gray1404
Established Member
I think before we proceed any further we need to know what time the penalty fare notice was issued.
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Greater Anglia Penalty Fare - Contactless Mistake at Kelvedon".
- Thread starter KayAli
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Hi all, thank you once again. The penalty fare was issued to me at 9.27. That is exactly what it says on the printout and at that point we reached Kelveden station.
The officers came through at the Beaux station and started asking everyone for tickets, so I straight away stated i do not have a paper ticket however tapped in at Leytonstone station and will tap out at my destination. He then said you do not have a ticket so I will have to give you a penalty. I then went on to explain to him I intended to tap out at my destination and spoke to my colleague too who stated you should be able to tap out. He then made a joke saying " does she work for the railway?" He said you will have to buy a ticket now and I will take your details for the fine, whilst he was checking a few passengers tickets. I turned around and said to his colleague if I am.paying for the journey now, why will you give me a penalty, to which he said it is his discretion. I then asked now what? Then he sat down took all my details and printed out the ticket and the fine. I again explained, I intended to tap out and I believe this is unfair as I have paid for my journey too. He stated he does not dispute that and said you have to pay the fine within 14 days. As soon as he said that, I looked up and asked what station is this and he said Kelveden.
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Thank you for this. I got on the 8.45 train from Stratford and I even asked a lady before getting on the platform. I clearly state to her I tapped in at Leytonstone, never been on this train and she said this is the train going from platform 10b and you will be abke to tap out.
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This is not helpful at all. They did not even know where i was travelling to until I mentioned it. I had plenty of time to get off at the contactless zone if they had just mentioned it. I know it was my responsibility but I intended to pay like always.
The officers came through at the Beaux station and started asking everyone for tickets, so I straight away stated i do not have a paper ticket however tapped in at Leytonstone station and will tap out at my destination. He then said you do not have a ticket so I will have to give you a penalty. I then went on to explain to him I intended to tap out at my destination and spoke to my colleague too who stated you should be able to tap out. He then made a joke saying " does she work for the railway?" He said you will have to buy a ticket now and I will take your details for the fine, whilst he was checking a few passengers tickets. I turned around and said to his colleague if I am.paying for the journey now, why will you give me a penalty, to which he said it is his discretion. I then asked now what? Then he sat down took all my details and printed out the ticket and the fine. I again explained, I intended to tap out and I believe this is unfair as I have paid for my journey too. He stated he does not dispute that and said you have to pay the fine within 14 days. As soon as he said that, I looked up and asked what station is this and he said Kelveden.
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9.27, the other officer was right infront of the doors when all this information was being taken. He mentioned the contact less when I stated i intend to tap out at my station, then he said that's not allowed. I will have to give you a fine because you dont have a ticket. Then he asked what station are you travelling to, only then I told him. The other officer was near the doors the full time, whilst all this was going on.
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Thank you for this. I got on the 8.45 train from Stratford and I even asked a lady before getting on the platform. I clearly state to her I tapped in at Leytonstone, never been on this train and she said this is the train going from platform 10b and you will be abke to tap out.
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This is not helpful at all. They did not even know where i was travelling to until I mentioned it. I had plenty of time to get off at the contactless zone if they had just mentioned it. I know it was my responsibility but I intended to pay like always.
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OK. Number 1, follow the earlier advice in the thread to request the CCTV footage. There are two scenarios:
1) The footage shows that you were spoken to before the train arrived at Witham. If this is the case (and you must be truthful) then the inspector has not acted properly. I sincerely hope that the footage will include a time stamp. The times will have to be checked for accuracy, but relativity can be important too. The train left Beaulieu Park at 0915 and arrived at Kelvedon 13 minutes later at 0928. It arrived at Witham at 0923. If the times do not tally on the footage you can still work out where the train was from the overall length. I will suggest some key points to make in drafting your third appeal later today.
2) The footage shows that you were not spoken to until after it was possible to get off the train at Witham. If this is the case then sadly it is game over and you'll need to pay the remainder of the penalty fare (£50 assuming that you are within the 14 day window which will have stopped while you made each appeal).
While the advice of the poster you were responding to is not particularly helpful, your statement above is key as long as it happened before Witham. It would appear that the inspectors might have forgotten that you could be travelling legally as long as you were still in the contactless area. Note that the CCTV won't include audio, but should show when your interaction with the inspectors occurred.
According to the RealTime Trains data, the train called at Beaulieu Park at 9.15. So the inspectors took 12 minutes to get to you to print the Penalty Fare, or did they get to you before getting to Witham at 9.23, but then went off to see to the other passengers before returning to you?
