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The cost of living agenda - how should the railway contribute ?

What approach should the PM take in making passenger rail contribute to the cost of living agenda

  • Ongoing fares freeze/cap

    Votes: 35 15.9%
  • Nationwide Network Card/National Railcard

    Votes: 61 27.7%
  • Abolish peak fares

    Votes: 59 26.8%
  • Tax/salary incentive

    Votes: 10 4.5%
  • Better fares competition on the railway

    Votes: 13 5.9%
  • Other

    Votes: 14 6.4%
  • Nothing - everything's honky-dory

    Votes: 21 9.5%
  • Income based railcard/discount

    Votes: 7 3.2%

  • Total voters
    220

Sonic1234

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when they are 30-60 is the time to pay full fare.
Or drive, which does a good job of filling the Government's coffers.

I've been on trains where everyone in the carriage has been a railcard holder (and actually had the card, not trying it on) and guards always seem taken aback at the sound of scanning an undiscounted ticket. This is off-peak and weekends, admittedly not at commuting times. Are 30-60 years olds priced off, or does the railway not provide for the travel needs of this group?
 
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Starmill

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The Network Rail funding is separate, though that may not be the case under GBR.
It isn't. Greater Anglia couldn't provide any services whatsoever without Network Rail's funding.
When they get to 60 they can have a railcard if they choose to do so.
Technically, there can be no guarantees of this. The eligibility age and criteria may change freely in the new world, or the product may be retired. That this is unlikely to happen in the next few years doesn't say much about what might or might not happen in 25-29 years time.
Back then only about 10% of us went to University, the others didn't get any discounted travel at all.
Only before 1982, of course.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

They should be contributing to the economy, not leeching off it.
This is a completely warped understanding. Nobody leeches off anything by buying a train ticket. This is utterly ridiculous.

I don't argue for the position Yorksrob does, for the avoidance of doubt, but unfortunately your analysis is deeply flawed.
 
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speedy1

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Are 30-60 years olds priced off, or does the railway not provide for the travel needs of this group?
Very much the latter I think

30-60 is roughly the age range when your salary is highest – I imagine it's no coincidence there's no railcard for us (no pedants about 3 year renewals at 29 etc please!) – and you're more likely to have kids (the average age of having your first child is about 30, if I recall rightly). So a car is both more likely to be in your household and a more attractive option, even if it's more expensive.

My brother and his family for example have a decent household income, live in London, and only use the train for commuting or visiting very central London. They don't provide the needs of my brother and sister-in-law: shorter journey times than the car for most journeys, comfy seats, quiet, anything approaching the luxury of a car. I think he considers trains for poor people lol

I also have a similar experience as you. "And your railcard", "and your railcard", "and your railcard" is heard very very frequently.
 

Sonic1234

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visiting very central London
Zone 1 is the exception, due to the difficultly of driving there (and it's still surprising how many people try!). Or people don't see the appeal and don't go, which you do find even among people who technically live in London. If anything, someone living in a commuter town with fast rail links to Central London e.g. St Albans is generally far more knowledgeable about Zone 1 than someone living in a Zone 5/6 town.

So a car is both more likely to be in your household and a more attractive option, even if it's more expensive.
Exactly, and people's travel needs have become more localised. As a young adult, your travel needs will be things like visiting parents from uni, visiting school/uni friends who have disbursed across the country, going to major cities, events. Railways are good at this. As you get older, it becomes doing the shopping, taking kids to/from their friends, parties and events, collecting/buying household items, visiting attractions out of town (National Trust etc.): the kind of travel the railway isn't great at (possibly with the exception of Overground in some cases).
 

Starmill

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Very much the latter I think

30-60 is roughly the age range when your salary is highest – I imagine it's no coincidence there's no railcard for us (no pedants about 3 year renewals at 29 etc please!) – and you're more likely to have kids (the average age of having your first child is about 30, if I recall rightly). So a car is both more likely to be in your household and a more attractive option, even if it's more expensive.

