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The cost of living agenda - how should the railway contribute ?

What approach should the PM take in making passenger rail contribute to the cost of living agenda

  • Ongoing fares freeze/cap

    Votes: 35 15.9%
  • Nationwide Network Card/National Railcard

    Votes: 61 27.7%
  • Abolish peak fares

    Votes: 59 26.8%
  • Tax/salary incentive

    Votes: 10 4.5%
  • Better fares competition on the railway

    Votes: 13 5.9%
  • Other

    Votes: 14 6.4%
  • Nothing - everything's honky-dory

    Votes: 21 9.5%
  • Income based railcard/discount

    Votes: 7 3.2%

  • Total voters
    220

Magdalia

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And there wasn't a railcard discount at age 30nwhen I was 30.
Anyone below 60 now was born after 1966, and therefore only 14 when the student railcard was opened up to all with a 24 years upper limit. Anyone under 60 had a good few years of young person's railcard eligibility, whether or not they were a student.

Before we start off down the "other peoples money" route, I think it's worth remembering that residents of Liverpool and elsewhere pay the full range of taxation, therefore national taxation is their, not "someone elses" money.
They do, but the fact remains that only London and the South East are net contributors, all other regions are net recipients.

(I do wish they'd stop claiming that net contribution to the exchequer is the same thing as net contribution to the economy though)

It is a fair point, but a distinction without a difference. The regional GDP numbers for 2023 are here:


Regional economic activity by gross domestic product, UK: 1998 to 2023​

Annual estimates of economic activity by UK country, region and local area using gross domestic product (GDP).
Table 1 shows the GDP per head figures for 2023:

London £69077
South East £41319
(England average £40382)
South West £35731
North West £35635
East of England £35442
Yorks+Humber £32625
West Midlands £32077
East Midlands £31446
North East £28583

A more usual interpretation of economics would be that the state should aim to smooth out those disparities through expenditure.
On a regional basis, this is the approach that has consistently failed over decades. What is actually required is to bring economic growth to the least well performing regions so that they catch up with those that are better performing. It isn't a usual interpretation of economics now.

But where this approach does work really well is by age. The young and the old are net recipients, the productive years in between is when people are net givers, and that isn't going to change. That's why we have railcards for young people and seniors, and why it is economically bonkers to give that blanket support to 30-60 year olds too.


Pity poor Cambridge which is stuck slap-bang on top of this imaginary boundary.
Cambridge can prosper without your pity thank you, though it is one of the most unequal cities in England, and bringing that prosperity to all postcodes is a challenge. But rail fares are not going to be playing any part. The £2 bus fare will have far more impact, as does the Cambridgeshire and Peterborough Tiger bus pass, available to under 25s, which gives £1 fares. The Tiger pass is very successful, with 25% take up in Cambridge City and 33% in South Cambridgeshire.
The subject of the thread is poorly framed. The underlying issues are a productivity crisis and a government affordability crisis. We have a stagnant tax base and yet want the government to do more and more. We don't have the money to treat the symptoms. We have to divert resources towards treating the cause.

As many others have eloquently argued, just throwing money at subsidising rail fares would be a very blunt and ineffective way of spending that money.
Well put. I'm wary of the long term impact of the £2 bus cap, but, to give breathing space in the cost of living crisis, it is very sharp and effective.

Coming back to my OP, alleviating the cost of living crisis is specifically about helping people in the bottom to middle income spectrum whether they are in a position to work or not, wherever they are in the country. For this reason, an across the board scheme available to all, is far more effective than our patchwork of railcards with a big gap in the middle. This has been recognised with the £2 bus fare scheme. It needs to be recognised with railway fares.
The £2 bus fare cap is far more effective because of the different demographics of bus and rail users, and buses reaching far better into the postcodes that need help than is the case with rail. There is no equivalence.

Also given the fact that according to our best guestimations the overall cost of such a railcard would be absorbed by organic reductions in subsidy in less than a year, suggests that it shouldn't be seen as unaffordable.
Yet again, someone else will pay. There is no guarantee of "organic reductions in subsidy" and every penny of any reduction is needed to spend elsewhere. It is unaffordable.
 
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yorksrob

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Anyone below 60 now was born after 1966, and therefore only 14 when the student railcard was opened up to all with a 24 years upper limit. Anyone under 60 had a good few years of young person's railcard eligibility, whether or not they were a student.

You distinctly referenced age thirty, at which age a large proportion of working age passengers never had access to a railcard discount.

They do, but the fact remains that only London and the South East are net contributors, all other regions are net recipients.



