• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

£2 fare cap comes to Scotland:

GusB

Established Member
Joined
9 Jul 2016
Messages
8,181
Location
Elginshire
Because its NOT FAIR and not what was promised: It doesn't matter its the most generous, it doesn't matter if the fare cap was a £100 it's the principle of the point.

FYI half the coach services in Scotland operate as bus services.
What isn't fair, exactly?

You can't complain that it isn't what was promised when the scheme hasn't been fully rolled out yet. It is possible to introduce something gradually and still meet your promises. Besides, nobody promised that it would happen overnight.

From the SNP Manifesto:
Our vision for transport is rooted in affordability, accessibility and sustainability. We have made real progress towards this with free bus travel for under 22s and over 60s. But we want to go further. That’s why by the end of the parliament we will take forward legislation to put in place a £2 bus fare cap across Scotland, building on our pilot in the Highlands, Orkney, and Shetland.
(My emphasis)
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

davp

Member
Joined
5 Jun 2015
Messages
181
Because its NOT FAIR and not what was promised: It doesn't matter its the most generous, it doesn't matter if the fare cap was a £100 it's the principle of the point.
You're right it's not fair. Any scheme phased in is going to be unfair to someone.

It doesn't apply to any services around Livingston so it's not fair to me right now. I get a bus pass in 3.5 years so I might never benefit, but I can see things are moving along and I'm alright with what has been done so far.

Maybe the people of Oban will be up in arms about having to pay £4 to get to Glasgow but somehow I doubt it.
 

styles

Established Member
Joined
7 Dec 2014
Messages
4,961
Location
Gwynedd
I hope you can explain to people why they are having to pay double what other people are paying for on shorter routes, and still claim it's fair.
Right, I think the context is needed in this claim. The difference is between £2 and £4, for a 100 mile journey. I really think you're blowing this out of proportion. Bearing in mind that even at £4 it represents an up to 90% discount in the old fare.
Oban To Inverness is 109 miles Only £2
Oban to Glasgow is 97 miles yet cost double at £4
Boith are still exceptional value for money. Who's going to complain about a 97 mile journey being £4 instead of £2 outwith stubborn policy wonks? The old fare is £16 so people are still making a 75% saving even if the new scheme isn't perfect. Apart from the likes of you and me who take a particular interest in such policies, which passengers are going to complain that their fares are being cut by 75% exactly?
That makes no sense to me. The cost is irrelevant at this point, since now people are being penalised.
Nobody is being penalised. At b est, fares are being reduced by over 95%. At worst, they're staying the same. That's literally the opposite of being penalised.
It will get worse when the If the likes of passengers in Tayport and Newport on Tay are told they have to pay £4 to travel to Dundee, Yes the single fare is under that but they wont and never will benefit from this so called £2 bus fare cap, I very much doubt they will think its fair.
You've made a weird policy assumption here that fares will be raised to the fare cap. That's not how a fare cap works. At worst, fares will remain the same. That's why it's called a cap.
 

Farigiraf

Established Member
Joined
23 Jul 2023
Messages
1,221
Location
Bridge on the River Cam
Right, I think the context is needed in this claim. The difference is between £2 and £4, for a 100 mile journey. I really think you're blowing this out of proportion. Bearing in mind that even at £4 it represents an up to 90% discount in the old fare.
£97.60 for the walk-up single by train on the fastest route (via Carlisle) by the way. Or £32.60 for the long trek via Glasgow. Alternatively, it's 'only' £26.90 if you take the bus to Lockerbie, wait 45 mins, then catch the train from there. The 101A only runs 4 times a day, is about an hour slower, and less comfortable, but I reckon paying roughly 1/7th to 1/25th of the train fare still makes it quite a competitive option.

