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[Haywain]

Sorry, "fulfilled" in the context I'm using it means from the retailer's perspective, so:

• Written into LSM successfully, ready for collection for Ticket on Departure, or:
• E-Tickets (PDFs, Apple Wallet, Google Wallet) & barcodes generated and sent successfully

Tickets could subsequently be refunded in both cases, but the retailer's job has been done by this point, so it's reasonable to collect the payment.

You are right that ToD is deferred fulfilment from a rail industry perspective, and tickets aren't issued until collection. But even if we wanted to, we couldn't delay taking the payment for that long (also, the industry doesn't want us to refund uncollected ones...)

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[yorkie]

So they can take the money immediately, but wait a week to give it back? Effectively they have had a free loan of my monies for a week?

If it is going to take a week, then the refunds likely won't arrive before my next credit card bill is calculated. So I will have to cough up for these payments, and only see the refunds a month later on my next bill. Should I demand interest?

Well, I'd certainly put in a complaint to Avanti, and ask if they will consider some compensation. It's not really about interest, but overall it's an awful customer experience and it's totally unacceptable to cancel bookings in this manner.

Please do let us know how you get on. (I've also given Avanti a nudge to do something to help you; whether it'll make a difference or not, I don't know...)

It really does amaze me though, the extent to which people will use sites such as Avanti's (and Uber), with awful user interfaces, huge back-end bugs, poor customer support (typically outsourced offshore); I understand the goal is to get perks (in the case of Avanti) or cashback (in the case of Uber) but this only works if people value their time at a very low rate per hour!

As far as I'm concerned, I'd far rather use Trainsplit (which powers the forum's ticketing site and has UK based support staff - many of whom are on this forum) than go through all sorts of hoops and awful customer service to get some perks, and I would strongly encourage others to consider boycotting anti-customer companies such as Avanti, too.

 

[Mainline421]

cashback (in the case of Uber) but this only works if people value their time at a very low rate per hour!

I think you massively underestimate the savings from Uber. And sure it's not fast as direct from S&B or Northern TVM but probably much quicker than any Trainsplit variant and has no fees. I've only had to contact customer service once, just to chase missing cashback and that took less than a minute to write the email

 

[styles]

I think you massively underestimate the savings from Uber. And sure it's not fast as direct from S&B or Northern TVM but probably much quicker than any Trainsplit variant and has no fees. I've only had to contact customer service once, just to chase missing cashback and that took less than a minute to write the email

Indeed, there's a few sites like TfW where you can get 10% cashback, and for those regularly using Avanti, you can only book direct if you want to take advantage of Club Avanti.

Maybe GBR will simplify some of these benefits variations but I wouldn't hold out much hope

 

[Amaranthe]

Different situation altogether than the OP but I bought a ticket on the Avanti website on Wednesday using my credit card and although the actual payment has processed the authorisation is still pending as well so my available balance is currently reduced by £47 instead of the correct £23.50.

Thankfully no such issue with my £92.70 and £42.70 transactions with Trainsplit on the same day.

 

[styles]

Different situation altogether than the OP but I bought a ticket on the Avanti website on Wednesday using my credit card and although the actual payment has processed the authorisation is still pending as well so my available balance is currently reduced by £47 instead of the correct £23.50.

Thankfully no such issue with my £92.70 and £42.70 transactions with Trainsplit on the same day.

I had this same issue about a year ago. I contacted Avanti to check the refund was on its way and it did arrive a couple of days later.

But this is clearly a longstanding issue they're having. I can't remember I had this problem with any other merchant (rail or otherwise) apart from my work VPN blocks card payment screens which makes it a little difficult when you're trying to use a company credit card for a work purchase!

 

[redreni]

I think you massively underestimate the savings from Uber. And sure it's not fast as direct from S&B or Northern TVM but probably much quicker than any Trainsplit variant and has no fees. I've only had to contact customer service once, just to chase missing cashback and that took less than a minute to write the email

Omio/Uber Trains customer services is actually very good in my experience. The app is not to my liking but if the journey is simple enough and you know what the fare should be, it's not much hardship for 10% off. If it makes @yorkie feel any better I use Uber mainly for very cheap DOS singles between Dartford and various U zones which have to be issued as ToD and on which the retailer almost certainly loses money.

 

[Belperpete]

Well, I'd certainly put in a complaint to Avanti, and ask if they will consider some compensation. It's not really about interest, but overall it's an awful customer experience and it's totally unacceptable to cancel bookings in this manner.

Please do let us know how you get on. (I've also given Avanti a nudge to do something to help you; whether it'll make a difference or not, I don't know...)

I have complained to Avanti Customer Services. They have responded asking for copies of the emails that they (Avanti) sent me! As I had already given them the booking references, I would have thought they would have been able to find them themselves, but I suppose it is easier to get the customer to do the lifting (and probably hope that the customer gives up).