It is a fair point, but a distinction without a difference. The regional GDP numbers for 2023 are here:



Table 1 shows the GDP per head figures for 2023:

London £69077
South East £41319
(England average £40382)
South West £35731
North West £35635
East of England £35442
Yorks+Humber £32625
West Midlands £32077
East Midlands £31446
North East £28583


On a regional basis, this is the approach that has consistently failed over decades. What is actually required is to bring economic growth to the least well performing regions so that they catch up with those that are better performing. It isn't a usual interpretation of economics now.

I find this line of argument completely meaningless as a way for arbitrarily deciding a railcard boundary.

Infact, if you're helping people with a cost of living crisis, it makes sense to provide that support to areas with lower growth.

Laissez-faire unfettered capitalism is the economic approach that has consistently failed over the last few decades and it is leaving people with less secure employment.

But where this approach does work really well is by age. The young and the old are net recipients, the productive years in between is when people are net givers, and that isn't going to change. That's why we have railcards for young people and seniors, and why it is economically bonkers to give that blanket support to 30-60 year olds too.

If you take your argument to its extreme, no blanket railcards make sense. There will be some wealthy pensioners with a fixed income who don't need a discount. Similarly, there will be people in their fifties struggling to find additional employment.

By contrast, I and most sensible people recognise that a blanket railcard holds various advantages in terms of reach, simplicity of administration and product understandability that many European countries also recognise.

Cambridge can prosper without your pity thank you, though it is one of the most unequal cities in England, and bringing that prosperity to all postcodes is a challenge. But rail fares are not going to be playing any part. The £2 bus fare will have far more impact, as does the Cambridgeshire and Peterborough Tiger bus pass, available to under 25s, which gives £1 fares. The Tiger pass is very successful, with 25% take up in Cambridge City and 33% in South Cambridgeshire.

In an unequal city, there will be many people just about managing for whom a railcard will be more useful than a £2 bus fare. They may have relatives elsewhere in Anglia for example.

Well put. I'm wary of the long term impact of the £2 bus cap, but, to give breathing space in the cost of living crisis, it is very sharp and effective.

The £2 bus fare cap is far more effective because of the different demographics of bus and rail users, and buses reaching far better into the postcodes that need help than is the case with rail. There is no equivalence.

Ah there we go - a few posts ago, you were celebrating the variety of passengers using the train, now we're back to rail users being rich and bus users being poor.

This whole narrative is grossly over simplified and is nothing but an excuse for those who want to justify sky high rail fares.

I don't pity Cambridge at all - it's got plenty going for it. I just recognise that a lot of its residents would benefit more from a national railcard, than they would from failed kitchen sink economics.

Yet again, someone else will pay. There is no guarantee of "organic reductions in subsidy" and every penny of any reduction is needed to spend elsewhere. It is unaffordable.

I pay plenty into the Nation's railway, thank you.
 

Bald Rick

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I've done some travelling off peak around East Anglia. The local trains are generally 2 or three carriages and don't tend to be overflowing.

It must have been a while ago, as the shortest train that GA operate is 3 car, but usually 4. Cross Country to Cambridge / Stansted are almost always 3 car. The only two cars are about half the EMR services to Norwich.


The Network Rail funding is separate, though that may not be the case under GBR.

NR / TOC funding is seperate, but there are combined accounts.


I pay plenty into the Nation's railway, thank you.

As this thread is about “the cost of living agenda”, would it be fair to say that the railway’s contributions should be to those who are struggling most with the cost of living?

And not those who choose to spend a lot of their money on the railway for leisure purposes?
 

yorksrob

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It must have been a while ago, as the shortest train that GA operate is 3 car, but usually 4. Cross Country to Cambridge / Stansted are almost always 3 car. The only two cars are about half the EMR services to Norwich.




NR / TOC funding is seperate, but there are combined accounts.




As this thread is about “the cost of living agenda”, would it be fair to say that the railway’s contributions should be to those who are struggling most with the cost of living?

And not those who choose to spend a lot of their money on the railway for leisure purposes?

I do use the two carriage EMR services quite often as it happens. That said, even three and four carriage trains are still comparatively short.

As I've mentioned, I believe there needs to be direct assistance for those worst off, however cost of living assistance needs to be across a broader spectrum. People might have relatives in the next county that they need to visit regularly. That gets put down as "leisure" but its still fairly important for people on a personal level.

Isn't it frustrating when your counterparts in Europe are talking about their Bahn Cards and Climate tickets etc, yet the best we seem to be able to come up with is abolishing off-peak fares ?
 

Starmill

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They do, but the fact remains that only London and the South East are net contributors, all other regions are net recipients.
You love repeating this, but it does not mean what you think it does. I could equally say that people pay almost exactly the same tax rates across all of England and Wales, and yet far more public spending goes in the South East of England than anywhere else. Arguably the subsidy is economic not financial, and is flowing the opposite way to the way you think.


