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UK switching to electric vehicles discussion

Bletchleyite

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It's shame Neo never came to the UK with their automated battery replacement system.

I'm really not convinced. Permanently installed batteries allow far more flexibility of positioning as well as size - the same reason why phones no longer have an easily removable battery clipped to the back. With fast charging tech there really is no problem here.

Likewise I remember a company - perhaps BMW - who trialled a wireless charging solution with a plate that you drove over and parked. Obviously it must have had terrible efficiency losses and quite large infrastructure costs in for example, car parks.

Inductive charging is a feasible technology, but is just added cost so most people wouldn't pay more for it, and would be very costly to install outside a home which is where most charging will occur.

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Of course, we all know that virtually everybody who drives now already has a contactless bank card, or could get one if needed. However, as we know from discussions about cashless payment on buses, having a card and forcing people to use it are two separate things. So I can definitely see controversy in the not too distant future if cash payment isn't an option.

I can't. People will just pay by card. The issue of very poor people living week to week in cash only does not apply to EVs (unlike, say, buses, which are used by the poorest in society) and won't for at least 10 years (as it'll take that long for used EVs to be cheap enough for it to apply), and cash is disappearing, and likely will have disappeared near enough completely on that timescale.

The only problem you might get is those of limited means having chunks of money knocked out due to the preauthorisation, but there are ways around this such as allowing people to specify their maximum before tapping. But that must be seen as so little a problem, as it could be done easily on pay at pump pumps and it isn't done there.

Anyone who is really stuck can just get a prepaid debit card and load it with cash at a PayPoint/PayZone store.
 
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styles

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Will there ever be EV charging which works like a traditional petrol station so that people can pay a human inside the shop?
I'd be surprised really.

Even if the classic petrol station shop with food/drink, washer fluid, and bags of firewood remains, I think payment for the 'fuel' of an EV will still be by app.

In fact it seems like plenty of places are ditching attended forecourts already, or offering 24hr pay at pump options. If anything it's going the opposite direction.

That said, ICEs aren't going anywhere any time soon, so by the time the likes of Shell and BP decide to do away with their pumps or even their attendants, I think those advocating for cash so strongly willing be in an absolutely tiny minority.
 

Mawkie

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So why do so many people lease a car rather than buy it outright in this country?
I was thinking about the battery lease costs of those early Renault Zoe (and probably others) that were resisted in the UK and hit the resale value when adverts would declare "Owned battery" and charge a higher premium. I understand why they offered it at the time - people were sceptical of battery technology - but does any manufacturer offer leased batteries now?
 
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Bletchleyite

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So why do so many people lease a car rather than buy it outright in this country?

The vast majority of cars on the road are not leased. A reasonable proportion of new ones are, but then they are sold used.

Quite a lot (including used) are PCP, but that's sort of a lease and sort of not.

I purchase used cars using unsecured personal loans. I have no interest in leasing, largely because I mistreat cars and so don't want to have to find a load of money at handback, often inflated well above the cost of repairing the issue at a local bodyshop or similar if you even bothered or the loss of used value from it. It also provides a level of financial insurance - if I lost my job I could sell the car for a lump sum and continue the loan payments, whereas if I sold a PCPed or HPed car I would have to repay the finance. Obviously the sum depends on the age of the car, though (it'd be about 8 grand if it was today, which would give me a few months to sort out a new job without needing to cash in investments etc if even possible).

There's also a big issue with leasing only part of a car if the supplier goes bust/stops offering the service. If you lease the entire car, either you have to give it back and get another one, or you might be offered to purchase it. If you just lease the battery you could be left with a car without a battery which would be a bit of a problem. Nonetheless apparently it's not unusual for bus companies to lease tyres!
 
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styles

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So why do so many people lease a car rather than buy it outright in this country?
I think this is a bit unrelated to EVs but basically people want the latest thing but can't afford to buy them because they cost a fortune, but they can afford a few hundred a month in lease payments. This is a wider societal thing we're going through, where instead of owning DVDs you pay for Netflix, or instead of going into Car phone Warehouse and buying a phone and then sort your SIM separately, many people get a phone on contract then trade it in for the latest model again before the contract even finishes.