My brother and his family for example have a decent household income, live in London, and only use the train for commuting or visiting very central London. They don't provide the needs of my brother and sister-in-law: shorter journey times than the car for most journeys, comfy seats, quiet, anything approaching the luxury of a car. I think he considers trains for poor people lol

I also have a similar experience as you. "And your railcard", "and your railcard", "and your railcard" is heard very very frequently.
Yes exactly. None of this really gets to me, I never pay that much for my travel.

But what gets to me is knowing that people faced with typical long-distance Off Peak and Anytime prices, and Advance tickets which so often are only a few percent cheaper once plans are concrete, will not even consider the railway.

After all why would they? They have a car already. It's comfortable and very fuel efficient, it's nice to drive, you can take as much luggage as you like, it's not going to be too hot or too cold, it's vastly cheaper to pay for fuel than rail tickets, car parking for an afternoon is generally easy to find and inexpensive, in the few places it isn't there's park and ride, and it's infinitely more flexible than and Advance ticket, it doesn't come with a stranger taking video calls on speaker as another watches TikTok, and for journey times it's at the worst only a couple of hours out of your life to use it instead of the train. You sometimes even save time!

The railcard ideas may or may not help with the above. The problem is clear though - cars are a default for the four fifhts of households where there's easy access to one. For some people they've not used a train in years or decades and they wouldn't know where to start because we've hardly made it convenient and easy for them. Others tried it at some point over the past few years and had their service cancelled and waited an hour for the following one to find it heavily crowded as a result and thought "never again".
 

Magdalia

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It isn't. Greater Anglia couldn't provide any services whatsoever without Network Rail's funding.
And that's the same for all passenger operators. On a level playing field, Greater Anglia are contributing and Northern are not.

Only before 1982, of course.
Very few current over 60s were ever eligible for anything other than the student card. Do the maths.


This is a completely warped understanding. Nobody leeches off anything by buying a train ticket.
At present they don't, but it needs to stay like that. 30-60 year olds are in the most productive period of their lives, they can buy their train tickets without a discount, just like all current over 60s did before they were 60.
 

Starmill

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I do.



LU, London & South East, and most Inter-city TOCs are close.
That's far from the subject of the thread so I will simply say that excellence doesn't describe anything in that category for me. LU is the closest.
 

KHCT

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The regional railway has the potential to help a more varied distribution of income groups than the morre commuter focused railway in the South East. That should be reason enough to extend railcard eligibility to it.
Is there any evidence that there's a vast amount of people who would love to use the train in the 'regions' but would only do so if they got 1/3 off the fare? I think the reality is that they aren't using the train because it doesn't provide the solution that they need. Taking 1/3 off an eye-watering fare to travel on a crowded and unreliable route isn't going to get anyone out of their car, no matter how much you want it to. I'm lucky enough to have access to PRIV fares but wouldn't dream of subjecting myself to a long distance journey on Cross Country.

The problem with a national railcard is that you'd be giving a generous discount to people who already use the train so are clearly able to afford the current fares. It's the same issue with the tokenistic fare freeze this year; the biggest financial beneficiaries will be those spending thousands on annual season tickets who can already afford to do so anyway. Price sensitive leisure travellers will probably seek out advance fares which are excluded from the cap and will likely need to jump to cover the funding gap.
 

Starmill

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And that's the same for all passenger operators. On a level playing field, Greater Anglia are contributing and Northern are not.
No passenger or freight services are contributing financially, it's a fallacy to suggest so. In my view that's as it should be, given how low down the priority list financial concerns are versus economic concerns.

Some cost more in public funding than others, but that's exactly the same as all public spending. It isn't a clear basis for evaluating their usefulness, only economic appraisal can do that. Some services will be an economic net contributor and some won't.
 

NCT

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That's far from the subject of the thread so I will simply say that excellence doesn't describe anything in that category for me. LU is the closest.

In terms of operating maximum length trains at maximum train frequencies the infrastructure can support, supported by fares revenue, L&SE and inter-city are pretty much or nearly there. This is the position I want regional TOCs to be in.
 