There are times to raise a fuss over equality and matters of principle, but this is not one of them. Out of all the possible issues with the fare cap or its implementation which you could raise, passengers being overcharged is not one of them. The fact that Transport Scotland seems to be doing their best to kill off their long-distance Highland rail routes without any plan of how to prevent that happening seems like a bigger issue to me.
 

styles

Established Member
Joined
7 Dec 2014
Messages
4,961
Location
Gwynedd
£97.60 for the walk-up single by train on the fastest route (via Carlisle) by the way. Or £32.60 for the long trek via Glasgow. Alternatively, it's 'only' £26.90 if you take the bus to Lockerbie, wait 45 mins, then catch the train from there. The 101A only runs 4 times a day, is about an hour slower, and less comfortable, but I reckon paying roughly 1/7th to 1/25th of the train fare still makes it quite a competitive option.
Yes, quite. I did look at rail fares and chose to ignore them because again they're about 8-10x the cost of the equivalent bus fare under the new regime. It's also worth noting that the bus is about the same duration, if not quicker, so there's no great time saving to be made by taking the train.
There are times to raise a fuss over equality and matters of principle, but this is not one of them. Out of all the possible issues with the fare cap or implementation which you could raise, passengers being overcharged is not one of them. The fact that Transport Scotland seems to be doing their best to kill off their long-distance Highland routes without any plan of how to prevent that happening seems like a bigger issue to me.
Agreed. I actually suspect ScotGov will "fix" the "problem" with the fare boundaries on buses anyway.

But it is really not a priority issue. How many people are taking the Dumfries to Edinburgh 101A bus on the regular, and how many of them will be so compelled to complain that their fare has only reduced to £6 from £13.20 instead of £2? I imagine that outwith the bus enthusiast community, the number would be zero.
 

Farigiraf

Established Member
Joined
23 Jul 2023
Messages
1,221
Location
Bridge on the River Cam
It's also worth noting that the bus is about the same duration, if not quicker, so there's no great time saving to be made by taking the train.
Most (but not all) of the connections at Lockerbie or Carlisle are not great but good enough to bring the rail journey time down to around 2h 15. A 35 min time saving is significant, but you'd have to really be in a rush (or you'd have to miss the 101A by a few mins) for the extra £22-93 to be worth considering
I imagine that outwith the bus enthusiast community, the number would be zero.
A £2 difference is not nothing to people on lower incomes in rural Dumfriesshire, but given that the cost of the bus until now has been much higher I doubt there are any travel patterns being massively disrupted (or prevented from starting) by the bus costing £4 and not £2. Frankly if not for the seemingly arbitrary borders in parts of the Central Belt where there's a fair bit of cross-region travel, I think keeping the £4 for longer journeys would be at least somewhat useful for establishing fare cap prices that aren't wasting quite a lot of money.
 

GusB

Established Member
Joined
9 Jul 2016
Messages
8,181
Location
Elginshire
Agreed. I actually suspect ScotGov will "fix" the "problem" with the fare boundaries on buses anyway.

But it is really not a priority issue. How many people are taking the Dumfries to Edinburgh 101A bus on the regular, and how many of them will be so compelled to complain that their fare has only reduced to £6 from £13.20 instead of £2? I imagine that outwith the bus enthusiast community, the number would be zero.
I wonder if the intention is actually to have the £2 cap apply only within each transport partnership area, with longer cross-boundary journeys costing more. This would certainly solve the issue of being able to make ridiculously long journeys for only £2.

There will be cases where two places are a short distance apart but the journey crosses a boundary and this will have to be taken into account. My view is that it's better to have these matters settled before rolling the programme out to the country as a whole.
 

Buzby

Established Member
Joined
14 Apr 2023
Messages
1,698
Location
Glasgow, Scotland
But no, having two different schemes in the same sodding country makes loads of sense doesn't it.
It’s politics… you can hear the screams from the Holyrood civil servants explaining why it can’t be done. I understand the Strathclyde addition was because it was a timetabled item, and if their didn’t deliver as promised , your argument would be the same. Why not add that the Lothians are being discriminated again to their detriment? The scheme exists, it benefits those that require it, and bearing in mind Govt on any colour is like steering an oil tanker. it’ll settle in like most things do.

Whether a journey is £2 or £4 it’s still a heck of a lot cheaper than without it which seems to be your preference?
 

