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The cost of living agenda - how should the railway contribute ?

What approach should the PM take in making passenger rail contribute to the cost of living agenda

  • Ongoing fares freeze/cap

    Votes: 30 15.9%
  • Nationwide Network Card/National Railcard

    Votes: 53 28.0%
  • Abolish peak fares

    Votes: 49 25.9%
  • Tax/salary incentive

    Votes: 8 4.2%
  • Better fares competition on the railway

    Votes: 12 6.3%
  • Other

    Votes: 12 6.3%
  • Nothing - everything's honky-dory

    Votes: 20 10.6%
  • Income based railcard/discount

    Votes: 5 2.6%

  • Total voters
    189

Magdalia

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@Bald Rick estimated the cost of a national railcard to be around £300m a year (including long distance), and given his position in the industry, I suspect his estimation is as good as you'll get.
Indeed, but it pushes the £4.2bn of support to train operators up to £4.5bn, and leaves us another 10% further away from getting back to the level of support of 5 years ago. That's why I won't support it.

£300m is the sort of cost that can be absorbed without having a major effect on overall taxation.
It is £300m that can be spent far more effectively elsewhere.

We have backlogs of maintenance and renewals.

As a taxpayer and farepayer I'd rather pay a little bit more tax for a rail service that is more accessible to people in terms of fares.
For example, if, as taxpayers and farepayers, we are paying £300m more for rail, then it should go on maintenance and renewals, not a National Railcard.

If though, we are serious about cost of living, you have to ask what the number one issue people have and that's got to be housing, we don't have enough, and its costs are often too high, for the average person on a low wage
For addressing the cost of living, housing, energy and food are all way ahead of a National Railcard, which is going to make gnat's crotchet difference to cost of living in both perception and reality.
 
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eldomtom2

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Indeed. There's no point going anywhere for a quid if you can't actually get there because the trains are up the spout. Germany's network is in a parlour state to the point it has become an international embarrassment.
The opposite to this argument, which I have no doubt many of the general public will make, is "there's no point in the railways being well maintained if I can't afford to ride them".
 

AM9

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As a taxpayer and farepayer I'd rather pay a little bit more tax for a rail service that is more accessible to people in terms of fares.
I'm sure you would be happy to pay a very small increase in tax (along with everybody else) so that you get cheaper rail travel.bearing in mind the proportion of domestic journeys that are made using non-rail modes nationally.
 
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martin butler

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Indeed, but it pushes the £4.2bn of support to train operators up to £4.5bn, and leaves us another 10% further away from getting back to the level of support of 5 years ago. That's why I won't support it.


It is £300m that can be spent far more effectively elsewhere.


For example, if, as taxpayers and farepayers, we are paying £300m more for rail, then it should go on maintenance and renewals, not a National Railcard.


For addressing the cost of living, housing, energy and food are all way ahead of a National Railcard, which is going to make gnat's crotchet difference to cost of living in both perception and reality.
I don't think people with no disposable income are going to be taking a train anywhere, unless they have no choice but too,
 

AlterEgo

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For example, if, as taxpayers and farepayers, we are paying £300m more for rail, then it should go on maintenance and renewals, not a National Railcard.
Indeed. And that is not a vast amount but it is an amount which could make a material difference to performance. I'd still prefer to pay tax to make up any shortfall, but we are where we are.
 
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yorksrob

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Indeed, but it pushes the £4.2bn of support to train operators up to £4.5bn, and leaves us another 10% further away from getting back to the level of support of 5 years ago. That's why I won't support it.


It is £300m that can be spent far more effectively elsewhere.


For example, if, as taxpayers and farepayers, we are paying £300m more for rail, then it should go on maintenance and renewals, not a National Railcard.


For addressing the cost of living, housing, energy and food are all way ahead of a National Railcard, which is going to make gnat's crotchet difference to cost of living in both perception and reality.

I'm afraid I disagree with you on all points.

I'm not sure why the subsidy level of five years ago is such a magical marker point. If that level of subsidy is so totemic for a national railcard, how come one wasn't introduced then, when subsidy was at that level ?

The reality is that the Establishment in London doesn't believe in the value of public transport (outside of their great capital) and if there were no subsidy at all, they would come up with another excuse not to introduce one. They can't see over the water to the many countries that do provide such discount schemes to their citizens and insist on squeezing every last drop out of passengers that they can get away with.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Indeed. And that is not a vast amount but it is an amount which could make a material difference to performance. I'd still prefer to pay tax to make up any shortfall, but we are where we are.