Either way, it doesn't really matter. The UK opprates on a centralised solidarity model. Everyone receives almost exactly the same NHS services for example no matter where they are in the country. People are entitled to them, because it's been paid for with their money.

It's public money; the clue is in the name. It doesn't belong to people who pay more tax over less, or to citizens over non-citizens, it belongs to everyone equally. Being salty about it because you paid a lot of tax won't help anyone.
But where this approach does work really well is by age. The young and the old are net recipients, the productive years in between is when people are net givers, and that isn't going to change. That's why we have railcards for young people and seniors, and why it is economically bonkers to give that blanket support to 30-60 year olds too.
This isn't really true. People in their 60s are vastly less in need of assistance than people in their 30s. People's biggest earning potential is clustered strongly around their final decade of work, which is from around age 60.

Your argument could make sense if the Senior Railcard age were aligned to state pension age, but this has never been government policy.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

The fares freeze appears to have been an appropriate cost of living measure.
I've voted for this option. It would actually disbenefit me to have the rule in place for longer as it may mean some trains with very low capacity (so most trains in huge parts of the country) become more crowded, and I don't pay very much for the lines I absolutely need to be travelling on regardless. I think it's the least bad option from an immediate selection of very poor options however.
 
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Bald Rick

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Isn't it frustrating when your counterparts in Europe are talking about their Bahn Cards and Climate tickets etc,

Nol it’s not. We have other ways of providing cheap fares. A friend of mine has just bought a 1st class return from Leeds to London for £70. If that’s not great value, I don’t know what is.
 

Starmill

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Nol it’s not. We have other ways of providing cheap fares. A friend of mine has just bought a 1st class return from Leeds to London for £70. If that’s not great value, I don’t know what is.
With a railcard? I'm not sure that's a good example given the context of the thread.

The price of a return in standard class from say Birmingham to Aberdeen booked on the day may be the sort of thing you're after. Now that is surprisingly good value.
 

speedy1

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People's biggest earning potential is clustered strongly around their final decade of work, which is from around age 60.

I don't mean to disregard your whole post but as this point follows on from one of my posts...

60? Is that a typo? :s Do you have some data sources for that? And what exactly is meant by "earning potential"?

Looking at data such as average or median salaries, this is not true [0] [1] - instead a decline from around 50.

Or from ONS [2] median weekly gross pay, 2025:
Age BandMedian Weekly Earnings
16-17b135.4
18-21329.4
22-29635.4
30-39809.6
40-49880.1
50-59840.7
60+640.3

and 2019:

Age Bands
Median Weekly Earnings
16-17b76.9
18-21238.9
22-29448.4
30-39537.7
40-49558.7
50-59505.6
60+376.9

[0] https://www.forbes.com/advisor/uk/business/average-uk-salary-by-age/
[1] https://www.sage.com/en-gb/blog/average-salary-uk/
[2] https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentan...gsandworkinghours/datasets/agegroupashetable6
 
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yorksrob

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Nol it’s not. We have other ways of providing cheap fares. A friend of mine has just bought a 1st class return from Leeds to London for £70. If that’s not great value, I don’t know what is.

Yes, when there's a Z in the day and the railway fancies it.

As someone reliant on train travel, I require more certainty on train fares than when the industry fancies throwing us a cheap fare.
 

NCT

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It's not my political preference to have better infrastructure, it's simply economic reality. It's a non-negotiable necessity, in all of the UK's cities (yes I know there's the St Asaph vs Reading question but I think people can understand what I mean, obviously Reading should have trams and St Asaph shouldn't).

My political preferences would be things like car free neighbourhoods with vouchers for bicycles and zero fare local bus transport for everyone. Those are far too hard a sell, though, so I don't endorse them. I would be happy to settle for plain old economic growth.

Better infrastructure needs money, which comes from either taxes or fares. The political reality is tax receipts are insufficient to cover all competing government priorities, and all the other people whose money you want more of are saying 'non'. Railways are far from the top of the government's priority. You are playing a zero-sum game - money spent on subsidising already cheap fares is money that is no longer available for enhancements and renewals.

If you want better railways then fare income will need to do more of the work. Reducing existing subsidies will create the necessary fiscal headroom for enhancements / electrification etc.

Creating such headroom for enhancements would be far more effective at unlocking economic growth than subsidising fares.
 

