Severn Valley Railway to trial commuter services

[MrJeeves]

Ferries and coaches have specific legislation covering cancellations and leaving people stranded.

And so does rail, and heritage operators are not excluded from that legislation. Good luck using it without taking legal action, though.

 

[overthere 2]

Not exactly unusual for an heritage line

In the past "Yes" but I've noticed more and more heritage railways are doing late afternoon/evening/night things.

For all heritage railway's the one and only goal is money to survive so I appreciate that if they feel they can make more money from events than a commuter service than its a shame but that's the way it is.

But if both the event and commuter services make the same amount of money then it would be nice if the management/volunteers said "For the greater good" and stopped doing events and did commuter instead.

And gives you a link to the reverse direction - it's just how their site works I assume

I will admit I only skim read the last two WMR links as I was doing something else at the same time but in the modern world where it is: "Delete the human" and get the customer to do it themselves/go on the website/download the app etc then while the I.T. boffin might think something works because they are used to I.T. and when they show their colleagues they say "Yes" because they are also used to it once it is out in the real world in the hands of the general public it all goes wrong because the public don't have all the tech skills to use/understand it/time to learn.

After you had posted I went back to look again and reading carefully through I noticed the link to return journeys.

The link was in a small box next to a picture of a megaphone. I did see the picture at the time but the back of my mind told me the picture was as a marker for a helpful hint that you get on a lot of websites and NOT the link for the return times.

There is one wrong reference, but before that there is clear info about the journey with the change, just as for the morning

With a lot of newspaper websites you have the headline then an advert, then the first paragraph, then another advert, then another paragraph and so on and so on,

So I don't know about anybody else but I have become pretty good at reading stuff and subconsciously skipping the adverts, so I read the box with the yellow background at the top and then carried on down. Again going and looking again I have now noticed the white background box next to the yellow box which says about the Kidderminster change.

The point I'm trying to make is that while having rail enthusiasts doing a one off and "Drive to Kidderminster then train to Birmingham" people who are used to how the railway works is good, the only way this trial is going to become permanent and for it to spread to other railways is if you can get the: "Drive all the way" or "I hate the railway because......." brigade to use it and considering these days peoples attention span is pretty much zero and they want everything done for them the only way you are going to get them to use it is to make everything simple and easy to understand.

To illustrate I have picked out some comments from a couple of Facebook posts which I have found when I have been searching for news about this service:

Josh Butler
I was under the impression it was 1 continuous trip without beed for changing
A half hour wait in the evening seems extreme



.
Josh Sands
How will it work for passengers travelling from Birmingham to bewdly SVR as the 101 is not mainline certified

Jon Pedley-Glover

Matthew Lee Hancox do we know what route it takes to Birmingham.

• 
  Adrian Payne

Does it go to Birmingham or do you change at Kidderminster?

They're not available yet, with less than a week to go. Type in Bewdley and nothing comes up in the from or to boxes.

I've heard that tickets are not available on the train. Unless WMR sort out the ticketing pdq there won't be any paying passengers on the service!!!

I've tried Northern App, WM Trains, nothing. National Rail shows Bewdley (SVR) but won't sell tickets for 1st September. So what's going on?

I have been keeping an eye on the National Rail (NR) website as I am guessing that is the site most people would use to buy their tickets.

About a week ago "Bewdely SVR" appeared but no timetables, then a few days later the timetables did appear and when you went to buy a ticket it let you but to complete the purchase it sent you to the London north western (LNW) website where you had to type in the detail's again, the problem being the LNW website does not recognise Bewdley so you cant purchase a ticket.

Today it gets worse because I have just been on NR and when I type in Bewdley - Kidderminster/Birmingham Snow Hill or reverse for various different dates all I get is this: "We couldn't find any services for the journey you have requested, please check your selection criteria".

We have had lots of publicity about this though most of it has been through rail enthusiast channel's which is not bad but I was hoping it would be more widely reported for example it has not appeared on the Daily mail, Daily Express or Guardian website's and I'm starting to get a horrible feeling this is turning in to Swanage MK2 that people who do somehow see/hear about this service, go on to the website to buy a ticket and when they find they cant say: "Forget it" and move on.

So in a few months time when the figures have ben crunched and its decided to scrap it it will be blamed on low passenger numbers completely ignoring that if people cant buy tickets simply and easily of course they aren't going to use it .

 

[lineisclear]

And so does rail, and heritage operators are not excluded from that legislation. Good luck using it without taking legal action, though.