It's potentially more likely with EVs owing to the increased cost of them, and knowing that eventually the battery will need replacing at an expense. Additionally, workplace company car schemes can offer massive discounts on retail lease prices through salary sacrifice. A higher rate taxpayer with a student loan can half the cost of leasing, and include insurance, servicing, parts, a discounted home EV charger, and maybe even some free EV kWh on public chargers. I'm not normally one to lease, but earlier in this thread I ran the numbers and actually the numbers stack up very well and I'd get a brand new car to drive around.
 

Bletchleyite

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instead of going into Car phone Warehouse and buying a phone and then sort your SIM separately

I think this one has gone the other way a bit with Apple etc offering monthly payments for a SIM free phone which gives you the option to hop between networks. Whereas when mobile phones first came out the only option was to have one on contract, pretty much.

But you're right in terms of the point - and it's mostly down, as you say, to cost. The cost of new cars now is outrageous, £30K plus for an average family hatch. That gives you personal loan payments of £800+ a month at current interest rates over three years, and most people can't afford that, and even if they can they can't justify it. Of course you do get more residual value for your next one, but people tend not to think ahead like that.
 

The Ham

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Ten years time things are likely to be quite different:
- there's likely to be around 1 million more social homes built in that time (the vast majority, if not all, with personal car chargers)
- a lot of those currently over 90 (born 1936 or earlier, so entertaining work circa 1950 and retiring circa 2000) are likely to have died (along with quite a few 10 years younger and even a few 20 years younger)
- of those remaining from those age bands the milage that they'll likely be doing will be lower than they currently do with some no longer driving at all (I.e. less need for away from home charging)
- by 2000 a lot of people would have been used to card ownership in one form or another (yes not all)
- a lot of younger people without cars will exist (driving licence take up is lower by cohort and at comparable ages for those below 40 than above 50) meaning that car use may not be such an issue as it currently is (it feels very much that over 50's are more likely to see a car as a freedom and under 40's are more likely to see them as a cost which they are more likely to try to avoid - especially an environmental cost. As always there'll be many exceptions to this)
- apps and contactless cards are fairly universal for those currently in work
- for those who need to pay cash they are less likely to own a car and if they do there's often ways of paying via a card which they can top up by card
- those doing cash in hand jobs may have to declare more of their income to cover their fuel bill (if they can charge at home it'll be cheaper whilst paying tax than diesel without paying tax, and maybs even cheaper than red diesel without paying tax - which of course is illegal)

Whist some may disagree with the way I've phrased some of the above, the point is that even just 10 years from now things will be very different.
 

Noddy

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Will there ever be EV charging which works like a traditional petrol station so that people can pay a human inside the shop?

The economics of this just isn’t there. There are roughly 8500 petrol stations in the UK, which provide 100% of petrol/diesel to run the vast vast majority of ICE vehicles in the UK.

According to Uswitch link below there were 44000 public charging locations (5x more) in the UK in November 2025 (so even more today). But many EVs only visit public chargers occasionally and some will never see a public charger in their life as they are charged 100% of the time at home or in a commercial setting. So even if a charger is located at a petrol station the economics of hooking it up to the cash terminal in the shop and having someone there 24/7 so you can pay just won’t be there.


Petrol stations as we know them today will disappear but they will transition into being community charging areas and/or shops.
 
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Bletchleyite

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Petrol stations as we know them today will disappear but they will transition into being community charging areas and/or shops.

They'll become convenience stores with chargers in the car park, and possibly a small sit in coffee area where they can flog you expensive coffee while you charge. You already get that concept in London where there's a lot of EV use though I forget where exactly I saw it.

However it's very unlikely you will be able to go into the store to pay for the charging. At most there'll be some sort of prepaid charging voucher purchaseable for cash in advance of charging, but I doubt even that as there's just not the demand. The number of car owners who don't have a payment card is tiny.
 

Mawkie

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The whole notion of going anywhere, or even touching anything, to pay for your charge, is on the way out for EV charging. Teslas have never had to do that, they plug in and walk away.

For non-Teslas there are 2 options:

Autocharge and Plug & Charge - both offer a 'plug in and walk away' experience.

Plug & Charge is ISO 15118, and works with lots of CPOs and vehicles already and I think will become the standard.

No idea why it's taking so long to sort this fairly simple payment system out.
 

Bald Rick

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So I can definitely see controversy in the not too distant future if cash payment isn't an option.