The inspector asked you for your ticket. If I had used contactless, I would have offered him my card rather than say I don't have a paper ticket - your contactless card is your ticket. Which leads me to my earlier question in post #24 which remains unanswered - How did the inspector know where you were travelling to, because according to the next quote, you only told him where you were travelling to after he said it was not allowed. Or did the inspector only first speak to you after you had left Witham, because then he would know you had an invalid ticket, without having to state your destination, in which case I'm not sure you have any grounds for an appeal.
There appear to be a few inconsistencies in your story. This could be because:
1. You may have written your account in a rush and it is a bit 'sloppy' (or maybe English is not your first language), leading to these inconsistencies, which may also have found their way into your earlier appeals, which may explain why they were not upheld; or
2. You may not have been completely open and honest with us.
I don't want to sound harsh, but if you want us to give you the best advice, you must tell us exactly what happened, and close these inconsistencies.
Chiltern 165
Member
@KayAli one more thing I don’t think anyone else has said is do not send them any more correspondence without sending it here first, so we can tell you what you should write.
The advice/help from here is likely the best out there, short of having a solicitor who specialises in railways.
The advice/help from here is likely the best out there, short of having a solicitor who specialises in railways.
Apologies if you do not understand me. I have severe anxiety and this whole process is stressing me out so typing and trying to make it make sense is difficult.
I tapped in at Leytonstone station, central line to Stratford Station. I could not find the platform so I approached an officer who said 10b and I also asked do they do tap ins and outs? To which she replied yes, all stations do.
I boarded the train at 8.45am on the 26/8.
I was sat near a window, eyes open and closed. A few passengers were on my carriage and were discussing Colchester Station. I had my eyes closed until the officers arrived from the back as I was sitting front facing and asked to see tickets.
I said I don't have a ticket to show as I tapped in at the station i started and will tap out at the station ( at this point I do not remember if I said Kelvedon or not) He then said that's not allowed. So, I said what do you mean? He said which station are you travelling to then i said Kelvedon station and my colleague said, I should be able to tap out. He made a comment saying, does she work for the rails and continued checking other passenger's tickets near me. Whilst checking passengers' tickets he said you can pay for your ticket but also will get a fine. I sat there confused and shocked. I then turned around to his colleague and said if i am paying for my ticket then why would I get a fine? He said "its his discretion" and stayed near the doors. So, i said to the other officer what now? He then said you will get a fine and said one minute, continued checking a few tickets then came and sat in front of me and said, you have 2 choices. You can pay £76 now which is the fine and the fare or pay just the fare and I take your details and you can decide what to do next. I also said If I am paying for the journey why are you giving me a fine?
I clearly explained I was intending to tap out. He stated I don't dispute that, but for now you do not have a valid ticket.
This whole interaction happened whilst the train was moving. I did not check the stations that we passed and what station the 2 officers got on at. By the time he took my details and printed my ticket the train arrived at Kelvedon station. I even asked him, i am returning in an hour or so and where do i purchase a ticket? Is it better to do it from you now or online? He said go to the ticket office purchase your return because the ticket office will close before 12. Hope this now makes sense. I am telling the truth
Sorry to hear you're anxious but it's still hard to understand the key question
Where was the train when the inspectors asked to see your ticket, and you said you didn't have one and were going to tap out?
1. *Before* Witham
2. Stopped at Witham
3. *After* Witham
4. You just don't know ?
Where was the train when the inspectors asked to see your ticket, and you said you didn't have one and were going to tap out?
1. *Before* Witham
2. Stopped at Witham
3. *After* Witham
4. You just don't know ?
I fully understand that. Try not to let it stress you too much. I know that's hard.
OK, Kelvedon is the station after Witham, so can you remember if the train stopped anywhere after you had started talking to the inspectors? My recollection from witnessing a penalty fare being filled in on a train is that it takes several minutes, especially if payment is also being processed. Do you remember how many people he checked tickets for after he'd spoken to you and before he came back to fill out the form? Have you asked your travelling companion whether they can remember any details?
Mcr Warrior
Veteran Member
- Joined
- 8 Jan 2009
- Messages
- 17,333
Query... If the journey in question was from Stratford to Kelvedon, why is the single ticket as per post #5 from Kelvedon to Stratford?
That was the return ticket bought from Kelvedon on arrival because the ticket office might have been shut later on.
The OP stated they were only an hour in Kelvedon, the ticket office (as I know staff who work there), is open until 12:30…
Do you mean at / shortly after Beaulieu Park?
I know it seems like we're asking you the same question repeatedly but please try to answer precisely where the train was in its journey when you were asked for your ticket. This makes all or the difference.
If it was indeed at Beaulieu Park your Penalty Fare is definitely not valid. You should have been advised to leave the train at Witham to tap out and continue by another means or with a different ticket.