Heritage Railways do not subscribe to the national networks delay/repay scheme but they can be required by the Consumer Rights Act 2015 to offer full or partial refunds if the service they provide is not reasonably in keeping with that passengers have been led to expect. The argument that they are offering heritage experinces rather than timetabled transport was always tenuous as many benefit from VAT exemption on fares precisely because they are transport operators. Enforcement does not depend wholly on aggrieved passengers taking legal action. Local Authority trading standards departments may well take a dim view of failure to provide refunds in the event of delay or cancellation. Whilst the Act does not prescribe levels there may be expectations that, in the absence of any express levels in the railway's terms and conditions, the delay/repay levels of operators on the national network may set a suitable precedent.

 

[Kentish RYS]

Whilst the Act does not prescribe levels there may be expectations that, in the absence of any express levels in the railway's terms and conditions, the delay/repay levels of operators on the national network may set a suitable precedent.

I am not expert, but the individual railways own T&Cs will also be a factor surely? I know some have statements that go along the lines of: we operate heritage rolling stock and while we will make every effort to operate with advertised traction, on board facilities and to the published times we reserve the right to change this without notice.

 

[lineisclear]

I am not expert, but the individual railways own T&Cs will also be a factor surely? I know some have statements that go along the lines of: we operate heritage rolling stock and while we will make every effort to operate with advertised traction, on board facilities and to the published times we reserve the right to change this without notice.

Indeed but the question then is whether such terms and conditions are compliant with the operator’s statutory obligations which must always take precedence.

 

[Kentish RYS]

But what is the statutory obligation?

 

[lineisclear]

As per my earlier post the Consumer Rights Act 2015.

 

[Watershed]

As per my earlier post the Consumer Rights Act 2015.

And in particular the obligation to provide the service with reasonable care and skill, and in accordance with information which influences the consumer's purchasing decision.

 

[Belperpete]

Heritage Railways do not subscribe to the national networks delay/repay scheme but they can be required by the Consumer Rights Act 2015 to offer full or partial refunds if the service they provide is not reasonably in keeping with that passengers have been led to expect.

Nor do they subscribe to the NRCoT. So they cannot be expected to provide the support to passengers specified in the NRCoT, e.g. if passengers miss the heritage rail service because the TOC connecting service arrived late.

there may be expectations that, in the absence of any express levels in the railway's terms and conditions, the delay/repay levels of operators on the national network may set a suitable precedent.

Try getting delay repay from Wightlink or Hovertravel, for example, because their service has missed your train connection. That is the more likely precedent.

 

[Adam Williams]

Raileasy are proud to support SVR's commuter trial | TrainSplit

On 1st September, Severn Valley Railway began running a commuter trial between Bewdley and Kidderminster. Raileasy are delighted to now be able to retail tickets for these services.

trainsplit.com

(And, therefore, tix should now be available from the forum's ticketing site)

 

[S101]

Raileasy are proud to support SVR's commuter trial | TrainSplit

On 1st September, Severn Valley Railway began running a commuter trial between Bewdley and Kidderminster. Raileasy are delighted to now be able to retail tickets for these services.

trainsplit.com

(And, therefore, tix should now be available from the forum's ticketing site)

Still not on National Rail to purchase, or even see times. It's a special kind of special, when the railway industry sets out to make it fail!

 

[Adam Williams]

Still not on National Rail to purchase, or even see times. It's a special kind of special, when the railway industry sets out to make it fail!

Indeed, it's completely absent from the Rail Delivery Group timetable. I think National Rail will do same-day enquiries (because of Darwin) but not much more beyond that. It's a shame.

Raileasy's workaround is very much a stop-gap, and my hope is it'll be distributed properly by the industry soon in the data feeds it should've been in from the start.

 

[overthere 2]

Still not on National Rail to purchase, or even see times. It's a special kind of special, when the railway industry sets out to make it fail!

Been keeping an eye on National Rail and it still says: "We couldn't find any services for the journey you have requested. Please check your selection criteria".

Surely West Midlands Railway and West Midlands Rail Executive would be kicking up a fuss about this? as from what I gather they are paying for this trial and potentially loosing a lot of custom.

Indeed, it's completely absent from the Rail Delivery Group timetable. I think National Rail will do same-day enquiries (because of Darwin) but not much more beyond that. It's a shame.