No chance. Next year will be a decade since the Tesla 3 launched and brought with it reasonably affordable EVs into the mainstream. If there was going to be controversy about lack of cash payments, we’d have had it in the past, not in the future when cash continues its journey to irrelevance.
 

johncrossley

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No chance. Next year will be a decade since the Tesla 3 launched and brought with it reasonably affordable EVs into the mainstream. If there was going to be controversy about lack of cash payments, we’d have had it in the past, not in the future when cash continues its journey to irrelevance.

I'm not talking about people who can afford a Tesla. I'm talking about the sort of people who currently drive an old car that they can only just afford to run and who currently pay for petrol in cash.
 

trebor79

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Will there ever be EV charging which works like a traditional petrol station so that people can pay a human inside the shop?
What would be the point in that? That's just absolute drudgery "work" for someone and am activity that adds no value.
But it's likely the shop/cafe/bogs will still survive as that provides a useful function.
There might be other types of charging. For example:
  • Attended fast charging, if you can't be bothered with doing it yourself, or if a CCS charging cable is too heavy.
You really ought not to be driving on that case.
It's shame Neo never came to the UK with their automated battery replacement system. That was is a game changer for some, but perhaps doesn't suit the UK market who prefer to 'own' things rather than lease (the battery).
Nah. Stupid idea, "someone" ie car owners has to pay for all those spare batteries lying around doing nothing, and the very expensive swap stations.
Charging was always going to get quicker to the point the idea (expensively) solves a problem that does not exist.
Likewise I remember a company - perhaps BMW - who trialled a wireless charging solution with a plate that you drove over and parked. Obviously it must have had terrible efficiency losses and quite large infrastructure costs in for example, car parks.
Yep. Another stupid idea.
 

Bald Rick

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I'm not talking about people who can afford a Tesla. I'm talking about the sort of people who currently drive an old car that they can only just afford to run and who currently pay for petrol in cash.

My point is that there are ‘old’ Tesla 3s out there, which essentially cost next to nothing to run. Within a couple of years you’ll be able to buy one for about £7-8k. Frankly that’s nothing in car terms; and represents the 20th percentile, which also includes all those going for ‘spares or repair’. For that matter, you can buy a working Nissan Leaf with a long MOT for £2k (not that anyone in their right mind would).

How many people out there pay their home electricity bill in cash? Or petrol for that matter? I can’t remember the last time I saw anyone pay for petrol with cash.
 
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trebor79

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The whole notion of going anywhere, or even touching anything, to pay for your charge, is on the way out for EV charging. Teslas have never had to do that, they plug in and walk away.

For non-Teslas there are 2 options:

Autocharge and Plug & Charge - both offer a 'plug in and walk away' experience.

Plug & Charge is ISO 15118, and works with lots of CPOs and vehicles already and I think will become the standard.

No idea why it's taking so long to sort this fairly simple payment system out.
Ah, turns out it's not actually fairly simple. Outside of the Tesla ecosystem it requires digitally signed certificates and encryption. And that has to link charger to car to owner/person responsible for laying and their account on the car company's or some other platform. Naturally it takes time to work out standards and implement them consistently. And no doubt there are fees to partake in such things.
Tesla being a closed system and first mover invented their own system. My understanding is that the car and charging stall set up an ethernet connection via the charging cables and do some digital handshake to identify the car to the charger. Tesla also hack the CCS standard on other ways (eg shoving 250kW down a 400V lead which is in excess of the maximum current in the CCS standard).
 

Mawkie

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Nah. Stupid idea, "someone" ie car owners has to pay for all those spare batteries lying around doing nothing, and the very expensive swap stations.
Except those batteries can also be utilised to balance the grid. There was a place for them - it was a way for the EV industry to say "we can refuel your car in a shorter time than fossil fuels". It also relieved range charge anxiety for those that don't know better yet.

I'm not talking about people who can afford a Tesla.
Used Teslas are cheap now and covering intergalactic mileages too. See previous RV Symonds YouTube video of his car that's done 250k miles and still going strong.