And they have told me to contact Club Avanti direct regarding the points. You would have thought they could have forwarded the issue, but again it is easier to get the customer to do the work.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Sunday at 04:00 ==

Credit card refunds take about a week to process. They said they would process it immediately which is the best they can do.

Re-reading it, that is NOT what they said. As I posted, they said ""We will process a refund immediately to your payment card...". I read that as saying that I will be getting a refund immediately to my card. If they are using a system where the refund doesn't come through immediately, then they shouldn't be saying it will be immediately - they should be giving a warning that it may take some time.

If I make an electronic payment from my bank to my credit card, I get a text from my credit card provider within the hour, and it usually appears on my account that same day. And that involves a bank-to-bank transfer. Is there a reason why something classified as a "refund" takes considerably longer than a "payment"?

 

[MrJeeves]

Re-reading it, that is NOT what they said. As I posted, they said ""We will process a refund immediately to your payment card...". I read that as saying that I will be getting a refund immediately to my card. If they are using a system where the refund doesn't come through immediately, then they shouldn't be saying it will be immediately - they should be giving a warning that it may take some time.

They likely did process it immediately, but your bank or card provider does not, to be pedantic.

 

[Edvid]

If I make an electronic payment from my bank to my credit card, I get a text from my credit card provider within the hour, and it usually appears on my account that same day. And that involves a bank-to-bank transfer.

You are probably describing a Faster Payments transaction, for which the process differs from that for payments made by debit/credit card.

Is there a reason why something classified as a "refund" takes considerably longer than a "payment"?

You may find an explanation somewhere in this Reddit thread, or this one.

 

[plugwash]

I was going to say I can't imagine what may have prompted a TOC to do that, but thinking about it, maybe I can.

To me the obvious reason for doing what they did would be they came to believe the original transaction had a high risk of being fraudulent.

 

[styles]

If I make an electronic payment from my bank to my credit card, I get a text from my credit card provider within the hour, and it usually appears on my account that same day. And that involves a bank-to-bank transfer.

That's an open banking account to account payment; it's not the same as a payment made by card.

I won't go into detail as it's not that relevant to the original question but you can read about it here: https://www.openbanking.org.uk/pay-by-bank/. In essence though, it's a much more modern technology than those which UK and European card payments use, which is really old, full of bugs which processors need to work around, and largely controlled by the large card schemes like VISA and MasterCard, who dominate the payments space.

There are lots of other types of payment methods such as BACS, CHAPS, Faster Payments, etc. Some of these are how your salary is paid, and your bank knows in advance it'll be receiving the money. Others are the types of payments you'll use when you send money to someone from your mobile banking app, which are typically near-instant. They all have different guarantees, protections, authorisation mechanisms, return obligations, dispute resolution, etc.

Is there a reason why something classified as a "refund" takes considerably longer than a "payment"?

See post #17: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...hat-deliver-your-tickets.306299/#post-7919891

The money leaving your account and being returned to your account actually takes the same amount of time, it's just that when the money is taken, your 'available balance' is reduced; technically speaking the money still sits in your 'actual balance', but your card issuer prevents you spending it so you don't go overdrawn or over your credit limit. I'm not justifying the system, but it is what it is.

 

[Belperpete]

See post #17: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...hat-deliver-your-tickets.306299/#post-7919891

The money leaving your account and being returned to your account actually takes the same amount of time, it's just that when the money is taken, your 'available balance' is reduced; technically speaking the money still sits in your 'actual balance', but your card issuer prevents you spending it so you don't go overdrawn or over your credit limit. I'm not justifying the system, but it is what it is.

So if immediate refunds are impossible, how can Booking.com do them?

I had a similar issue with an accomodation booking I made on Sunday. I made the booking, and received a text from my credit card issuer that payment had been made. Unfortunately the accomodation provider didn't accept the booking, so booking.com had to issue a refund, which they did within the hour, and I received another text from my credit card provider. Meanwhile I am still waiting for any sign of a refund from Avanti.

In both cases, the companies involved knew fairly quickly that they would have to issue a refund. The Booking.com refund came through within an hour, while the Avanti ones still haven't come through over a week later. Same credit card provider, so the difference can only be down to the companies concerned.

 

[styles]

So if immediate refunds are impossible, how can Booking.com do them?

I had a similar issue with an accomodation booking I made on Sunday. I made the booking, and received a text from my credit card issuer that payment had been made. Unfortunately the accomodation provider didn't accept the booking, so booking.com had to issue a refund, which they did within the hour, and I received another text from my credit card provider. Meanwhile I am still waiting for any sign of a refund from Avanti.