Starmill

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Better infrastructure needs money, which comes from either taxes or fares.
No it doesn't. Usually it comes from government borrowing.
You are playing a zero-sum game - money spent on subsidising already cheap fares is money that is no longer available for enhancements and renewals.
Again this is wrong because you're assuming that the overall size of the economy is fixed.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Reducing existing subsidies will create the necessary fiscal headroom for enhancements / electrification etc.
It won't. The money from the current budget would simply be banked and spent elsewhere, not on transport.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Creating such headroom for enhancements would be far more effective at unlocking economic growth than subsidising fares.
It won't though. People are free to choose modes otherwise than public transport and overwhelmingly that's exactly what they do. Putting up prices above today's levels is likely to see the industry shrinking further. You can't tax your way to growth.
 

NCT

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No it doesn't. Usually it comes from government borrowing.

How do you think borrowing is paid for?

Again this is wrong because you're assuming that the overall size of the economy is fixed.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

By focusing spending on giveaways instead of investments you are in effect fixing, or even shrinking, the economy. Not all government spending is generative.

It won't. The money from the current budget would simply be banked and spent elsewhere, not on transport.

The more the railway demands revenue spend the more it becomes persona non grata within government.
 

Starmill

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How do you think borrowing is paid for?
It's repaid from increased tax revenues which result from larger values of economic activity.
By focusing spending on giveaways instead of investments you are in effect fixing, or even shrinking, the economy. Not all government spending is generative.
I'm not focused on that at all. As I've said repeatedly, the current arrangements suit me and their continuation is very much in my interest because any reforms will take away from my advantages and result in busier trains. I legitimately don't have to pay very much for the journeys I need to make. I doubt, sorely, though that the vast majority of the country who use trains either rarely or never at all (pretty much all of whom have car access) think that though. I also recognise that my position is a particular privilege as someone who has spent years understanding fares.

But I am saying that you are mistaken about borrowing and growth. Expanded capacity is urgently needed. There's no possibility to offer this without big spend on infrastructure. There's no viable funding model for that other than government borrowing secured against future growth.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

The more the railway demands revenue spend the more it becomes persona non grata within government.
Oh I completely agree. But I'd tackle that through the wasteful current spending we do. It's got nothing to do with the capital budget or the price levels.
 

martin butler

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The treasury would love to reduce the amount of state aid the railways receive, but how can they, unless costs are cut, and fares increased? all of which will make matters worse,

As I see it, the railways need to attract more customers, and to do that means better services, at a cost people can afford,

Where can savings be made? Would nationalising and centralising the ownership of rolling stock deliver cost savings? or increase costs?

The choice is either, accept the network needs investment over a longer term, or you reduce the network to a smaller size by closing rural routes, and have only core routes, priced at a premium in the hope that they are profitable, but would the social cost be acceptable? could the bus network cope with increased need for services? and how much more money will need to be spent on road improvements?
 

NCT

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It's repaid from increased tax revenues which result from larger values of economic activity.

Provided the borrowing is spent on generative pursuits. Decades of deficit spending above annual economic growth rates suggests this hasn't always been the case. Capital markets have now lost confidence hence government borrowing at 5%.

I'm not focused on that at all. As I've said repeatedly, the current arrangements suit me and their continuation is very much in my interest because any reforms will take away from my advantages and result in busier trains. I legitimately don't have to pay very much for the journeys I need to make. I doubt, sorely, though that the vast majority of the country who use trains either rarely or never at all (pretty much all of whom have car access) think that though. I also recognise that my position is a particular privilege as someone who has spent years understanding fares.

That means we need to divert spending to addressing fundamentals instead of just patching things up as we are. Spending needs to go towards skills and the built environment so better skills and agglomeration can produce higher productivity, so more of the country can generate sufficient wealth to cover their own residents' consumption wants and needs, with less and less reliance on geographical fiscal transfer. One of the welcoming by-products of that is greater willingness to pay for train travel and a more captive market for trains (cities becoming harder to driver / park in).

But I am saying that you are mistaken about borrowing and growth. Expanded capacity is urgently needed. There's no possibility to offer this without big spend on infrastructure. There's no viable funding model for that other than government borrowing secured against future growth.

Capital markets are hawkish, so we effectively have a ceiling of how much we can borrow every year before they flip out. Against a finite budget, if you want more of that money to go into investment, you need to reduce the amounts allocated to day-to-day spending.
 

Starmill

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Provided the borrowing is spent on generative pursuits. Decades of deficit spending above annual economic growth rates suggests this hasn't always been the case. Capital markets have now lost confidence hence government borrowing at 5%.



That means we need to divert spending to addressing fundamentals instead of just patching things up as we are. Spending needs to go towards skills and the built environment so better skills and agglomeration can produce higher productivity, so more of the country can generate sufficient wealth to cover their own residents' consumption wants and needs, with less and less reliance on geographical fiscal transfer. One of the welcoming by-products of that is greater willingness to pay for train travel and a more captive market for trains (cities becoming harder to driver / park in).