And as if not having a national railcard wasn't bad enough, they want to abolish off peak fares as well, making the countries railway system even more expensive and difficult to use than it already is.

It begs the question, who exactly is the railway being run for, if not ordinary working age, working class citizens.
 

Magdalia

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I'm afraid I disagree with you on all points.

I'm not sure why the subsidy level of five years ago is such a magical marker point. If that level of subsidy is so totemic for a national railcard, how come one wasn't introduced then, when subsidy was at that level ?

The reality is that the Establishment in London doesn't believe in the value of public transport (outside of their great capital) and if there were no subsidy at all, they would come up with another excuse not to introduce one. They can't see over the water to the many countries that do provide such discount schemes to their citizens and insist on squeezing every last drop out of passengers that they can get away with.
The railway has a huge subsidy, and it was already huge 5 years ago. Furthermore, most operator subsidy goes to areas outside London. A National Railcard wasn't introduced 5 years ago because it was not a good use of taxpayers money then, and it is an even worse use now.

It may have escaped your attention, but the country as a whole has a "cost of governing crisis". Its financial position has worsened significantly in those 5 years, it has run up huge amounts of new debt, with the increased cost of the railway making a contribution to that. Since 2022, interest costs on that debt have been amplified by higher interest rates. On top of that, there are new pressures for spending, notably on defence, where Ukraine and Iran have demonstrated how poorly equipped the country is to fight a 21st century war.

I don't regard the subsidy of five years ago as a magical marker point, but as a minimum requirement to get back to, because the country has many more important things to do with that money. Get there and it won't be time to stop, but time to push on to close the gap between revenue and costs even further.

The "Establishment in London" provides huge support to transport outside London. There is the Trans Pennine Route Upgrade, and money for metro mayors mainly goes to the north of England. Furthermore, Northern as a train operator received a subsidy of 26.6p per passenger km in 2024/25, that's more than £10 for a typical 25 miles/40km journey. Passengers in the north already have their discount in the form of heavily subsidised fares.

It begs the question, who exactly is the railway being run for, if not ordinary working age, working class citizens.
The railway is being run for everyone. It supports economic activity from which tax revenue is generated, and then spent according to the government's priorities. The devolution agenda is shifting those priorities, and that's likely to favour well targeted local initiatives, "delivering growth in every postcode", not poorly targeted National schemes.
 

yorksrob

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The railway has a huge subsidy, and it was already huge 5 years ago. Furthermore, most operator subsidy goes to areas outside London. A National Railcard wasn't introduced 5 years ago because it was not a good use of taxpayers money then, and it is an even worse use now.

It may have escaped your attention, but the country as a whole has a "cost of governing crisis". Its financial position has worsened significantly in those 5 years, it has run up huge amounts of new debt, with the increased cost of the railway making a contribution to that. Since 2022, interest costs on that debt have been amplified by higher interest rates. On top of that, there are new pressures for spending, notably on defence, where Ukraine and Iran have demonstrated how poorly equipped the country is to fight a 21st century war.

I don't regard the subsidy of five years ago as a magical marker point, but as a minimum requirement to get back to, because the country has many more important things to do with that money. Get there and it won't be time to stop, but time to push on to close the gap between revenue and costs even further.

The "Establishment in London" provides huge support to transport outside London. There is the Trans Pennine Route Upgrade, and money for metro mayors mainly goes to the north of England. Furthermore, Northern as a train operator received a subsidy of 26.6p per passenger km in 2024/25, that's more than £10 for a typical 25 miles/40km journey. Passengers in the north already have their discount in the form of heavily subsidised fares.


The railway is being run for everyone. It supports economic activity from which tax revenue is generated, and then spent according to the government's priorities. The devolution agenda is shifting those priorities, and that's likely to favour well targeted local initiatives, "delivering growth in every postcode", not poorly targeted National schemes.

One only has to look at the table below published by the House of Commons library showing identifiable expenditure on transport by region (24/25) to see the real disparity:


London had £11,747m expenditure.
South East England gets £5,995m
Yorks and the Humber had £2,768m
NE England £1,468.

The subsidy to the regional railway ought to be seen in this context.

Passengers in the regions aren't being gifted transport riches beyond the dreams of avarice, much as some on here would like to make out.

A national railcard would go a small way towards rectifying this fairly grotesque disparity and directly assist travellers in their pockets.
 
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Bald Rick

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A national railcard would go a small way towards rectifying this fairly grotesque disparity and directly assist travellers in their pockets.

As stated before, a small way to a very small proportion of the population, many of whom, frankly, don’t need the help.