AilsaBus

Member
Joined
7 May 2023
Messages
112
Location
Scotland
It’s politics… you can hear the screams from the Holyrood civil servants explaining why it can’t be done. I understand the Strathclyde addition was because it was a timetabled item, and if their didn’t deliver as promised , your argument would be the same. Why not add that the Lothians are being discriminated again to their detriment? The scheme exists, it benefits those that require it, and bearing in mind Govt on any colour is like steering an oil tanker. it’ll settle in like most things do.

Whether a journey is £2 or £4 it’s still a heck of a lot cheaper than without it which seems to be your preference?

Where have I said I'd rather be without it?
 

overthewater

Established Member
Joined
16 Apr 2012
Messages
9,149
Actually Glasgow to Oban wont be £4 ( of even Glasgow to Fort William/Skye: )

I have to hold my hands up to THAT mistake aswell, I keep forgetting the A82 goes out into the Stirling council for short period which means that part of the route isn't in the fare cap. So there will probably still be alot higher. However Glasgow to Campbelltown will be £4.

What isn't fair, exactly?

You can't complain that it isn't what was promised when the scheme hasn't been fully rolled out yet. It is possible to introduce something gradually and still meet your promises. Besides, nobody promised that it would happen overnight.

From the SNP Manifesto:

I think most people rightly or wrongly would assume that any extension to a nationwide bus fare cap would be a bolt on ie it would complement or be an extension of the current scheme not be segregated.

From the Same Manifesto on p17 it say this
Having abolished peak rail fares and frozen train ticket prices this year, we will build on the pilot now underway in the Highlands and help people who travel by bus with a £2 nationwide cap of all single bus journeys. This will help people get to work, school and leisure, help reduce fuel bills and help the climate.

Which means they are playing a bit fast and loss with what was being suggested, If more areas are added and they carry on with this policy of keeping it within each Transport Partnership area it will created more segregation, which will differently cause some issues on some cross boundary routes, those people will not benefit from £2 cap. Some of these routes the people are traveling to the closet big town, supermarkets or work etc etc

The following is a list where if current policy is kept ( we don't know if that is the case) would cause issues for shorter length journeys

* Kieth to Huntly
* Buckie to Banff
* Newburgh to Abernethy or Perth.
* Kinross - Glenrothes
* Full length of X56 via Kinross
* Newport on Tay and Tayport to Dundee.
* St Cyrus to Montrose.
* Banknock to Kilsyth.
* Cumbernauld to Forth valley Hospital.
* Harthill to Whitburn.
* Forth to Livingston.
* Wanlockhead to Lanark.
* Abington to Moffet
* Alexandria to Dryman ( Route 309 covers this route)
* Stirling to Alloa via either route
* Stirling to Falkirk Via Denny, Airth or Larbert

To name a few. Why should those people/passengers not benefit? This needs to be ironed out before this scheme move forward really.

But it is really not a priority issue. How many people are taking the Dumfries to Edinburgh 101A bus on the regular, and how many of them will be so compelled to complain that their fare has only reduced to £6 from £13.20 instead of £2? I imagine that outwith the bus enthusiast community, the number would be zero

I think your under estimated the public, I would bet the mortgage money they would still complain. It must be stressed it will all depend on who is the next "Transport area" to be added the scheme, and if that will be merged into the current areas or if will be kept segregated.

That point will detained the direction of this discussion. We could be waiting upto 5 more years before we found out.

Talking of the 101, the good people of Biggar have been very vocal over this bus service, I would be very surprised if they didn't highlight the injustice, if we reached that in pass.
 
Last edited:

HighlandStorm

Member
Joined
27 Sep 2024
Messages
177
Location
Inverness
I have to hold my hands up to THAT mistake aswell, I keep forgetting the A82 goes out into the Stirling council for short period which means that part of the route isn't in the fare cap. So there will probably still be alot higher. However Glasgow to Campbelltown will be £4.
Ember is £4 Glasgow to Fort William. See my post with screen shot vs train price on a previous page.
 