Raileasy's workaround is very much a stop-gap, and my hope is it'll be distributed properly by the industry soon in the data feeds it should've been in from the start.

Bold?


Besides the BBC website and one or two local area websites (Bewdley/Kidderminster/Birmingham) I have yet to see any coverage of this trial anywhere from non rail enthusiast sources.

Maybe the mainstream media are waiting for the steam services so they can do a story about commuters who might work with computers going to work on technology that was around a good few hundred years before computers, if that is the case then whoever puts information on the NR website needs to get a move on, because as I pointed out in post #152 that people who do somehow see/hear about this service will go on to the website to buy a ticket and when they find they cant say: "Forget it" and move on.

 

[MrJeeves]

Bold?

Darwin is the realtime train information system procured by Rail Delivery Group and used for the whole National Rail network, including all journey planners, station screens, etc.

It consumes both the Network Rail timetable information as well as the filtered down timetable which retail sites use and merges them together. As a result, it sees these heritage services from the Network Rail timetable and NRE allows you to plan a journey in the next 24-48h with them, but nothing further.

 

[Adam Williams]

NRE allows you to plan a journey in the next 24-48h with them

"Allows" is a strong word given what happens if you tap on the "1h 21m, 2 changes" link on an itinerary on National Rail Enquiries to try and view what it's proposing.....

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Sep 2026 ==

Surely West Midlands Railway and West Midlands Rail Executive would be kicking up a fuss about this?

To be fair, I've seen no indications that WMT want anything other than this to get sorted out as soon as possible.

It is not really within WMT's gift to solve, however. They're not directly responsible for what's happening to the schedules.

 

[S101]

"Allows" is a strong word given what happens if you tap on the "1h 21m, 2 changes" link on an itinerary on National Rail Enquiries to try and view what it's proposing.....

This is embarrassing. Such a simple thing, and they messed it up. Only a few more weeks before the experiment is deemed unsuccessful. Partly down to NRE.

 

[Belperpete]

Darwin is the realtime train information system procured by Rail Delivery Group and used for the whole National Rail network, including all journey planners, station screens, etc.

It consumes both the Network Rail timetable information as well as the filtered down timetable which retail sites use and merges them together. As a result, it sees these heritage services from the Network Rail timetable and NRE allows you to plan a journey in the next 24-48h with them, but nothing further.

So if it's not NR's fault, and it's not NRE's fault, and it's not RDG's fault, and it's not WMT's fault, whose fault is it?

This does seem to be symptomatic of today's railway, with so many different organisations involved that accountability gets lost. Back in BR days, someone's arse would have been getting a kicking for this kind of fiasco, and it would have got sorted pdq.

 

[MrJeeves]

So if it's not NR's fault, and it's not NRE's fault, and it's not RDG's fault, and it's not WMT's fault, whose fault is it?

It was RDG's fault because they control the process which filters the timetable down, and this is what is removing the heritage services from the timetable given to retailers.

The next test is relying on the timetables for these trains being "republished" to see if they still get filtered out from the retail system timetable after some changes were made, but this is running into some issues somewhere between WMT/Network Rail at the moment.

Back in BR days, someone's arse would have been getting a kicking for this kind of fiasco, and it would have got sorted pdq.

Back in BR days, someone would be closing the lines instead of running a commuter service on them!

 

[Belperpete]

It was RDG's fault because they control the process which filters the timetable down, and this is what is removing the heritage services from the timetable given to retailers.

So who is responsible for RDG? Who are they accountable to?

I thought they were set up to represent the TOCs. Have they now become an authority unto themselves, with the power to stymie a TOC's aspirations?

Back in BR days, someone would be closing the lines instead of running a commuter service on them!

Back in BR days, if one of the regional or sector managers was pushing a particular initiative, they wouldn't stand for this kind of fiasco. The relevant people would have been told in no uncertain terms to get it done.

 

[Adam Williams]

The next test is relying on the timetables for these trains being "republished" to see if they still get filtered out from the retail system timetable after some changes were made, but this is running into some issues somewhere between WMT/Network Rail at the moment.

Which really shouldn't be necessary, RDG's side should be able to re-evaluate services on demand (even after it's processed them once already), but here we are. This is not the only problem with the timetable process.

it's not RDG's fault

I would not say this, for the reasons @MrJeeves outlines. The services exist until RDG process the timetable data and then they disappear.

The staff at RDG who have tried to assist with this have done their best, and I have no criticism of them personally.