In both cases, the companies involved knew fairly quickly that they would have to issue a refund. The Booking.com refund came through within an hour, while the Avanti ones still haven't come through over a week later. Same credit card provider, so the difference can only be down to the companies concerned.

I've never had a refund from booking.com for an instant cancellation so I've no idea. Without seeing their full payment workflow it's impossible to say. But it may not have been a "refund" in a technical sense, rather a cancellation of an authorisation, for example.

There are ways Avanti could prevent this, but as it stands, this is the best their customer support can do with how their site is coded.

 

[Belperpete]

I've never had a refund from booking.com for an instant cancellation so I've no idea. Without seeing their full payment workflow it's impossible to say. But it may not have been a "refund" in a technical sense, rather a cancellation of an authorisation, for example.

There are ways Avanti could prevent this, but as it stands, this is the best their customer support can do with how their site is coded.

It may be the best that their customer support can do, but it is evidently not the best that Avanti could do. The contrast between my experiences with Avanti and Booking.com couldn't be starker.

Avanti customer services have responded that it may be up to ten working days before the refund gets through, i.e. over two weeks allowing for the bank holiday! And they have failed to provide any explanation as to why the tickets were cancelled.

 

[dosxuk]

So if immediate refunds are impossible, how can Booking.com do them?

I had a similar issue with an accomodation booking I made on Sunday. I made the booking, and received a text from my credit card issuer that payment had been made. Unfortunately the accomodation provider didn't accept the booking, so booking.com had to issue a refund, which they did within the hour, and I received another text from my credit card provider. Meanwhile I am still waiting for any sign of a refund from Avanti.

In both cases, the companies involved knew fairly quickly that they would have to issue a refund. The Booking.com refund came through within an hour, while the Avanti ones still haven't come through over a week later. Same credit card provider, so the difference can only be down to the companies concerned.

Almost certainly because the original payment had not been processed at that point, so rather than a refund, it was just lifting the authorisation hold from the funds. Same way as when you go to a petrol station and it puts a hold on £100 until you complete the process, or setting up an account needs to do a check to see if they can actually get money from the supplied card details, so puts a hold on for £1 - the held funds can be released almost immediately.

The whole modern banking system does a very good job at hiding the complexity and mountains of rules that live in the background, these days it's only when you step outside of the main payment flows that you come up against them.

 

[Belperpete]

Almost certainly because the original payment had not been processed at that point, so rather than a refund, it was just lifting the authorisation hold from the funds.

Yes, but if Booking.com can do it that way, so could Avanti. The delay isn't an inherent feature of the card processing system, as some have suggested, it is down to how Avanti have chosen to implement their booking site.

 

[Haywain]

Yes, but if Booking.com can do it that way, so could Avanti. The delay isn't an inherent feature of the card processing system, as some have suggested, it is down to how Avanti have chosen to implement their booking site.

But if Avanti did the same you wouldn’t have immediate access to your tickets. Booking.com do it that way because they need to confirm the transaction with the accommodation provider, so don’t confirm the payment immediately.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But if Avanti did the same you wouldn’t have immediate access to your tickets.

I think that's a red herring. It's the authorisation that confirms the money is there. Settlement doesn't happen for a few days even if the company requests it immediately, though it's happening quicker these days than it was. Every other business considers the authorisation sufficient to release goods or services.

 

[Haywain]

I think that's a red herring. It's the authorisation that confirms the money is there. Settlement doesn't happen for a few days even if the company requests it immediately, though it's happening quicker these days than it was. Every other business considers the authorisation sufficient to release goods or services.

And providing immediate access to the tickets will mean a refund rather than a cancelled authorisation.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And providing immediate access to the tickets will mean a refund rather than a cancelled authorisation.

No, it won't, because the authorisation is what guarantees they will get paid, not the settlement claim. It is not necessary to issue the settlement claim prior to issuing the tickets, indeed it would probably be quite sensible to hold off for 15 minutes if you're a retailer with a 15 minute grace period. You can issue it later, when you issue it has no effect anyway.

Consider fuel payment. That's all done with authorisations - the claim isn't issued until the fuel is in my tank and I've driven off. And that's a situation where there's a physical product involved (i.e. theft can be committed) - a train ticket is an abstract contract to travel that has no direct cost beyond the piece of paper.

That is solely a policy issue.

 

[Edvid]

In both cases, the companies involved knew fairly quickly that they would have to issue a refund. The Booking.com refund came through within an hour, while the Avanti ones still haven't come through over a week later. Same credit card provider, so the difference can only be down to the companies concerned.

That assumes Booking.com and Avanti use the same payment processor and acquiring bank, which is unlikely (and yes, that can affect the 'journey' of a refund). It is possible that Avanti and the banking system are both responsible for the delay.