Starmill

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Very few current over 60s were ever eligible for anything other than the student card. Do the maths.
As I said previously, people who were born around 1958 or prior. So about 18% of the population.
In terms of operating maximum length trains at maximum train frequencies the infrastructure can support, supported by fares revenue, L&SE and inter-city are pretty much or nearly there. This is the position I want regional TOCs to be in.
The post I responded to was also concerned with reliability, punctuality and good journey times, i.e. general strong practice not simply having capacity.

Switzerland has a strong model for delivering very high capacity and punctual, reliable services. But they're also content to spend the public funding necessary for that. People in the UK have a taste for caviar but expect to be able to get it for the price of fish paste.
 

NCT

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No passenger or freight services are contributing financially, it's a fallacy to suggest so. In my view that's as it should be, given how low down the priority list financial concerns are versus economic concerns.

Some cost more in public funding than others, but that's exactly the same as all public spending. It isn't a clear basis for evaluating their usefulness, only economic appraisal can do that. Some services will be an economic net contributor and some won't.

Our city regions outside of London should be net contributors to the economy. They shouldn't be consigned to perpetual subsidised poverty cases. The focus should be investing in skills and labour market fundamentals so those cities can have strong service export economies like Hamburg and Milan, and their populations and commuting/B2B travel demand have sufficient willingness to pay to sustain a railway of excellence rather than having a railway of barely existing that needs subsidies.
 

Starmill

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Our city regions outside of London should be net contributors to the economy. They shouldn't be consigned to perpetual subsidised poverty cases. The focus should be investing in skills and labour market fundamentals so those cities can have strong service export economies like Hamburg and Milan, and their populations and commuting/B2B travel demand have sufficient willingness to pay to sustain a railway of excellence rather than having a railway of barely existing that needs subsidies.
The UK generally performs extremely strongly on international benchmarks for skills and training. It also tends to perform very, very poorly for infrastructure outside of London. Spending more time talking about skills while refusing to pay for new infrastructure up-front is arguably one of the causes of the current arrangement.
 

NCT

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The UK London and The South East generally performs extremely strongly on international benchmarks for skills and training.

Fixed that for you.

Across the UK, there's a pattern of well educated but crap transport cities (like Bristol) doing far better economically than good transport but poorly educated cities.
 

Sonic1234

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The problem with a national railcard is that you'd be giving a generous discount to people who already use the train so are clearly able to afford the current fares.
They might use the train more, and they will be confident in doing so as they are already rail users. A lot of non-railcard holders only use the train for journeys where parking is difficult/expensive but there is a compelling reason to go, hence the focus on London.

As you say, there does need to be an attractive offer from the railways with or without a railcard discount for people to consider it. Poor connections, unreliability, infrequent services etc. won't tempt people at any price. Even in Greater London, you get this - a service just narrowly misses a 2 tph connection leaving you with just under 30 minutes at a suburban station bored.
 

KHCT

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They might use the train more, and they will be confident in doing so as they are already rail users.
But, why would they? Someone who's paying £6000= a year for a season ticket or can afford a couple of hundred quid each for a long distance journey to a weekend away is clearly not motivated by price so doesn't need a discount funded by the taxpayer.
 

yorksrob

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What this demonstrates is that you don't care what the railway costs to taxpayers. I care, and you should too.


The Network Rail funding is separate, though that may not be the case under GBR.


The regional railway has potential to make offers to fill spare capacity, but railcard eligibility is not the way to do it.


The 30-60s are not being singled out.

Everyone who is 30-60 now was under 30 once. When they were under 30 they could have had a railcard if they chose to do so.

Almost everyone who is 30-60 now will be over 60 at some time in the future. When they get to 60 they can have a railcard if they choose to do so.

I'm over 60 now. The only time when I was under 30 and had a railcard was my 3 years as a student. Back then only about 10% of us went to University, the others didn't get any discounted travel at all.

30-60 year olds are in the prime of life. They should be contributing to the economy, not leeching off it. 30-60 year olds got help with rail fares when they were under 30, they will get help when they are over 60, when they are 30-60 is the time to pay full fare.

Actually, I am concerned about taxpayers money. If we're spending £11 billion a year on a railway system, it should be available to the general public including working age people at a reasonable price.

