Tyne and Wear Metro - Washington loop extension

[DGP]

I'm getting hung up about the claims that the extension would "serve Washington". No, it just skirts around the eastern edge and probably would serve less than about 5% of the population - and yes OK, that's just my estimate of how many would be in walking distance of a Metro Station or for whom busing then changing to the Metro may be quicker than a direct bus but I don't think I'm far out. It goes nowhere near the Galleries or Concord or indeed most of the housing areas.

 

[Tetchytyke]

It goes nowhere near the Galleries or Concord or indeed most of the housing areas.

Washington North station will be right next to Sulgrave and less than a mile from Concord Bus Station.

Washington South station will be right next to Biddick and Fatfield.

The housing areas are generally nowhere near the Galleries.

 

[deanmachine]

They are also planning building more houses on the opposite side of the line to Sulgrave right next to the North Station. It will also be fairly easy to redirect some of the minibus routes to serve the new stations as well as the big bus routes already doing so.

I do think it would be better to serve the middle of Washington, but that would probably require going under most of it or demolishing half the town to even get there. It's a shame rail was never considered for the new town when it was built. They were too busy building dual carriageways for cars.

 

[Farigiraf]

I'm getting hung up about the claims that the extension would "serve Washington". No, it just skirts around the eastern edge and probably would serve less than about 5% of the population - and yes OK, that's just my estimate of how many would be in walking distance of a Metro Station or for whom busing then changing to the Metro may be quicker than a direct bus but I don't think I'm far out. It goes nowhere near the Galleries or Concord or indeed most of the housing areas.

It's the best that it's likely to get for the forseeable future. At the current rate (i.e. 30-35 years between metro extensions) I'd say that the quickest solution that serves at least a decently large catchment is the current proposal - the fact that it skirts around the edge of the town is exactly what makes it affordable. With decent bus interchange and plenty of bike/car parking it'll be well used.

I agree that a station in the centre of Washington would be fantastic but since it's a typical mid-20th century town designed to make getting around by car be as easy as possible (at the expense of getting around by any other mode), you could argue that there isn't really a centre, as half the 'centre' is just car parking. It's similar to Telford where the 'city centre' is just a large shopping centre, which wouldn't serve a very large catchment as all the actual houses are spread over a large expanse of land as it's all super low density. Due to this city design, without major urban redevelopment (time-consuming) or tunneling (costly), three parkway stations on the edge of town is the only realistic way of giving the town at least some rail connection for the foreseeable future.

If you want to make the most of it then I'd say alongside the numerous multi-storey car parks that would be needed (not exactly sustainable or optimal land use but it's needed because you're not turning Washington into a green paradise anytime soon), there should be a major rethink of bus services in the area to ensure as many people as possible have a bus&metro connection option that offers a competitive end-to-end journey time compared to taking a direct bus or driving into Newcastle then parking. In addition, some cycle lanes would be nice, as actually getting to the station without a car should be made easy enough without running the risk of being accidentally killed on your way there.

 

[Megafuss]

Technically there's no reason not to, but there are monetary reasons. Does the system need double the existing capacity to Sunderland?

I suspect the system will need resignalling,....which Nexus are investigating. Otherwise there will need to be frequency reductions on the current Sunderland line or trains on the Washington line starting/terminating at Pelaw, like the Circle Line at Edgware Road...

 

[Killingworth]

Many potential users will not walk to a station if it's anything like other similar rail networks.

Park and ride will have to feature. Looking at stations on the original core Metro through Jesmond, West Jesmond, Ilford Road and Gosforth that couldn't be provided. The result is gridlocked streets all around with residents parking and/or limited hours meters. Travellers still come from some distance to park. I suspect the same would happen on this part of the line. Putting in park and ride facilities wherever possible will boost ridership considerably and spread the benefits more widely.

 

[MetroTyler]

It's the best that it's likely to get for the forseeable future. At the current rate (i.e. 30-35 years between metro extensions) I'd say that the quickest solution that serves at least a decently large catchment is the current proposal - the fact that it skirts around the edge of the town is exactly what makes it affordable. With decent bus interchange and plenty of bike/car parking it'll be well used.

I agree that a station in the centre of Washington would be fantastic but since it's a typical mid-20th century town designed to make getting around by car be as easy as possible (at the expense of getting around by any other mode), you could argue that there isn't really a centre, as half the 'centre' is just car parking. It's similar to Telford where the 'city centre' is just a large shopping centre, which wouldn't serve a very large catchment as all the actual houses are spread over a large expanse of land as it's all super low density. Due to this city design, without major urban redevelopment (time-consuming) or tunneling (costly), three parkway stations on the edge of town is the only realistic way of giving the town at least some rail connection for the foreseeable future.