Surely it’s better to provide help to people in that need that help the most? For example a ‘Universal Credit Railcard’ perhaps at nil cost but offering similar discounts to a Network Card?

That would surely be a better benefit to society than a national railcard which would provide most benefit to that niche element of scoiety that is people aged 30-60 who like to spend a fair slice of their disposable income by travelling off peak by train on their own a lot.
 

yorksrob

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As stated before, a small way to a very small proportion of the population, many of whom, frankly, don’t need the help.

Surely it’s better to provide help to people in that need that help the most? For example a ‘Universal Credit Railcard’ perhaps at nil cost but offering similar discounts to a Network Card?

That would surely be a better benefit to society than a national railcard which would provide most benefit to that niche element of scoiety that is people aged 30-60 who like to spend a fair slice of their disposable income by travelling off peak by train on their own a lot.

Of course you need that direct assistance to those most in need. That's why I roll my eyes when the right wing go on about dismantling the benefits system.

However, as I've mentioned on here, cost of living affects more than the very poorest in society, right up to the "just about managing" and beyond. Support should also assist these people as well. Train fares are a good way of ensuring that a broader range of households get some relief.

Ultimately if people aged 30-60 travelling off peak on their own, outside the South East are so niche, then its difficult to justify singling them out to be not eligible for a railcard discount.
 

Magdalia

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One only has to look at the table below published by the House of Commons library showing identifiable expenditure on transport by region (24/25) to see the real disparity:

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cdp-2025-0170/
London had £39,981m expenditure.
South East England gets £5,995m
Yorks and the Humber had £2,768m
NE England £1,468.
You have quoted the total England figure for London, which should read £11747m.

These are expenditure totals, but bear in mind that London (8.8m) and the South East (9.3m) each have more population than Yorkshire and the Humber (5.5m) and North East (2.6m) combined. (i'm quoting the 2021 census numbers here)

Per capita the numbers would be:

London £1.33
South East England £0.64
Yorks and the Humber £0.50
NE England £0.56

And that's all transport, not just the operating part of the railway. A significant part will be HS2, which is mostly in London and the South East.

A long while ago I knew the person in charge of producing the regional Gross Value Added data: I'd take regional splits with a very large pinch of salt. They were mainly produced to meet a European Union requirement, not for use in policy.

Passengers in the regions aren't being gifted transport riches beyond the dreams of avarice, much as some on here would like to make out.
A subsidy of £10 for a 25 mile journey is very generous!

A national railcard would go a small way towards rectifying this fairly grotesque disparity and directly assist travellers in their pockets.
It isn't a grotesque disparity, because economic activity and tax revenue generated in London and the South East would collapse without it. What would be grotesque would be the cuts in public expenditure that would follow if economic activity and tax revenue generated in London and the South East collapsed.
 

yorksrob

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You have quoted the total England figure for London, which should read £11747m.

These are expenditure totals, but bear in mind that London (8.8m) and the South East (9.3m) each have more population than Yorkshire and the Humber (5.5m) and North East (2.6m) combined. (i'm quoting the 2021 census numbers here)

Per capita the numbers would be:

London £1.33
South East England £0.64
Yorks and the Humber £0.50
NE England £0.56

And that's all transport, not just the operating part of the railway. A significant part will be HS2, which is mostly in London and the South East.

A long while ago I knew the person in charge of producing the regional Gross Value Added data: I'd take regional splits with a very large pinch of salt. They were mainly produced to meet a European Union requirement, not for use in policy.


A subsidy of £10 for a 25 mile journey is very generous!


It isn't a grotesque disparity, because economic activity and tax revenue generated in London and the South East would collapse without it. What would be grotesque would be the cuts in public expenditure that would follow if economic activity and tax revenue generated in London and the South East collapsed.

Apologies - I've amended the figure in my quotation.

However even you yourself quote figures that show that a person in London has over twice as much spent on them for transport purposes than those of us in the North.

The ahem "generous" passenger subsidy per mile needs to be considered in this context.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Read the rest of this thread to see why that’s not the case!


I've read all of this thread (I started it afterall) and there's nothing contradicting the de facto reality that this teeny-weeny niche market is being adversely treated.
 
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coppercapped

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The railway has a huge subsidy, and it was already huge 5 years ago. Furthermore, most operator subsidy goes to areas outside London. A National Railcard wasn't introduced 5 years ago because it was not a good use of taxpayers money then, and it is an even worse use now.