GusB

Established Member
Joined
9 Jul 2016
Messages
8,181
Location
Elginshire
Why should those people/passengers not benefit? This needs to be ironed out before this scheme move forward really.
I agree, as I said in my previous post. Why do you think it hasn't gone nationwide just yet? You'd be the first one bumpin yer gums on here if the scheme was rolled out to the whole of Scotland and there were problems on the first day, yet you're complaining because it hasn't been rolled out everywhere. You can't have it both ways.
 

overthewater

Established Member
Joined
16 Apr 2012
Messages
9,149
Ember is £4 Glasgow to Fort William. See my post with screen shot vs train price on a previous page.

How does that work then? The coaches are going thought Stirling Council area. Does that mean Glasgow to Inverness it also £4 even thought its going via Sestran area?

I agree, as I said in my previous post. Why do you think it hasn't gone nationwide just yet

Because they don't have the money or the budget to allow for it, as said they is very big budget back hole and they need to either raise taxes or cut spending. They made a promise at a election and now the chickens have come home to roost.

The budge issues have been know for months, I think since last year at least.

yet you're complaining because it hasn't been rolled out everywhere. You can't have it both ways.

I'm highlighting the fact its been rolled out by segregation, and do believe they fudged it.
 

HighlandStorm

Member
Joined
27 Sep 2024
Messages
177
Location
Inverness
There is no Ember fare in the Stirling council area of the A82 routes over £4 - Ardlui to Tyndrum is £3.90 - so that might have something to do with it depending how they combine journey segments?

Ardlui to Glencoe ski area goes from £7.05 on Sunday to £3.90 on Monday. Does the boundary actually follow council boundaries or have anomalies like this bit of Stirling council been included so the two zones meet cleanly on the A82?

However, citylink is not showing reduced fares from Monday for Glasgow to Fort William. In fact singles on Monday range from £28.40 to £35. Roughly double Ember’s pre SPT area cap price of £15.50!
 

overthewater

Established Member
Joined
16 Apr 2012
Messages
9,149
The Stirling council area ie part of Sestran area isn't part of the scheme. Strangely Ember from Monday has Tyndrum and Crianlarich to Glasgow for only £2 while Crianlarich and Tyndrum to Oban is £4.

It would be nice if they explain how this works, this is getting a bit confusing, it seem they can make exception to the rules. I wonder if Midland bluebird bus S60 will only be £2 between Tyndrum and Crianlarich like Ember?
 

Spsf3232

Member
Joined
21 Apr 2016
Messages
425
Location
Glasgow
There is no Ember fare in the Stirling council area of the A82 routes over £4 - Ardlui to Tyndrum is £3.90 - so that might have something to do with it depending how they combine journey segments?

Ardlui to Glencoe ski area goes from £7.05 on Sunday to £3.90 on Monday. Does the boundary actually follow council boundaries or have anomalies like this bit of Stirling council been included so the two zones meet cleanly on the A82?

However, citylink is not showing reduced fares from Monday for Glasgow to Fort William. In fact singles on Monday range from £28.40 to £35. Roughly double Ember’s pre SPT area cap price of £15.50!
Citylink are honouring the fare cap just like Ember, it may take a while for the online booking to catch up
 

styles

Established Member
Joined
7 Dec 2014
Messages
4,961
Location
Gwynedd
A £2 difference is not nothing to people on lower incomes in rural Dumfriesshire, but given that the cost of the bus until now has been much higher I doubt there are any travel patterns being massively disrupted (or prevented from starting) by the bus costing £4 and not £2. Frankly if not for the seemingly arbitrary borders in parts of the Central Belt where there's a fair bit of cross-region travel, I think keeping the £4 for longer journeys would be at least somewhat useful for establishing fare cap prices that aren't wasting quite a lot of money.
I'm certainly not intending to downplay the impact of a £2 bus fare reduction, but in the example given the fare has been reduced from £13.20 to £6; I hardly think that's going to result in a significant number of complaints.

I also suspect the number of people making the massive 6 hour return journey end to end on the 101 bus to be pretty slim. If someone was doing this commuting each way they've barely have time to eat, let alone play the xbox. The difference between a £6 fare and a £2 fare is likely the least of their worries. It is also longer than any £2 bus fare in England or Wales.
 