Capital markets are hawkish, so we effectively have a ceiling of how much we can borrow every year before they flip out. Against a finite budget, if you want more of that money to go into investment, you need to reduce the amounts allocated to day-to-day spending.
5% is a perfectly sensible rate to borrow at for building railways (mainline IC services or urban Metro and tramway projects) with. It's a lot cheaper than the PFI rates we agreed for many similar projects. I suggest we start there and worry about ticket prices another time personally.
 

Magdalia

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You distinctly referenced age thirty, at which age a large proportion of working age passengers never had access to a railcard discount.
No you chose 30 as the starting age for your proposal.

I find this line of argument completely meaningless as a way for arbitrarily deciding a railcard boundary.
All boundaries are arbitrary, a line has to be drawn somewhere.

Infact, if you're helping people with a cost of living crisis, it makes sense to provide that support to areas with lower growth.
No it makes sense to support people on the costs that are causing the crisis, does a person heat or eat? Can they afford to get to and from work?

The support for areas with lower growth needs to go on improving their growth.

They are two different objectives.

In an unequal city, there will be many people just about managing for whom a railcard will be more useful than a £2 bus fare. They may have relatives elsewhere in Anglia for example.

Some may have relatives elsewhere, but, even if they did, a railcard won't be more useful than the £2 bus cap.

If you take your argument to its extreme, no blanket railcards make sense. There will be some wealthy pensioners with a fixed income who don't need a discount. Similarly, there will be people in their fifties struggling to find additional employment.

By contrast, I and most sensible people recognise that a blanket railcard holds various advantages in terms of reach, simplicity of administration and product understandability
In many spending decisions there is a balance to strike between universality and means testing, with politics and economics both coming into play. Economically there may be a case for means testing, but that has economic costs, means testing needs bureaucracy, and political costs, as winter fuel allowance demonstrated. However desirable it might be to means test the senior railcard, it would be a brave politician to try to implement it, and the savings would probably be less than the cost of the means testing. That's why the original July 2024 winter fuel allowance proposal used a pre-existing means test.

So for something like a railcard, it makes economic and political sense to offer it universally above an arbitrarily fixed age, and not at all below that age. That keeps the economics costs down, and the political costs down too. It is the way government works.

Blanket railcards do offer the advantages that you describe, those are necessary conditions but they are not sufficient. Most sensible people don't support a railcard for 30-60 year olds because it is a cost on the taxpayer that the country can't afford, and targeted on a group of people who need it least. The winter fuel allowance saga also demonstrates that, once a concession is given, it is very difficult to remove, so, in the current financial circumstances, the government has to be very cautious about offering any new concessions. PIP and SEND are classic examples of what can happen if a policy has open ended cost implications that turn out to be bigger than forecast, but very difficult to remove.

Ah there we go - a few posts ago, you were celebrating the variety of passengers using the train, now we're back to rail users being rich and bus users being poor.

This whole narrative is grossly over simplified and is nothing but an excuse for those who want to justify sky high rail fares.

I don't pity Cambridge at all - it's got plenty going for it. I just recognise that a lot of its residents would benefit more from a national railcard, than they would from failed kitchen sink economics.
There is a mix of bus users and a mix of rail users, nobody is excluded from either. But more people squeezed by the cost of living crisis are bus users than train users. In Cambridge that's clearly obvious from the postcodes: the poorest parts of the city are on the bus routes and not near the rail stations. The people in Cambridge squeezed by the cost of living crisis in Cambridge will benefit far more from the £2 bus cap than they would from a railcard.

It is you who thinks that the railway is a rich man's toy: if that's the case, then it is those rich men who would most benefit from your proposed railcard.

And what is kitchen sink economics when its at home?

You love repeating this, but it does not mean what you think it does. I could equally say that people pay almost exactly the same tax rates across all of England and Wales, and yet far more public spending goes in the South East of England than anywhere else. Arguably the subsidy is economic not financial, and is flowing the opposite way to the way you think.
No. London produces far more GDP per head and has many more higher rate taxpayers than elsewhere. Remember that 75% of the tax take comes from income tax, NICs, corporation tax and VAT, all of them taxes on economic activity.

Everyone receives almost exactly the same NHS services for example no matter where they are in the country. People are entitled to them, because it's been paid for with their money.
Rail and the NHS are not equivalent. The NHS is a universal service free at the point of use, the railway is not. People are only entitled to a rail journey once they have bought a ticket.