It has to be some sort of twisted right wing economic philosophy that has working people expecting to access public services at a reasonable price as "leeching" off of the economy.

And there wasn't a railcard discount at age 30nwhen I was 30.
 

Starmill

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Fixed that for you.

Across the UK, there's a pattern of well educated but crap transport cities (like Bristol) doing far better economically than good transport but poorly educated cities.
Surely that's obvious though? There are very very few well-paid jobs in, say, Ilfracombe, Barnstaple or Bideford. Public transport and other service infrastructure is also creaking and utterly inadequate, even highways. So if you can access higher-paid work, Bristol has lots and lots to offer, and is about as close as possible, despite it having little better infrastructure than Ilfracombe does.

But faced with this issue the answer is very clearly not to try to diversify the economy of North Somerset towns by, say, establishing a new university and subsidising a new research institution there. It's to give Bristol some new infrastructure worthy of the 1990s.

Anyway, there are no smaller cities with decent public transport to compare with in the UK e.g. Arnhem, Leipzig, Antwerp.
 
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yorksrob

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But, why would they? Someone who's paying £6000= a year for a season ticket or can afford a couple of hundred quid each for a long distance journey to a weekend away is clearly not motivated by price so doesn't need a discount funded by the taxpayer.

Apart from the people who aren't paying £6,000 a year for a season ticket or afford a couple of hundred quid for a long distance ticket.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Is there any evidence that there's a vast amount of people who would love to use the train in the 'regions' but would only do so if they got 1/3 off the fare? I think the reality is that they aren't using the train because it doesn't provide the solution that they need. Taking 1/3 off an eye-watering fare to travel on a crowded and unreliable route isn't going to get anyone out of their car, no matter how much you want it to. I'm lucky enough to have access to PRIV fares but wouldn't dream of subjecting myself to a long distance journey on Cross Country.

The problem with a national railcard is that you'd be giving a generous discount to people who already use the train so are clearly able to afford the current fares. It's the same issue with the tokenistic fare freeze this year; the biggest financial beneficiaries will be those spending thousands on annual season tickets who can already afford to do so anyway. Price sensitive leisure travellers will probably seek out advance fares which are excluded from the cap and will likely need to jump to cover the funding gap.

Most of these people spending thousands of pounds on a season ticket live in the South East and already have access to discounted rail travel through the Network Railcard.

If railcards are so ineffective for peoples needs, how come the ones we have are so popular, unless you think that working age people outside the South East uniquely don't have a need to travel by train.
 
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NCT

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Surely that's obvious though? There are very very few well-paid jobs in, say, Ilfracombe, Barnstaple or Bideford. Public transport and other service infrastructure is also creaking and utterly inadequate, even highways. So if you can access higher-paid work, Bristol has lots and lots to offer, and is about as close as possible, despite it having little better infrastructure than Ilfracombe does.

But faced with this issue the answer is very clearly not to try to diversify the economy of North Somerset towns by, say, establishing a new university and subsidising a new research institution there. It's to give Bristol some new infrastructure worthy of the 1990s.

Anyway, there are no smaller cities with decent public transport to compare with in the UK e.g. Arnhem, Leipzig, Antwerp.

If I lived in Bristol and wanted better rail transport, I'd want the confidence that my transport network captures sufficient income from fares that goes into into the operation, upkeep and investment of Bristol's transport network. I wouldn't want it to be reliant on big-pot funding that's liable to under-capture willingness-to-pay, and liable to be diverted to Liverpool.
 

Starmill

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If I lived in Bristol and wanted better rail transport, I'd want the confidence that my transport network captures sufficient income from fares that goes into into the operation, upkeep and investment of Bristol's transport network. I wouldn't want it to be reliant on big-pot funding that's liable to under-capture willingness-to-pay, and liable to be diverted to Liverpool.
If I lived in Bristol I'd want Liverpool to have approximately the same level of per-capita capital spending from public resources, thus negating any possibility of this kind of competition between Bristol and Liverpool, or indeed anywhere else. Especially given that Bristol and Liverpool are very similar economically and are a similar size.