If you want to make the most of it then I'd say alongside the numerous multi-storey car parks that would be needed (not exactly sustainable or optimal land use but it's needed because you're not turning Washington into a green paradise anytime soon), there should be a major rethink of bus services in the area to ensure as many people as possible have a bus&metro connection option that offers a competitive end-to-end journey time compared to taking a direct bus or driving into Newcastle then parking. In addition, some cycle lanes would be nice, as actually getting to the station without a car should be made easy enough without running the risk of being accidentally killed on your way there.

It was pretty much the only option that made any kind of financial sense! Other options would've costed billions and still served less in the present and for the future. I would hope that, especially when the Angel Network comes into effect, buses integrate well with it and ultimately this is still a good use for the system which you've stated too. It makes it super compelling.

Washington Galleries would've been a good contender but as many have said a lot, the tunneling and demolition required would come at an astronomical cost that wouldn't be worth it!

I did question Nexus about car parking as its going to be an insanely practical help not just for those in Washington but also those around Washington and even as far as Durham, drivers may find it the best place to connect onto the Metro and its Park and Ride facilities

 

[Exilem]

I know there are about to be a lot of ifs and conditionals in this but here goes.

Washington loop seems like a no brainer to me. It will improve many things and assist with modal shift, capacity etc. the main costs seem to be around undoing the poor decisions of the past eg closing/ diverting level crossings and getting under the A19 since somebody thought the current foot tunnel was a good idea.

One aspect that hasn't really been prominently featured is future possibilities that it could unlock especially if the Leamside is reopened in full. Like connecting the university cities of Durham/Sunderland - the largest city in old County Durham with the oldest city in County Durham.

There are discussions to be had about how to get more other lines through Sunderland serving the south of the city but this one feels like the lowest hanging fruit for now.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Having grown up fairly close to the crossing in Sulgrave this would have been ideal for me 30 years ago but looking at it now it seems to take the easy option North of the wear and the expensive option south of it

 

[Bristol LHS]

Really feels to me that this is doubling down on the original mistake, which was to route the Sunderland terminus to South Hylton, a small peripheral village with no potential for housing or economic growth.

I can’t believe the complexity of what’s proposed for the stretch south of the Wear, with zero benefit in terms of additional stations (not there’d be many users anyway). That suggests to me it’s a sacrificial lamb when this all gets too expensive, and the intention is to end up with Leamside phase one, with an extension from Pelaw to Washington South. I think that has merits - the bus to Heworth has always been busy from Washington, and there’s a huge tract of land between Follingsby and Nissan that could be built out for industry and/or housing.

I understand the politics, but Sunderland would benefit more from an extension from Park Lane/University, up the old mineral line through Silksworth Sports Complex to Doxford Park. Doxford Park is taking a lot of the city’s housing growth and has a business park that’s reaching an age where it needs renewal. Its position at the junction of A19/A690 also enables it to act as a P&R railhead / bus interchange for folks from the coalfields and towards Durham. This was a potential extension first identified in the 70s when the original phases of Doxford Park were being built. The city’s waited a long time. A Seaham extension on National Rail lines would be another cheaper option and would bind that town into Sunderland more - that NR station is doing really well on a pretty limited Northern/Grand Central service.

 

[NorthOxonian]

They are also planning building more houses on the opposite side of the line to Sulgrave right next to the North Station. It will also be fairly easy to redirect some of the minibus routes to serve the new stations as well as the big bus routes already doing so.

I do think it would be better to serve the middle of Washington, but that would probably require going under most of it or demolishing half the town to even get there. It's a shame rail was never considered for the new town when it was built. They were too busy building dual carriageways for cars.

I think this is broadly my view. I travel to Washington reasonably often and the three main places I tend to go are either Concord, the Galleries, or Washington Village. For journeys to specifically those places, this scheme doesn't offer much. But there are residential areas closer to the line, along with as you say potential for development (though the green belt might constrain this a little). Add the various employers/industrial sites and there's probably a reasonable enough case.