The money from the current budget would simply be banked and spent elsewhere, not on transport.
Which is what needs to happen, the government has higher priorities than transport.

that many European countries also recognise.
What other European countries do is irrelevant. Their financial circumstances are different, in particular they have the advantage of much lower interest costs through being in the Euro.

But I am saying that you are mistaken about borrowing and growth. Expanded capacity is urgently needed. There's no possibility to offer this without big spend on infrastructure. There's no viable funding model for that other than government borrowing secured against future growth.
And this is what we should be discussing. The railway has almost no part to play in the cost of living crisis, but it has a huge part to play in loosening the shackles on economic growth. Part of that is big Nationally Significant Infrastructure Projects, like Trans Pennine Route Upgrade and East West Rail, but now there is also greater prospects for smaller projects prioritised locally.

Provided the borrowing is spent on generative pursuits. Decades of deficit spending above annual economic growth rates suggests this hasn't always been the case. Capital markets have now lost confidence hence government borrowing at 5%.

Which is why the railway needs to reduce its operating costs deficit. The bond markets need to be convinced that the borrowing is for capital projects that deliver future economic growth, not cack-handed schemes that only show that the railway and the government don't have current spending under control.
 

Starmill

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No. London produces far more GDP per head and has many more higher rate taxpayers than elsewhere. Remember that 75% of the tax take comes from income tax, NICs, corporation tax and VAT, all of them taxes on economic activity.
So you love to repeat! And yet the fact continues that most things in politics and economics just aren't driven by VAT and corporation tax and the like. There are far more important factors than who's paying higher rate taxes (except to those who are salty about having to cough them up, of course!).

Either way it's just evidence of failure though, and there is no route to growth without addressing the disparity in transport infrastructure.

Which is what needs to happen, the government has higher priorities than transport.
Of course it does. So do I. But we can't discuss a wholesale view of growth without also discussing transport infrastructure disparity.
 

NCT

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So you love to repeat! And yet the fact continues that most things in politics and economics just aren't driven by VAT and corporation tax and the like. There are far more important factors than who's paying higher rate taxes (except to those who are salty about having to cough them up, of course!).

Either way it's just evidence of failure though, and there is no route to growth without addressing the disparity in transport infrastructure.


Of course it does. So do I. But we can't discuss a wholesale view of growth without also discussing transport infrastructure disparity.

A maths lecturer of mine once said 'the three Rs of good teaching are repetition, repetition, and repetition'.

(Heavy) Transport infrastructure is about the 4th priority after skills, anywhere vs somewhere attitudes, and the built environment.

The first transport priority for city regions outside of London and the South East is reurbanising 'zone 1 and zone 2', for which the transport priority is mostly walking and cycling.
 

Magdalia

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So you love to repeat! And yet the fact continues that most things in politics and economics just aren't driven by VAT and corporation tax and the like. There are far more important factors than who's paying higher rate taxes (except to those who are salty about having to cough them up, of course!).

And it looks like I'm going to have to repeat it some more!

Everything government does is funded directly or indirectly by tax, so everything in politics is driven by tax. That's because without tax income government can't deliver any services, pay the interest on its existing debt, or give lenders the confidence to lend it more money.

In the UK economic growth is so important because the 4 biggest taxes, making up about three quarters of all tax income, are all levied on forms of economic activity: employment income (income tax and NICs), company profits (corporation tax) and final expenditure on goods and services (VAT).

It is the almost complete absence of economic growth since 2008 that has meant that successive governments have only been able to increase expenditure by raising tax rates and borrowing more.

Economic growth is what will ease the cost of living crisis, through higher employment income and higher final expenditure on goods and services.

Furthermore, economic growth, and higher tax income, will increase the confidence of lenders, leading to lower interest rates on UK debt.

If there is economic growth in every postcode, then everyone wins.
 

Starmill

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Rail and the NHS are not equivalent. The NHS is a universal service free at the point of use, the railway is not. People are only entitled to a rail journey once they have bought a ticket.
They are equivalent at the infrastructure level. Healthcare infrastructure and transport infrastructure must be available if people need them, it's a non-negotiable part of the government's job. They don't need to be perfect, they don't need to be operationally similar, but the opportunities to receive need to exist. Currently the government fails badly o
And it looks like I'm going to have to repeat it some more!

Everything government does is funded directly or indirectly by tax, so everything in politics is driven by tax. That's because without tax income government can't deliver any services, pay the interest on its existing debt, or give lenders the confidence to lend it more money.

In the UK economic growth is so important because the 4 biggest taxes, making up about three quarters of all tax income, are all levied on forms of economic activity: employment income (income tax and NICs), company profits (corporation tax) and final expenditure on goods and services (VAT).

It is the almost complete absence of economic growth since 2008 that has meant that successive governments have only been able to increase expenditure by raising tax rates and borrowing more.