I'd be happy to argue that all of the UK's small cities are well above the minimum level where they can capture sufficient revenue to fund upkeep, including Bristol, at an appropriate proportion, recognising that in London, as around the world, some current spending comes from public funds and not fares revenues too.
 

NCT

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If I lived in Bristol I'd want Liverpool to have approximately the same level of per-capita capital spending from public resources, thus negating any possibility of this kind of competition between Bristol and Liverpool, or indeed anywhere else. Especially given that Bristol and Liverpool are very similar economically and are a similar size.

I'd be happy to argue that all of the UK's small cities are well above the minimum level where they can capture sufficient revenue to fund upkeep, including Bristol, at an appropriate proportion, recognising that in London, as around the world, some current spending comes from public funds and not fares revenues too.

I'd want Liverpool to take their own initiative and fiscal risk in addressing the deficits in their fundamentals, rather than thinking there's an unconditional other people's pot of money they can use to paper over cracks. Or, if national redistribution is required, that due consideration is given to whether limited money is used for investing in fundamentals or subsiding transport.
 

Starmill

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I'd want Liverpool to take their own initiative and fiscal risk in addressing the deficits in their fundamentals, rather than thinking there's an unconditional other people's pot of money they can use to paper over cracks. Or, if national redistribution is required, that due consideration is given to whether limited money is used for investing in fundamentals or subsiding transport.
Federalism sounds great but it's utterly unworkable in a country like the UK. Of course more devolution is required but rather a lot of the baseline spending will always be fixed from the centre and handed over for local leaders to spend however they wish. Not in accordance with your preferences for it! Even in the US where cities and states have very very broad control over taxation and service prices, federal public money remains important.
 

NCT

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Federalism sounds great but it's utterly unworkable in a country like the UK. Of course more devolution is required but rather a lot of the baseline spending will always be fixed from the centre and handed over for local leaders to spend however they wish. Not in accordance with your preferences for it! Even in the US where cities and states have very very broad control over taxation and service prices, federal public money remains important.

If money comes from the centre then it needs to be spent according to the centre's rules and the centre's budget constraint. That means taxation levels being determined by small-c conservative Middle England, and railway budget being pitted against schools and hospitals, and long-standing Treasury desire to reduce rail subsidy.
 

Starmill

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If money comes from the centre then it needs to be spent according to the centre's rules and the centre's budget constraint. That means taxation levels being determined by small-c conservative Middle England, and railway budget being pitted against schools and hospitals, and long-standing Treasury desire to reduce rail subsidy.
This is just your political preference. There's no actual evidence it's better and nothing objective about it. In any case it's way wide of the subject of the thread.
 

NCT

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This is just your political preference. There's no actual evidence it's better and nothing objective about it. In any case it's way wide of the subject of the thread.

And you are just stating your political preference. However, my political preference is not blinded to more than half a decade of political reality.

The subject of the thread is poorly framed. The underlying issues are a productivity crisis and a government affordability crisis. We have a stagnant tax base and yet want the government to do more and more. We don't have the money to treat the symptoms. We have to divert resources towards treating the cause.

As many others have eloquently argued, just throwing money at subsidising rail fares would be a very blunt and ineffective way of spending that money.
 

Starmill

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And you are just stating your political preference. However, my political preference is not blinded to more than half a decade of political reality.

The subject of the thread is poorly framed. The underlying issues are a productivity crisis and a government affordability crisis. We have a stagnant tax base and yet want the government to do more and more. We don't have the money to treat the symptoms. We have to divert resources towards treating the cause.

As many others have eloquently argued, just throwing money at subsidising rail fares would be a very blunt and ineffective way of spending that money.
It's not my political preference to have better infrastructure, it's simply economic reality. It's a non-negotiable necessity, in all of the UK's cities (yes I know there's the St Asaph vs Reading question but I think people can understand what I mean, obviously Reading should have trams and St Asaph shouldn't).

My political preferences would be things like car free neighbourhoods with vouchers for bicycles and zero fare local bus transport for everyone. Those are far too hard a sell, though, so I don't endorse them. I would be happy to settle for plain old economic growth.
 