318266

Member
Joined
30 Sep 2017
Messages
898
Location
S&W of Alexander Dennis, N&E of Wrightbus
They've "totally messed up" making a 100 mile journey a whopping £4 instead of £2?

I'm honestly quite taken aback by the criticism being levied at ScotGov over this. The equivalent Glasgow to Fort William fare used to be £18-£40 and now it's £4 and people are still complaining that it's not a further £2 cheaper?

This is the government which offers £1 child fares on trains under Kids For A Quid, abolished peak fares, froze fares before Westminster, and offers free bus travel for under-22s.
I think that criticism being levied about the fact it appears to be rushed through to meet the 100 day deadline isn't unwelcome, but I do think it is overstated. I will say that the disparity between rail fares and bus fares are quite interesting, although it is probably more because rail is faster, more reliable and more comfortable than bus travel so the number switching to bus from rail isn't as high as some people may assume from the fare disparity.
Because its NOT FAIR and not what was promised: It doesn't matter its the most generous, it doesn't matter if the fare cap was a £100 it's the principle of the point.
You refer to the manifesto. The manifesto covers what is intended to be completed over the 5-year Parliament. This policy is still being refined as we speak, this is (as far as I know) a temporary measure as a result of the nature of the scheme that has been set up in the interim by the soon-to-be-obliterated Transport Scotland. It does not mean the scheme is "not what was promised" as the 'promise' you refer to is to be delivered by the end of the Parliament i.e. April 2031.
 

route101

Veteran Member
Joined
16 May 2010
Messages
12,324
Noticed Ember from Glasgow to Edinburgh Airport is now £5.10, will be taking this in a few weeks.
 

318266

Member
Joined
30 Sep 2017
Messages
898
Location
S&W of Alexander Dennis, N&E of Wrightbus
The Stirling council area ie part of Sestran area isn't part of the scheme. Strangely Ember from Monday has Tyndrum and Crianlarich to Glasgow for only £2 while Crianlarich and Tyndrum to Oban is £4.

It would be nice if they explain how this works, this is getting a bit confusing, it seem they can make exception to the rules. I wonder if Midland bluebird bus S60 will only be £2 between Tyndrum and Crianlarich like Ember?
Crianlarich and Tyndrum, unless the definition of Stirling has changed in the past month since I last went there (to get the S60 ironically) are in Stirling Council and therefore under Tactran (not SESTran), which means they fall outside the boundary.

I'm not sure if Ember know, though, as they seem to believe it's under SPT according to the fares on the website (which it very much isn't). I wonder if they are subsidising that fare out of their own pocket.
 

Volvodart

Established Member
Joined
12 Jun 2010
Messages
2,956
Nice! That's a good reduction on their previous £7.55 fare, or the ~£15 Citylink fare.
The Citylink fare is £7.50 today, so you would expect a similar reduction tomorrow.
 
Last edited:

styles

Established Member
Joined
7 Dec 2014
Messages
4,961
Location
Gwynedd
How on earth does the 08;30 service take double the time compared with the 08;20?
The 0820 is an express service ('AIR'). The 0830 service is more of a local calling service going via Livingstone (the 902).
 

overthewater

Established Member
Joined
16 Apr 2012
Messages
9,149
I think that criticism being levied about the fact it appears to be rushed through to meet the 100 day deadline isn't unwelcome, but I do think it is overstated. I will say that the disparity between rail fares and bus fares are quite interesting, although it is probably more because rail is faster, more reliable and more comfortable than bus travel so the number switching to bus from rail isn't as high as some people may assume from the fare disparity.

You refer to the manifesto. The manifesto covers what is intended to be completed over the 5-year Parliament. This policy is still being refined as we speak, this is (as far as I know) a temporary measure as a result of the nature of the scheme that has been set up in the interim by the soon-to-be-obliterated Transport Scotland. It does not mean the scheme is "not what was promised" as the 'promise' you refer to is to be delivered by the end of the Parliament i.e. April 2031.