It may have escaped your attention, but the country as a whole has a "cost of governing crisis". Its financial position has worsened significantly in those 5 years, it has run up huge amounts of new debt, with the increased cost of the railway making a contribution to that. Since 2022, interest costs on that debt have been amplified by higher interest rates. On top of that, there are new pressures for spending, notably on defence, where Ukraine and Iran have demonstrated how poorly equipped the country is to fight a 21st century war.

I don't regard the subsidy of five years ago as a magical marker point, but as a minimum requirement to get back to, because the country has many more important things to do with that money. Get there and it won't be time to stop, but time to push on to close the gap between revenue and costs even further.

The "Establishment in London" provides huge support to transport outside London. There is the Trans Pennine Route Upgrade, and money for metro mayors mainly goes to the north of England. Furthermore, Northern as a train operator received a subsidy of 26.6p per passenger km in 2024/25, that's more than £10 for a typical 25 miles/40km journey. Passengers in the north already have their discount in the form of heavily subsidised fares.


The railway is being run for everyone. It supports economic activity from which tax revenue is generated, and then spent according to the government's priorities. The devolution agenda is shifting those priorities, and that's likely to favour well targeted local initiatives, "delivering growth in every postcode", not poorly targeted National schemes.
I support this argument completely.

Railways offer a 'service to the public', as do bus and coach companies, taxis, car hire firms, airlines and ferries and, in fact, any retail business. For these to succeed revenue has to exceed the costs. The concept of railway passenger services being a 'public service' as some in this thread suggest is a comparatively recent development in the great scheme of things and implies that the service is to be offered below cost. In fact this topic was broached in the section of the 'Beeching Report' dealing with suburban services (page 22) where it was suggested that in some circumstances a subsidy for the railways was the better value for the country:

Therefore, if the services are to be regarded as essential, the municipalities concerned must join with the railways and bus interests to evolve a co-ordinated system of services, with due regard to the economics of both forms of transport. It is, for example, illogical to operate subsidised municipal bus services in competition with unprofitable railway services, without any attempt to co-ordinate them. If, on the other hand, the services are not regarded as essential and co-ordination is not found possible, the sound commercial course is for the railways to risk pricing themselves out of the business and then, if necessary, close the services.
The right solution is most likely to be found by 'Total Social Benefit Studies' of the kind which are now being explored by the Ministry of Transport and British Railways jointly. In cases of the type under consideration it may be cheaper to subsidise the railways than to bear the other cost burdens which will arise if they are closed. If this happens, however, there should be no feeling that the railways are being propped up by such a subsidy because of a commercial failure.

So, targeted subsidies, not across the board fares reduction. Nota bene that the 'Total Social Benefit Studies' were instigated by that devilish duo of Ernest Marples and Richard Beeching. How progressive! Well I never!
One only has to look at the table below published by the House of Commons library showing identifiable expenditure on transport by region (24/25) to see the real disparity:


London had £39,981m expenditure.
South East England gets £5,995m
Yorks and the Humber had £2,768m
NE England £1,468.

The subsidy to the regional railway ought to be seen in this context.

Passengers in the regions aren't being gifted transport riches beyond the dreams of avarice, much as some on here would like to make out.

A national railcard would go a small way towards rectifying this fairly grotesque disparity and directly assist travellers in their pockets.
These results are because tax revenues raised in London, the South East and the East of England dwarf those in the rest of the country. A quick search shows that 10 years ago (newer figures may be available but I can't be a***d to spend more time looking) the Office for National Statistics showed that London benefited from a relatively high level of public spending — £12,686 per person, above the UK-wide average of £11,579 — but this was dwarfed by the extra tax revenues generated by the capital. Revenues in London are estimated to have been £15,756 per person, generating a surplus of £3,070 per head. This equates to 7 per cent of the gross value added created by the London economy in 2015.

Also the South East and the East of England also raised more in taxes than they received in spending in 2015-16 — by £1,667 and £242 per person respectively.

All other parts of the UK received more in public spending than they generated in tax revenues (my emphasis). The numbers have changed in the ensuing 10 years but the split remains.

I would also add that 'fairness' in this context seems to refer only to the distribution of money with no thought being given to its generation. However, earning money is much, much harder than simply distributing it.

In order to be 'fair' to all, it would be much better if the rest of the country generated more income and therefore be more in control of its fortunes than to continue to blame 'London' and 'the Establishment' for all its woes. There is absolutely no reason why it cannot do so - bright people and nice places to live are not exclusive to the South East of England. London and the South East could then spend more on infrastructure which it needs - the tax surplus could build a new Crossrail every year...