If you were first asked for your ticket after the train left Witham the Penalty Fare is probably valid.
Thank you. I have 14 days feom Friday just gone
Apologies beforehand but as soon as he asked for tickets, I did not check where we were. I just remember people getting on and off from when the officers came in the carraige upto Kelvedon. It was a good 7 to 10 minutes.
This is what the officer on the train said. So when I got off at Kelvedon I purchased a return straight away. Even the lady at the office stated why did they not just give you a full ticket instead one way
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A time for what? Please don't because you are not helping in any way.
Chiltern 165
Member
He is asking for the time when the penalty was issued. If it was issued before Witham you should have been told to leave the train (and scan out), if it was issued after Witham there is not much you can do.
Though, the time your ticket appears to be issued looks like while your train was standing still at Witham - do you have any recollection of holding at a station?
We already have the RTT data, there are no unusual dwells.
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Do you remember actually presenting your bank card? That is what you have to do when asked for your ticket.
Have you filled out the Subject Access request as indicated upthread?
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Chiltern 165
Member
I am aware as I sent the screenshots
. By unusual dwells do you mean the train was standing for a long time??My apologies, that was a mistype. The RTT data *doesn't* show any unusual dwells.I am aware as I sent the screenshots
In my view it's very unlikely the OP was PF'd at or after Witham. It takes quite a few minutes to issue a PF and getting that done in the four minutes between Witham and Kelvedon is not that likely. It matches the account the OP gives.
So what is key now is:
- did the OP actually, in accordance with the law, offer up their ticket (card) at any point?
- getting access to any video to prove the point. This may arrive later than the PF deadline, in which case just appeal anyway and you can save it for any further recourse from Transport Focus or the Rail Ombudsman.
- getting proof as @MikeWh suggests of any contactless tap in.
Chiltern 165
Member
Has the OP actually paid the additional money that Greater Anglia want from them? Correct me if I am wrong, but it may be better to pay the fine/settlement and appeal it once the camera footage is back.
Why? The 21 day window counts regardless.
OK, brief update to answer some questions. I have spoken to the OP on the phone - I offered if they wanted which they did. They are now a lot less stressed.
Some context. The OP is used to travelling short distances on the Underground. They have never had an onboard ticket check before so they weren't at all sure what to do. They were alone on the train, their colleague was meeting them at Kelvedon. They had lots of questions which the inspector was not making a good job of answering. I've explained why ticketless travel is dealt with by a penalty fare and not just the fare, and they now understand that. I too find it impossible to believe that the whole penalty fare was filled out in the 4 minutes after Witham, especially because it included taking payment for the fare.
They will be asking for the CCTV footage and have registered on the TfL website and will get the details from there. I will be assisting with writing the third appeal by listing the things to include. In my opinion this PF has not been issued correctly and it will get quashed. Whilst I'm not certain, it would appear that the inspector did not have a RID.
Whilst I understand most of the comments on here are genuinely trying to help, where people are not au-fait with the contactless PAYG system it has muddied the water and added to the OPs anxiety.
Some context. The OP is used to travelling short distances on the Underground. They have never had an onboard ticket check before so they weren't at all sure what to do. They were alone on the train, their colleague was meeting them at Kelvedon. They had lots of questions which the inspector was not making a good job of answering. I've explained why ticketless travel is dealt with by a penalty fare and not just the fare, and they now understand that. I too find it impossible to believe that the whole penalty fare was filled out in the 4 minutes after Witham, especially because it included taking payment for the fare.
They will be asking for the CCTV footage and have registered on the TfL website and will get the details from there. I will be assisting with writing the third appeal by listing the things to include. In my opinion this PF has not been issued correctly and it will get quashed. Whilst I'm not certain, it would appear that the inspector did not have a RID.
Whilst I understand most of the comments on here are genuinely trying to help, where people are not au-fait with the contactless PAYG system it has muddied the water and added to the OPs anxiety.
Thanks @MikeWh. I did feel that we were struggling to give the OP the best advice, and you have cut through the fog.
PS - what's an RID?
Revenue Inspection Device. It's a mobile in a yellow case used to read Oyster cards and check validity of contactless cards.
Chiltern 165
Member
The CCTV would show us, but there is practically no way to identify a PAYG passenger without asking first.
That does not make the penalty fare necessarily valid, but it does seem likely that is what happened.
Will bet a tenner the OP is from a different demographic background to me, because this kind of tomfoolery doesn't get tried on with 40yo white blokes who might, just might, tell you to go and do one and stand their ground.
Chiltern 165
Member
Reminds me of that other thread where they were trying to intimidate someone into admitting to short faring . . .