Economic growth is what will ease the cost of living crisis, through higher employment income and higher final expenditure on goods and services.

Furthermore, economic growth, and higher tax income, will increase the confidence of lenders, leading to lower interest rates on UK debt.

If there is economic growth in every postcode, then everyone wins.
Great but that hasn't got anything to do with who is a so-called net contributor has it?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

A maths lecturer of mine once said 'the three Rs of good teaching are repetition, repetition, and repetition'.

(Heavy) Transport infrastructure is about the 4th priority after skills, anywhere vs somewhere attitudes, and the built environment.

The first transport priority for city regions outside of London and the South East is reurbanising 'zone 1 and zone 2', for which the transport priority is mostly walking and cycling.
The UK has excellent skills overall, and terrible infrastructure overall. Improving skills while not doing anything about infrastructure has been government policy since at last 1997 and is the cause of many of the current issues.
 

Magdalia

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Great but that hasn't got anything to do with who is a so-called net contributor has it?
It has everything to do with it, because London is so different from the rest of the UK. Every part of the UK benefits from London's outlier performance on economic activity and tax payments, getting a higher standard of public services than would be the case if London only performed at roughly the same level as the rest of the UK.

HM Treasury know that London's railway plays a critical part in London's outlier economic success, and that, if they didn't support it, economic activity and tax revenue would collapse, leaving less money for public services all round the UK.

The fundamental point that people here need to understand is that government support for the railway in London doesn't just benefit Londoners, it benefits everyone, because it keeps the tax revenues from London flowing in.

They are equivalent at the infrastructure level. Healthcare infrastructure and transport infrastructure must be available if people need them, it's a non-negotiable part of the government's job. They don't need to be perfect, they don't need to be operationally similar, but the opportunities to receive need to exist. Currently the government fails badly o
I agree with you on this. Here in Cambridge, the Addenbrookes A+E runs at more than 3 times its design capacity. A new acute care hospital is more important for us than any transport infrastructure. Almost everyone in Cambridge has either experienced directly the hell that is Addenbrookes A+E, or knows someone who has.

The UK has excellent skills overall, and terrible infrastructure overall. Improving skills while not doing anything about infrastructure has been government policy since at last 1997 and is the cause of many of the current issues.
I agree that the UK has overinvested in education and underinvested in infrastructure. The one exception I'd make is construction industry skills, which we need to build the infrastructure (and the houses).
 

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The UK has excellent skills overall, and terrible infrastructure overall. Improving skills while not doing anything about infrastructure has been government policy since at last 1997 and is the cause of many of the current issues.

If that were the case cities like Liverpool, Sheffield and Newcastle would be much richer places. The size of the knowledge economies and the extent of their agglomeration are far lower than what their rail / light rail transport can support.

By the same token Edinburgh, Bristol and Leeds would be basket cases.
 

Starmill

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If that were the case cities like Liverpool, Sheffield and Newcastle would be much richer places. The size of the knowledge economies and the extent of their agglomeration are far lower than what their rail / light rail transport can support.

By the same token Edinburgh, Bristol and Leeds would be basket cases.
Local transport is much, much better in the Edinburgh commuter area than it is in Sheffield, so what you are saying makes absolutely no sense unfortunately. Also Bristol and Liverpool are very similar in the influence of their "knowledge economies".
 

NCT

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Local transport is much, much better in the Edinburgh commuter area than it is in Sheffield, so what you are saying makes absolutely no sense unfortunately. Also Bristol and Liverpool are very similar in the influence of their "knowledge economies".

Edinburgh is a bus city with (predominantly) slow diesel suburban lines and its strong economic performance predates its tram network. Sheffield is a similar-sized bus city with slow diesel suburban lines but a much more substantial tram network.

When I crunched numbers from the TAG Wider Economic Impacts dataset some years ago (the picture won't have changed much), Bristol's GVA per worker was 25% below London's, and Liverpool's was 39% below London's. 48% of Bristol's jobs are in the producer services sector (similar to London), but only 27% of Liverpool's jobs.

One can plausibly conclude Bristol's GVA per worker is constrained by its poor transport network, whereas Liverpool's is by under-availability of skills.
 

yorksrob

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No you chose 30 as the starting age for your proposal.

You posted this:

"Everyone who is 30-60 now was under 30 once. When they were under 30 they could have had a railcard if they chose to do so."

I'm a long way off from 60 and I only had access to the student card, and most people 30-60 did not have access to a railcard for most of the time under age 30.

All boundaries are arbitrary, a line has to be drawn somewhere.