Ah, turns out it's not actually fairly simple. Outside of the Tesla ecosystem it requires digitally signed certificates and encryption. And that has to link charger to car to owner/person responsible for laying and their account on the car company's or some other platform. Naturally it takes time to work out standards and implement them consistently. And no doubt there are fees to partake in such things.
We've put men on the moon, I'm sure a single 'charge and walk' system will be worked out soon enough.
 

trebor79

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My point is that there are ‘old’ Tesla 3s out there, which essentially cost next to nothing to run. Within a couple of years you’ll be able to buy one for about £7-8k. Frankly that’s nothing in car terms; and represents the 20th percentile, whoch also includes all those going for ‘spares or repair’. For that matter, you can buy a working Nissan Leaf with a long MOT for £2k (not that anyone in their right mind would).
You can get high mileage 3s for that now. Based on my own experience I'd have little qualms buying one, subject to sensible checks.
How many people out there pay their home electricity bill in cash? Or petrol for that matter? I can’t remember the last time I saw anyone pay for petrol with cash.
Indeed. I've always regarded myself as pro cash and cheque. But at some point in the past 10 years my spending has gone from 50% cash to basically nothing*. Only the other day I was idly musing when the last time I paid a bill by cheque was, I think that was getting on for 15 years ago.

It's also not that long ago that McDonald's would take only cash or cheque and there was no ability to pay by card. Now 99.99% of their sales must be by card.

The times they have a-changed.

*Except for taking my kids to a shop, where I think it's good for their confidence and life skills to have to interact (and usually gets a smile from the shopkeeper)

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Except those batteries can also be utilised to balance the grid. There was a place for them - it was a way for the EV industry to say "we can refuel your car in a shorter time than fossil fuels". It also relieved range charge anxiety for those that don't know better yet.
Nope, that's even more stupid. "Soz you'll have to wait an hour or two, we sold all the electric to the grid/didn't charge them to take advantage of pricing and make some more wonga over our service to you."
Swappable batteries is only slightly less insane than hydrogen for transport fuel.
 

The Ham

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Nope, that's even more stupid. "Soz you'll have to wait an hour or two, we sold all the electric to the grid/didn't charge them to take advantage of pricing and make some more wonga over our service to you."
Swappable batteries is only slightly less insane than hydrogen for transport fuel.

Whilst I agree with the point about swappable batteries being similar to hydrogen for land transport fuel, I recon that using some spare batteries for load balancing whilst still being able to swap others to keep cars running could have been made to work.

Whether that's practical and profitable is another matter.
 

GLC

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You really ought not to be driving on that case.
There is a system today called FuelAssist where disabled drivers can request help with refuelling their car ahead of time (and I think even pay via an app). I don’t think it’s unreasonable to have places where assistance is offered for EV chargers, especially with some of the higher power, oil cooled cables that are pretty heavy and inflexible
 

Bald Rick

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Except those batteries can also be utilised to balance the grid.

Not really. To balance the grid you need multi-megawatt scale, and located in the right placem ideally close to a large generator or consumer.

‘Spare’ batteries have use in smaller settings, to provide peak output locally, and for arbitrage.

Even then, the country has more batteries coming into the Grid and DNO system than it needs, and that’s before the domestic battery revolution takes off.
 

Mawkie

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Not really. To balance the grid you need multi-megawatt scale, and located in the right placem ideally close to a large generator or consumer.

‘Spare’ batteries have use in smaller settings, to provide peak output locally, and for arbitrage.
I shouldn't make the mistake of believing press releases.


Supporting the Energy Transition in Europe

Kajsa Ivansson Sognefur, Head of NIO Power Europe, emphasized how the Power Swap technology is now expanding beyond mobility: “Our Power Swap Stations do more than recharge EVs. They act as decentralized energy storage, helping stabilize the grid by compensating for fluctuations in renewable energy supply.”

As Europe’s EV adoption grows—especially among drivers who lack home charging facilities—NIO’s swap stations offer a scalable solution to the continent’s energy challenges.

Energy Storage and Grid Stability: Projects in Denmark, the Netherlands, Sweden and Germany

NIO is launching groundbreaking initiatives in Denmark, the Netherlands, Sweden, and Germany to support grid stability through various grid services and energy trading strategies. In Denmark and the Netherlands, the focus is on using Power Swap Stations as grid-stabilizing assets to help power grid stability. While in Germany, the stations are primarily involved in wholesale electricity trading to reduce costs. These efforts help maintain frequency control and grid stabilization across the markets.