It's the second time this has been rushed into action, which makes it extremely unhelpful, if they actually explained things and not left things to very last minute they would no misunderstandings. Lets see if they can go for bronze and do it for a 3rd time.

Crianlarich and Tyndrum, unless the definition of Stirling has changed in the past month since I last went there (to get the S60 ironically) are in Stirling Council and therefore under Tactran (not SESTran), which means they fall outside the boundary.

I'm not sure if Ember know, though, as they seem to believe it's under SPT according to the fares on the website (which it very much isn't). I wonder if they are subsidising that fare out of their own pocket.

When Sestran was first created, Stirling council was part of the it operations, way back in 1998. The One Ticket still covers Stirling City along with Falkirk in Zone 3 ( and Yes Shotts is still including in that zone)

I take it when Tactran was created 21 years ago in 2005 they moved Stirling into this Transport Partnership. Its easy mistake to make :D

So when it comes to Crianlarich and Tyndrum, One of the following is true:

* Both Ember and Citylink both think its within the area and it's a mistake.
* Both Ember and Citylink have fudge it since it's small section of road, esp since both zone are next to each but the road network doesn't complement it.
* Transport Scotland decided they should be part of the scheme.
 
Last edited:

Farigiraf

Established Member
Joined
23 Jul 2023
Messages
1,221
Location
Bridge on the River Cam
rail is faster, more reliable and more comfortable than bus travel so the number switching to bus from rail isn't as high as some people may assume from the fare disparity.
The one exception being travel to Fort William: do you fancy 4h on a class 156 or 153 for £30, or 3h 15 on an electric coach for £4-15?
It's also highly competitive on Inverness-Caithness, flows where the competition should be against the automobile not two sustainable modes of transport.

Though given that the WHL trains are already rather busy, and ScotRail don't seem to have a plan to improve that anytime soon, I think at the moment the coach services may actually be providing a bit of capacity relief rather than directly stealing passengers. Long-term it's not a good idea to rely on coaches for long-distance rural travel if there's a perfectly useable rail connection, as can be seen in countries like Spain where ALSA and other coach operators' presence have been used as an excuse to fund rural railways even less (and eventually close them).

At the end of the day it's not really going to make or break the trial overall - the overwhelming majority of Scottish bus travel is inner-urban or commuter routes where a few pounds saved per trip can help out and encourage more usage. The fact that even the lowest income families can get all the way to e.g. Glencoe ski resort for a few quid is indicative of how rushed the implementation feels, but until long-distance Ember and Citylink routes start being regularly fully booked, it's not a net negative overall. Fort William is fairly often rammed with cars for example, so if you can encourage some of those passengers to take the coach, while at the same time the train remains well-used, it's a win-win.

The only major risk is that if like the English fare cap, it becomes too difficult to withdraw or adjust, but at the same time subsidising lower fares on ScotRail is also unfeasible, then this major disparity on fares in the Highlands may remain long-term. But I would be surprised if common sense doesn't prevail here.
 

AilsaBus

Member
Joined
7 May 2023
Messages
112
Location
Scotland
You hinted at the idiocies of its introduction - so that suggests they shouldn’t have bothered Introducing it.

No I didn't, you either can't read or are only reading in a way that fits your narative.

I'm glad they've introduced it but they should have merged the Highlands etc cap with the new one instead of having two different systems.
 

HighlandStorm

Member
Joined
27 Sep 2024
Messages
177
Location
Inverness
I'm glad they've introduced it but they should have merged the Highlands etc cap with the new one instead of having two different systems.
That would have made it harder to assess the effects of the Highland trial. I’m sure I’ve seen that ember has seen a 15% rise in passengers on Highland routes - the question is, is it from rail where available, is it completely new traffic generated which may well have a positive economic multiplier beyond the subsidy cost or is it from motorists taking the bus instead? The first is a concern, but the second two are wins.

Fort Williams intractable summer traffic problems would benefit from more switching - but it’s a chicken and egg situation as long buses are also gridlocked! I wonder if reopening the single track bridge over the River Nevis behind the An Aird sports fields as a bus gate could significantly move the dial on bus journey time reliability?
 

Top