We have a perfectly sensible boundary already for railway schemes in Great Britain. It's called the coastline

No it makes sense to support people on the costs that are causing the crisis, does a person heat or eat? Can they afford to get to and from work?

The support for areas with lower growth needs to go on improving their growth.

They are two different objectives.

People being able to go about their daily lives in terms of transport are part of the cost causing the crisis. Why else do you think we had a fuel duty freeze for so many years.

Some may have relatives elsewhere, but, even if they did, a railcard won't be more useful than the £2 bus cap.

How so ? For your cambridge dweller, a £2 bus cap isn't going to be much use visiting a relative if the live in Peterborough, let alone Carlisle.

In many spending decisions there is a balance to strike between universality and means testing, with politics and economics both coming into play. Economically there may be a case for means testing, but that has economic costs, means testing needs bureaucracy, and political costs, as winter fuel allowance demonstrated. However desirable it might be to means test the senior railcard, it would be a brave politician to try to implement it, and the savings would probably be less than the cost of the means testing. That's why the original July 2024 winter fuel allowance proposal used a pre-existing means test.

So for something like a railcard, it makes economic and political sense to offer it universally above an arbitrarily fixed age, and not at all below that age. That keeps the economics costs down, and the political costs down too. It is the way government works.

Blanket railcards do offer the advantages that you describe, those are necessary conditions but they are not sufficient. Most sensible people don't support a railcard for 30-60 year olds because it is a cost on the taxpayer that the country can't afford, and targeted on a group of people who need it least. The winter fuel allowance saga also demonstrates that, once a concession is given, it is very difficult to remove, so, in the current financial circumstances, the government has to be very cautious about offering any new concessions. PIP and SEND are classic examples of what can happen if a policy has open ended cost implications that turn out to be bigger than forecast, but very difficult to remove..

Something like a Network Railcard nationally strikes the right balance between cost and benefit. It's not like a benefit because the user has to stump up an entry cost for the card. It's also unlike a benefit in that most of the costs to run a railway are being paid anyway. It' cost can't exceed the limited proportion of railway revenue lost from people who would have previously paid full price (minus the additional revenue from the price of the railcard.

There is a mix of bus users and a mix of rail users, nobody is excluded from either. But more people squeezed by the cost of living crisis are bus users than train users. In Cambridge that's clearly obvious from the postcodes: the poorest parts of the city are on the bus routes and not near the rail stations. The people in Cambridge squeezed by the cost of living crisis in Cambridge will benefit far more from the £2 bus cap than they would from a railcard.

There are many deprived areas that use the railway as a lifeline, particularly in the North. You're making the fundamental error of assuming that the whole country is geographically homogenous to Cambridge.


More to follow....
 

Magdalia

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You posted this:

"Everyone who is 30-60 now was under 30 once. When they were under 30 they could have had a railcard if they chose to do so."

I'm a long way off from 60 and I only had access to the student card, and most people 30-60 did not have access to a railcard for most of the time under age 30.
But you did get a young persons railcard, at least to age 24. Most people over 60 did not, a few got 3 years of discounted travel if they belonged to the National Union of Students.

We have a perfectly sensible boundary already for railway schemes in Great Britain. It's called the coastline
In this context the boundary is age not geography.

People being able to go about their daily lives in terms of transport are part of the cost causing the crisis. Why else do you think we had a fuel duty freeze for so many years.


How so ? For your cambridge dweller, a £2 bus cap isn't going to be much use visiting a relative if the live in Peterborough, let alone Carlisle.
Local bus trips are part of people's daily lives, trips to Carlisle are not.


There are many deprived areas that use the railway as a lifeline, particularly in the North. You're making the fundamental error of assuming that the whole country is geographically homogenous to Cambridge.
I'm not, and the country not being homogeneous is why solutions need to be local not national.

More to follow....
In anything that follows, please bear in mind that the UK's financial positiion has worsened significantly since this discussion started.

Recent movements in government bond yields mean that there is likely to be a £12bn hole in the budget to cover increased interest costs.
 

martin butler

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Thing is, most of those directly affected by the cost-of-living crisis, are in most cases very unlikely to be rail users on a regular basis, they will either use other forms of public transport, trams, busses etc, or not at all, relying on their own car, or the odd taxi, So I'm unsure just how much help the railway can be,

The most obvious would be an off peak railcard, or special cut price offers directly by the TOC's, days out etc, where entry is included and its a package aimed at households, sold directly on line, using untapped demand etc,

Railcards only work, if the household has disposable income and is likely to already to use, or think about using the train then again, what restrictions do you place on their use? for example a rural line, with no direct services to a major city, then there's an argument about having a railcard valid all day, or services that get you to your designation after say 9.30, then may be discounted tickets should be valid,
 

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