It would be nice if it was able to serve more of Washington, but even if it did, I'm not sure the Metro would appreciably beat the X1 for a journey like Gateshead to Washington (it would probably be close... certainly not worth spending likely billions on). So a combination of existing services (which would be needed anyway - the X1 serves places like Houghton/Hetton; the 56 is just as important for travel within Gateshead/Sunderland as it is for longer journeys) and improving links with things like the current 81/82/84/85 Washington local buses is a reasonable compromise to me.

 

[rattyben]

I think this is broadly my view. I travel to Washington reasonably often and the three main places I tend to go are either Concord, the Galleries, or Washington Village. For journeys to specifically those places, this scheme doesn't offer much. But there are residential areas closer to the line, along with as you say potential for development (though the green belt might constrain this a little). Add the various employers/industrial sites and there's probably a reasonable enough case.

It would be nice if it was able to serve more of Washington, but even if it did, I'm not sure the Metro would appreciably beat the X1 for a journey like Gateshead to Washington (it would probably be close... certainly not worth spending likely billions on). So a combination of existing services (which would be needed anyway - the X1 serves places like Houghton/Hetton; the 56 is just as important for travel within Gateshead/Sunderland as it is for longer journeys) and improving links with things like the current 81/82/84/85 Washington local buses is a reasonable compromise to me.

It makes more sense once Nexus/NECA take control of buses and then the system can return to a proper integrated transport solution.

Sunderland station is going to need more capacity or express metro services between Sunderland and Newcastle.

 

[vic-rijrode]

...Sunderland station is going to need more capacity or express metro services between Sunderland and Newcastle.

First raise the track at the southern end of the southbound platform so Metro trains to South Hylton can stop at their correct location! Any news on when Network Rail are going to do this?

Then consider the feasibility & expense of opening up the disused northbound platform.

 

[NorthOxonian]

It makes more sense once Nexus/NECA take control of buses and then the system can return to a proper integrated transport solution.

Though pretty much everyone I know over the age of about 50 hears the words "integrated transport" and shudders. My mum (from Gateshead but went to school in the north of Newcastle) is a good example - she was secondary school age in 1981 and her journey to school went from a direct bus to two changes. Integration is all well and good but it can't just be for integration's sake - it has to improve journeys. Telling someone from (say) Concord that instead of the 56 they have to walk/take a short bus to Washington North metro then change to get into Newcastle/Sunderland may not go down particularly well.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Though pretty much everyone I know over the age of about 50 hears the words "integrated transport" and shudders. My mum (from Gateshead but went to school in the north of Newcastle) is a good example - she was secondary school age in 1981 and her journey to school went from a direct bus to two changes. Integration is all well and good but it can't just be for integration's sake - it has to improve journeys. Telling someone from (say) Concord that instead of the 56 they have to walk/take a short bus to Washington North metro then change to get into Newcastle/Sunderland may not go down particularly well.

I grew up in Sulgrave and had to walk to Concord for a bus, I'd say that this wouldn't be the best way to encourage people to travel by Metro

 

[Killingworth]

I leave others to draw conclusions from the recorded passenger numbers since it's early days with very frequent services through the central core by 1983/4. You'd expect extensions to the Airport, Sunderland and finally South Hylton would have attracted more users. It has gone the other way!!

59.1 million in 1985/6, 31.4 million in 2025/6 - source Wikipedia based on DfT.

 

[rattyben]

I leave others to draw conclusions from the recorded passenger numbers since it's early days with very frequent services through the central core by 1983/4. You'd expect extensions to the Airport, Sunderland and finally South Hylton would have attracted more users. It has gone the other way!!

59.1 million in 1985/6, 31.4 million in 2025/6 - source Wikipedia based on DfT.
View attachment 211296

This to me stands as an argument for integrated transport but it’s also clear that Durham coastline and Northumberland line should be electrified to provide bus, bus feeders, stopper metro services and faster rail. It shouldn’t be either or.

 

[Big M]

I leave others to draw conclusions from the recorded passenger numbers since it's early days with very frequent services through the central core by 1983/4. You'd expect extensions to the Airport, Sunderland and finally South Hylton would have attracted more users. It has gone the other way!!

59.1 million in 1985/6, 31.4 million in 2025/6 - source Wikipedia based on DfT.
View attachment 211296

To be fair, the quality of the service has declined markedly over the years.

Reading the thread, it’s very difficult to extract a conclusive argument that justifies the spending of £1 billion on the proposed extension.

 

[Andymo]

I leave others to draw conclusions from the recorded passenger numbers since it's early days with very frequent services through the central core by 1983/4. You'd expect extensions to the Airport, Sunderland and finally South Hylton would have attracted more users. It has gone the other way!!

