, cars had no seatbelts or airbags, steering columns were solid bars aimed at the driver's chest, bodies were thin steel without impact protection. Road death numbers were much higher than now, despite many fewer vehicles on the roads then.

In part I think that in the aftermath of WW2, many people had seen death and injury all around them on a scale unprecedented in a civilian population, and were simply inured to it. Industrial accidents in particular were just accepted as an inevitable part of life until H&S legislation in the 1970s and since. But I'm getting a bit away from dome car windscreens now.
 

ac6000cw

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As part of this order the Renaissance (ex Nightstar) stock will be fully replaced. A golden opportunity for repatriation perhaps...
I can't think why - the vehicles have been converted to Canadian technical and interior requirements (e.g. AAR couplers and 480V 60Hz 3-phase ETS, just for starters) and they will be at least 30-35 years old by the time they are replaced in the 2031 - 2035 timeframe (dates from the 'What happens next' section >here<)
 
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Herriot2021

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I've read that Canadian winters have not been kind to them, and neither has the sea salt in Halifax, Nova Scotia.
This is true, the sleepers in particular look pretty rough these days. That said, the withdrawal of the whole fleet at once would provide an opportunity to 'cherry pick' the best vehicles and historically Via has been very generous when it comes to donating spares and specialized tools to the heritage sector.
 

williamn

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I don’t see any DMU’s listed on the order - are they not being replaced?
 

AdamWW

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Several groups, most notably the Via Historical Association lead by Jason Shron of Rapido fame, are looking to take on some of the current Budd cars

He's going to need a bigger basement.

I don’t see any DMU’s listed on the order - are they not being replaced?

From: https://www.trains.com/trn/railroads/heritage-rail/preservation/last-chance-to-ride-vias-budd-rdcs/
As new equipment ... arrives on the Windsor-Quebec City corridor, older coaches and locomotives displaced from corridor service will likely replace the venerable Budd Cars.
 

Gag Halfrunt

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The new Alstom cars will form the Long Distance, Regional and Remote fleet, operating all services except the Corridor. The service featured in that article surely belongs to the "Remote" part.

RDC-equipped train Nos. 185 and 186 are lifelines for people living year-round in Ontario’s Algoma District and are supply lines for remote private camps, cottages, and fishing lodges.

The article was written in 2024, when there probably wasn't any expectation of the entire legacy fleet being replaced at once. The Carney government is using the order to help stimulate the economy and sustain Canadian manufacturing capabilities, which is why they are willing to fund a complete fleet replacement.
 

AdamWW

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The new Alstom cars will form the Long Distance, Regional and Remote fleet, operating all services except the Corridor. The service featured in that article surely belongs to the "Remote" part.



The article was written in 2024, when there probably wasn't any expectation of the entire legacy fleet being replaced at once. The Carney government is using the order to help stimulate the economy and sustain Canadian manufacturing capabilities, which is why they are willing to fund a complete fleet replacement.

Thanks.

I may be mis-remembering or just misinformed, but I thought I had read that the Budds were going to have to be removed from service in a few years and the alternative to a complete replacement would be to shut down services outside the corridor.
 

Gag Halfrunt

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Perhaps some LRC cars will be used to bridge the gap between the RDCs and the LDRR cars, but it looks as if they won't have a future after the LDRR cars enter service.
 

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