It is really an organisational failure to a) maintain the software powering these systems properly and b) ensure that staff have the resources and understanding they need to effectively troubleshoot and fix problems that we have ended up with this not working at all.

So who is responsible for RDG? Who are they accountable to?

The DfT.

I thought they were set up to represent the TOCs. Have they now become an authority unto themselves, with the power to stymie a TOC's aspirations?

Contrary to popular belief on the forum (including from some posters who work at RDG!), as much as they are owned by the train operators, they still are responsible day-to-day for many of the industry systems that retailers and operators have to use, and actively make decisions on the architecture, input and maintenance of information in those systems - as well as the specifications around how to use them.

---

Views in this post are my own.

 

[Belperpete]

Which really shouldn't be necessary, RDG's side should be able to re-evaluate services on demand (even after it's processed them once already), but here we are. This is not the only problem with the timetable process.


I would not say this, for the reasons @MrJeeves outlines. The services exist until RDG process the timetable data and then they disappear.

The staff at RDG who have tried to assist with this have done their best, and I have no criticism of them personally.

It is really an organisational failure to a) maintain the software powering these systems properly and b) ensure that staff have the resources and understanding they need to effectively troubleshoot and fix problems that we have ended up with this not working at all.


The DfT.


Contrary to popular belief on the forum (including from some posters who work at RDG!), as much as they are owned by the train operators, they still are responsible day-to-day for many of the industry systems that retailers and operators have to use, and actively make decisions on the architecture, input and maintenance of information in those systems - as well as the specifications around how to use them.

So the TOCs own and pay for RDG, but have no control over it?!!

I don't understand how it is a software problem. The software as it stands can cope with timetables and through fares for the Isle of Wight ferry and hovercraft links, for example, so why not in this case? I really don't see any significant difference, they are all run by independent operators to and from places off the national network. Perhaps if the SVR were to run a ferry instead of a train?

 

[Adam Williams]

So the TOCs own and pay for RDG, but have no control over it?!!

I wouldn't go quite that far, but remember none of the TOCs have significant in-house technical resource that e.g. work actively on a ticket issuing system.

They'll have an understanding of the systems from a fares management perspective. They're not going to be the ones advocating loudly for validation or architectural/schema improvements that directly relate with actually planning journeys and retailing. They might report bugs with the parts of the system they touch, ask for changes that improve their day to day work of managing the fares, E-Ticketability for their own products etc. But the overall task of keeping the lights on, maintaining technical documentation and coordinating with suppliers is RDG's.

The software as it stands can cope with timetables and through fares for the Isle of Wight ferry and hovercraft links, for example, so why not in this case?

The theory - and to be clear it's only a theory, but I don't think we have a better one - is that other links work because they involve travel to/from at least one "National Rail" station (for example, Ryde Pier Head, Portsmouth Harbour are both considered National Rail stations). Services that do not call at any locations deemed "National Rail" locations appear to be automatically dropped when the timetable is compiled by RDG. "Bewdley SVR" and "Kidderminster SVR" are both (or at least, were both at the time the schedules were created) not considered mainline railway stations.

This is why the detail of exactly how the software works matters, because the impression I got was that there was not a good understanding of where the location types are derived from, the interaction with the location definitions in Network Rail's CIF and how they can be changed, or indeed if this was what was going on at all (i.e. are there diagnostic logs from the timetable processing job to explain what it has done and why?).

All of these things are inherently quite technical and relate directly to how the software systems were designed to work and are working day-to-day.

 

[Belperpete]

I wouldn't go quite that far, but remember none of the TOCs have significant in-house technical resource that e.g. work actively on a ticket issuing system.

They'll have an understanding of the systems from a fares management perspective. They're not going to be the ones advocating loudly for validation or architectural/schema improvements that directly relate with actually planning journeys and retailing. They might report bugs with the parts of the system they touch, ask for changes that improve their day to day work of managing the fares, E-Ticketability for their own products etc. But the overall task of keeping the lights on, maintaining technical documentation and coordinating with suppliers is RDG's.

The theory - and to be clear it's only a theory, but I don't think we have a better one - is that other links work because they involve travel to/from at least one "National Rail" station (for example, Ryde Pier Head, Portsmouth Harbour are both considered National Rail stations). Services that do not call at any locations deemed "National Rail" locations appear to be automatically dropped when the timetable is compiled by RDG. "Bewdley SVR" and "Kidderminster SVR" are both (or at least, were both at the time the schedules were created) not considered mainline railway stations.