Egg Centric

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Actually, I am concerned about taxpayers money. If we're spending £11 billion a year on a railway system, it should be available to the general public including working age people at a reasonable price.

It has to be some sort of twisted right wing economic philosophy that has working people expecting to access public services at a reasonable price as "leeching" off of the economy.

And there wasn't a railcard discount at age 30nwhen I was 30.

It is a general observation of mine that when people talk about "twisted right wing economic philosophy" they often mean "mainstream economics"

Now you can decide to take that in two completely different ways depending upon political persuasion :)

But while it is true that there is a lot in economics, macroeconomics especially that is a bit... sketchy... simple stuff like opportunity cost, scarcity, comparative advantage, externalities, deadweigh loss, supply and demand are imo not too far off physical laws and so arguments like @Magdalia 's maybe ought to be best expressed directly in those terms. It then becomes clearer whether your argument is with the building blocks of basic microeconomics (in which case imo it can be disregarded but others of twisted left wing economic philosophy may disagree) or if it's with how he fits the known facts within these frameworks and if he's missing or twisting something. I certainly find his arguments convincing but that shouldn't come as a surprise ;)

(I do wish he'd stop claiming that net contribution to the exchequer is the same thing as net contribution to the economy though)
 

yorksrob

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I'd want Liverpool to take their own initiative and fiscal risk in addressing the deficits in their fundamentals, rather than thinking there's an unconditional other people's pot of money they can use to paper over cracks. Or, if national redistribution is required, that due consideration is given to whether limited money is used for investing in fundamentals or subsiding transport.

Before we start off down the "other peoples money" route, I think it's worth remembering that residents of Liverpool and elsewhere pay the full range of taxation, therefore national taxation is their, not "someone elses" money.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

It is a general observation of mine that when people talk about "twisted right wing economic philosophy" they often mean "mainstream economics"

Now you can decide to take that in two completely different ways depending upon political persuasion :)

But while it is true that there is a lot in economics, macroeconomics especially that is a bit... sketchy... simple stuff like opportunity cost, scarcity, comparative advantage, externalities, deadweigh loss, supply and demand are imo not too far off physical laws and so arguments like @Magdalia 's maybe ought to be best expressed directly in those terms. It then becomes clearer whether your argument is with the building blocks of basic microeconomics (in which case imo it can be disregarded but others of twisted left wing economic philosophy may disagree) or if it's with how he fits the known facts within these frameworks and if he's missing or twisting something. I certainly find his arguments convincing but that shouldn't come as a surprise ;)

(I do wish he'd stop claiming that net contribution to the exchequer is the same thing as net contribution to the economy though)

It's a strange situation in a highly centralised country where one side of an imaginary line is deemed a net contributor to the exchequer and therefore worthy of expenditure while down the road an area is in the scrounging regions and therefore not.

A more usual interpretation of economics would be that the state should aim to smooth out those disparities through expenditure. Pity poor Cambridge which is stuck slap-bang on top of this imaginary boundary.

It's even more unusual to characterise those seeking affordable public transport, including those working and contributing to the economy as "leeching".

Coming back to my OP, alleviating the cost of living crisis is specifically about helping people in the bottom to middle income spectrum whether they are in a position to work or not, wherever they are in the country. For this reason, an across the board scheme available to all, is far more effective than our patchwork of railcards with a big gap in the middle. This has been recognised with the £2 bus fare scheme. It needs to be recognised with railway fares.

Also given the fact that according to our best guestimations the overall cost of such a railcard would be absorbed by organic reductions in subsidy in less than a year, suggests that it shouldn't be seen as unaffordable.

Transport fares are one of those levers where Government has the ability to make an impact.

Also this thread isn't just about railcards - I was interested in the RMT's proposal to tax ROSCO's as a way for increasing revenue. My personal view would be to run down the ROSCO system and move over to a state owned common pool of rolling stock, however that might take some time.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Another thing that occurred to me was that of all the countries and regions of the UK, Northern Ireland has the lowest expenditure on transport of anywhere. Perhaps a tie-in with NIR could be arranged so that UK residents could enjoy the benefits of a UK wide railcard
 
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