By offering decentralized energy storage and balancing renewable energy fluctuations, NIO Power Swap Stations contribute to a sustainable power supply—helping reduce electricity costs and grid bottlenecks.
 

rangersac

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For that matter, you can buy a working Nissan Leaf with a long MOT for £2k (not that anyone in their right mind would).

The only thing fundamentally wrong with the Leaf was the lack of thermal battery management, and that's only an issue if you repeatedly fast charge them. For a two car household a second hand Leaf is a perfect bangernomics purchase that will do 95% of the daily runaround chores significantly cheaper that an equivalent ICE car. There's also a viable battery swap ecosystem out there to extend their lives
 

johncrossley

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According to the Ember thread, electric buses are still considerably more expensive than diesel buses. Why is that, given that new electric cars are now not much different in price to petrol ones?
 

Mawkie

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  1. Huge batteries are expensive to manufacture.
  2. Increased weight requires increased structural engineering and composite materials to offset that weight, as well as large specialised control and cooling systems.
  3. Relatively low production volumes and operators requiring 'personalised' products.
  4. Manufacturers know that buyers look at overall lifetime running costs and given the reduced running costs, price that into their ticket price.
 

johncrossley

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On the other hand, a greater proportion of new buses are electric compared to cars. In some areas, for example London and the Netherlands, nearly all new buses have been electric for some time.
 

jon0844

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I do think economies of scale plays a part, but also I expect the lack of choice is also a reason electric buses and coaches are still expensive.

Then there's the need for depots to have the infrastructure installed (locally, Uno buses have loads of buses still to be brought to site because a late change in charger requirements means they're still waiting to have the means to charge the new fleet - so they're running a handful of buses despite the buses all made and registered).

I also expect in the industry there are still lots of people in the chain that are not keen on EVs and actively seek to put people off, as well as protecting the sale of 'tried and tested' buses that are likely cheap to make now. Ongoing maintenance is presumably quite profitable, and electric vehicles usually need less of that.

I am not sure if it's a thing here in the UK, but many US car dealers have been found to actively lie to customers to put them off going electric so they can still sell ICE cars and ensure a decent income from repairs and maintenance.

All I know is that the few electric buses I've been on, they're quiet, smooth, and the powerful air conditioning was a godsend in the recent heatwaves. Drivers also love driving them, plus if they're not burning up there's less chance of an accident through fatigue.

I was surprised and a little disappointed when Arriva announced new buses and I found they weren't full electric.

On another note, I saw the Electric Viking (YouTuber) talking of CATL now selling batteries to end users for around US$65 per kWh. So imagine a 50kWh battery pack costing US$3250 (excluding casing, and presumably also requiring the cooling and BMS etc - although I don't know if the BMS would be included) and how much discount a car maker could be getting?

Imagine batteries for the home where suddenly you could have 30, 40 or 50kWh battery packs costing about half what a 10-15kWh battery costs today? These are the prices as of now too, and other makers are going to have to lower their costs. Will see instant price cuts? Maybe not (Fogstar is pretty cheap already though), and shipping fees may up the price for UK customers, but prices will fall and quite rapidly as more and more people are buying.

Plus, these are LFP batteries but sodium ion batteries should be even cheaper. While not likely to be used in cars, they'll be great for homes, RVs and caravans. Power stations, the type you might buy to go with plug-in solar when the next lot of regulations are sorted, should become way cheaper.

So, battery costs are now at a point where I can see electric vehicles getting even cheaper in the coming years. The already cheap Renault 5 now gets a smaller LFP battery option from later this year, and I expect these new batteries will appear in the all-new Dacia Spring and other Renault cars.

The Chinese will certainly be taking full advantage of the price cuts.

Also today I see Be.Ev is offering a new type of subscription, where you pay a fixed monthly fee and prepay for a set amount of energy to charge.. One plan being around £50 and offering 120kWh of charging that you just consume as and when. I don't know if they'll let you carry over unused power, as it's early days, but it brings the effective rate down to around 39-40p per kWh. Now if you can't charge from home, there are increasingly better options to charge nearby at a fast charger and pay rates comparable to your standard home tariff.
 

johncrossley

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The improvement in passenger experience is more substantial with electric conversion of buses compared to cars.
 

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