So surely the answer is to classify the two SVR stations as "mainline stations" in the same way? If there is a solution that works, the obvious thing to do is copy it.

This is why the detail of exactly how the software works matters, because the impression I got was that there was not a good understanding of where the location types are derived from, the interaction with the location definitions in Network Rail's CIF and how they can be changed, or indeed if this was what was going on at all (i.e. are there diagnostic logs from the timetable processing job to explain what it has done and why?).

All of these things are inherently quite technical and relate directly to how the software systems were designed to work and are working day-to-day.

So, because they don't have the expertise to do the work, the TOCs have outsourced the job to RDG, who also don't have the expertise, and don't even know how their own software works! What a fiasco.

If ever there was an indictment of how bad privatisation could get, this is surely it. The sooner the whole lot is brought back under one roof the better. Meanwhile, initiatives like this SVR trial are being stymied by a fundamentally broken system.

 

[Adam Williams]

So surely the answer is to classify the two SVR stations as "mainline stations" in the same way? If there is a solution that works, the obvious thing to do is copy it.

Well quite - and that's exactly what I suggested they do to fix it, but things are rarely quite that straightforward

The location type dropdown appeared to be completely disabled/greyed-out when I saw the interface myself. Presumably it gets automatically chosen somehow, but I do not know how.

In any case, there has been progress here - I can see services in the RDG timetable extract now, e.g. S23394 on 23rd September.

I think other retailers could start selling these now if they wanted to.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Everyone seems to be blaming someone else for the ineptitude.
National rail Enquiries have come up with a new person to blame; if you try to look at Live Departures > Bewdley SVR it comes up with

Warning
Connection error, please check your connection

in a red box with a red "!".

So it really is everyone else's fault but theirs.

 

[kje7812]

So I've just tried buying a ticket for Bewdley to Stourbridge Junction on 15th September on the West Midlands Railway website. I can actually select the services and have got up to the payment screen. E-tickets aren't an option, with it either being collect from a ticket machine or via the post.

 

[Adam Williams]

They should be E-Ticketable, they are on the forum ticketing site. I suspect Trainline have misconfigured this, given they don't pull from RCS directly.

 

[kje7812]

Further testing, I can get the WMR website to offer me tickets for stations from Bewdley to as far as Jewellery Quarter or Droitwich, but if I try Birmingham or Worcester it fails.

 

[overthere 2]

Darwin is the realtime train information system procured by Rail Delivery Group and used for the whole National Rail network, including all journey planners, station screens, etc.

It consumes both the Network Rail timetable information as well as the filtered down timetable which retail sites use and merges them together. As a result, it sees these heritage services from the Network Rail timetable and NRE allows you to plan a journey in the next 24-48h with them, but nothing further.

Thank you .

Further testing, I can get the WMR website to offer me tickets for stations from Bewdley to as far as Jewellery Quarter or Droitwich, but if I try Birmingham or Worcester it fails.

The Good

When you go on the NR website it now recognises Bewdley and it gives you timetables and the option to buy tickets.


The bad

When you click on buy tickets it still sends you automatically to the London North Western website where you get this message: "No tickets available, please refine your search".

I then tried changing the retailer to a couple of others and while each one seemed to recognise Bewdley and Birmingham they wanted me to sign up/register with them before I presume/hope they would sell me a ticket

Which on the surface may not sound a major problem to the IT bods who set this up. But, what about the people who might be worried they will be spammed by the rail company if they give their E-mail, want to protect their privacy, don't have an E-mail etc etc?


The Ugly

Both Scotrail and Transport for Wales don't recognise Bewdley full stop.

So I've just tried buying a ticket for Bewdley to Stourbridge Junction on 15th September on the West Midlands Railway website. I can actually select the services and have got up to the payment screen. E-tickets aren't an option, with it either being collect from a ticket machine or via the post.

So you cant use the option that the vast majority of people will choose particularly younger passengers

Oh well it looks like I will be picking up my ticket from the machine at Bewdley station

 

[Adam Williams]

I then tried changing the retailer to a couple of others and while each one seemed to recognise Bewdley and Birmingham they wanted me to sign up/register with them before I presume/hope they would sell me a ticket

Raileasy/TrainSplit do not require registration before purchase.

So you cant use the option that the vast majority of people will choose particularly younger passengers

For now: Just .. don't buy the tickets from West Midlands Railway if this is important. Other retailers offer E-Tickets.