59.1 million in 1985/6, 31.4 million in 2025/6 - source Wikipedia based on DfT.
View attachment 211296

I wonder what happened in 1986 to see that fall?!
Metro was always planned as an integrated system with hopper buses and interchange. The buses were deregulated in 1986 and the whole system was destabilised and modus operandi pulled from under it. Other things were happening mass unemployment and closure of industry providing traffic and I still don’t think people outside the region grasp the cataclysmic effect. The repeated attempt at economic mitigation led to out of town car centric business parks.
The issue about interchange mainly involved Gateshead which was too close for passengers to see the sense of a change. The other interchanges worked well( still do including Heworth for Washington) and led to the peak passenger numbers. Ironically recently as a regular traveller, I see two thirds of the bus unload on to Metro at Gateshead, those staying on mainly pensioners who travel for free on the bus but need a gold card for Metro at small additional expense. The bus stations and stops in the city have moved arguably to less popular locations , the south part of the city better served by Metro has more attractions and employment, fares are capped/PAYG encouraging interchange, and traffic and reduced road capacity have slowed the bus journey. Of course car ownership has risen dramatically in the NE over this time and housing density remains low which are challenges. There is great enthusiasm and optimism after the success of the Northumberland Line.
The system still works and will be greatly enhanced with bus franchising getting bums on seats, cars off the road and economic/social benefits. What it needs is catchment in short hop bus distance to stations-that means no go south of the Wear which has disproportionately high cost in the plan, in my viewof course, but Washington will work well. The second thing it needs is park and ride for passenger use from a wide less populated hinterland-this isn’t evident on the plans yet except Follingsby ( arguably the least optimal location) but feedback is forthcoming from many people I know and I extrapolate that to the wider public. Longer term it needs densification and development based around stations not on green belt.

 

[DH1Commuter]

I leave others to draw conclusions from the recorded passenger numbers since it's early days with very frequent services through the central core by 1983/4. You'd expect extensions to the Airport, Sunderland and finally South Hylton would have attracted more users. It has gone the other way!!

59.1 million in 1985/6, 31.4 million in 2025/6 - source Wikipedia based on DfT.
View attachment 211296

This records paying passengers. Anecdotally, barriers even at stations that have them, are largely open and when closed are barely enforced.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Integration is all well and good but it can't just be for integration's sake - it has to improve journeys. Telling someone from (say) Concord that instead of the 56 they have to walk/take a short bus to Washington North metro then change to get into Newcastle/Sunderland may not go down particularly well.

As always, it would depend on how close you live to the Metro and what your ultimate destination in Newcastle is. The 56 has one single inbound bus stop in Newcastle- just to the east of the Market Street/Pilgrim Street junction- and so for many parts of the city centre you're faced with a walk when you get off the bus anyway. It's purely anecdata but I used to see plenty get off buses at Gateshead Interchange and walk down to catch the Metro.

My mum (from Gateshead but went to school in the north of Newcastle) is a good example - she was secondary school age in 1981 and her journey to school went from a direct bus to two changes.

There used to be quite a few direct buses from the Heworth area right through to the Gosforth area before Metro. What is telling for me is that post-1986, when bus companies could run what they wanted, these routes never really came back. Go North East did try the odd cross-city route in the 2000s and 2010s but they've pretty much all gone again because the reliability absolutely tanked, I think the only one left is the 301 which takes the thick end of an hour to go from Gateshead to the Metrocentre via Lobley Hill and Whickham.

 

[swt_passenger]

Sunderland station is going to need more capacity or express metro services between Sunderland and Newcastle.

How do you get the extra tracks required for that?

 

[Andymo]

You are right you don’t! Actually the express service function on the route is provided by Northern with 2tph, and a single stop at Heworth sometimes, taking 17-22 minutes to Central. This service should be enhanced in capacity and quality when Northern eventually get their new stock (and improve the service to Seaham, Hartlepool and Horden).

 

[DGH 1]

You are right you don’t! Actually the express service function on the route is provided by Northern with 2tph, and a single stop at Heworth sometimes, taking 17-22 minutes to Central. This service should be enhanced in capacity and quality when Northern eventually get their new stock (and improve the service to Seaham, Hartlepool and Horden).

I admire your confidence in Northern, using any of its new trains when they eventually get here and improving the service on the Durham coast line are pretty low on their list of to do's in my opinion.