So why not concentrate your frustrations on positive things and contribute to ways of generating more income per head in those parts of the country London cannot reach? Start a company and employ people would be one suggestion.
 

yorksrob

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I support this argument completely.

Railways offer a 'service to the public', as do bus and coach companies, taxis, car hire firms, airlines and ferries and, in fact, any retail business. For these to succeed revenue has to exceed the costs. The concept of railway passenger services being a 'public service' as some in this thread suggest is a comparatively recent development in the great scheme of things and implies that the service is to be offered below cost. In fact this topic was broached in the section of the 'Beeching Report' dealing with suburban services (page 22) where it was suggested that in some circumstances a subsidy for the railways was the better value for the country:



So, targeted subsidies, not across the board fares reduction. Nota bene that the 'Total Social Benefit Studies' were instigated by that devilish duo of Ernest Marples and Richard Beeching. How progressive! Well I never!

These results are because tax revenues raised in London, the South East and the East of England dwarf those in the rest of the country. A quick search shows that 10 years ago (newer figures may be available but I can't be a***d to spend more time looking) the Office for National Statistics showed that London benefited from a relatively high level of public spending — £12,686 per person, above the UK-wide average of £11,579 — but this was dwarfed by the extra tax revenues generated by the capital. Revenues in London are estimated to have been £15,756 per person, generating a surplus of £3,070 per head. This equates to 7 per cent of the gross value added created by the London economy in 2015.

Also the South East and the East of England also raised more in taxes than they received in spending in 2015-16 — by £1,667 and £242 per person respectively.

All other parts of the UK received more in public spending than they generated in tax revenues (my emphasis). The numbers have changed in the ensuing 10 years but the split remains.

I would also add that 'fairness' in this context seems to refer only to the distribution of money with no thought being given to its generation. However, earning money is much, much harder than simply distributing it.

In order to be 'fair' to all, it would be much better if the rest of the country generated more income and therefore be more in control of its fortunes than to continue to blame 'London' and 'the Establishment' for all its woes. There is absolutely no reason why it cannot do so - bright people and nice places to live are not exclusive to the South East of England. London and the South East could then spend more on infrastructure which it needs - the tax surplus could build a new Crossrail every year...

So why not concentrate your frustrations on positive things and contribute to ways of generating more income per head in those parts of the country London cannot reach? Start a company and employ people would be one suggestion.

It seems potentially self-reinforcing.

The lack of expenditure outside of the SE is probably a contributing factor to the disparity in wealth generation.

The TRU is going some way to alleviate this, but it will not work as well as it could if fares are a barrier.

Don't get me wrong I understand that London has its needs and I'm not arguing for a complete levelling of transport expenditure. It is however, ludicrous to argue against having a National railcard on the basis of supposedly "generous" service subsidies when transport expenditure per person is less than half of that in London.

BTW, if you're offering to put up the capital, I can open my station pub ;)
 

Magdalia

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However even you yourself quote figures that show that a person in London has over twice as much spent on them for transport purposes than those of us in the North.

The ahem "generous" passenger subsidy per mile needs to be considered in this context.
More importantly, the figures need to be considered in the overall context of regional UK public finances, see here:


1.Main points​

  • Both London and the South East had a net fiscal surplus in the financial year ending (FYE) 2023; all other UK countries and regions had a net fiscal deficit.

People traveling by train in London and the South East go to work, they and their employers pay taxes, so much there are funds left over to pay towards the deficits in the rest of the UK. The money spent on transport in London and the South East benefits all of the UK not just those living there. And that includes you.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

These results are because tax revenues raised in London, the South East and the East of England dwarf those in the rest of the country. A quick search shows that 10 years ago (newer figures may be available but I can't be a***d to spend more time looking) the Office for National Statistics showed that London benefited from a relatively high level of public spending — £12,686 per person, above the UK-wide average of £11,579 — but this was dwarfed by the extra tax revenues generated by the capital. Revenues in London are estimated to have been £15,756 per person, generating a surplus of £3,070 per head. This equates to 7 per cent of the gross value added created by the London economy in 2015.
I was sufficiently a***d to find the 2023 figures! The picture is still broadly the same.
 

coppercapped

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It seems potentially self-reinforcing.

The lack of expenditure outside of the SE is probably a contributing factor to the disparity in wealth generation.
No. 'The North'[1] was once much richer because of the efforts of its people - there was NO central expenditure to get it going in the first place. It then lost the plot as it didn't change fast enough to counteract changes in the markets for its traditional products.

London also declined with a falling population until the late 1980s when it reinvented itself.

There is no reason on the planet why other towns and cities cannot do the same. ‘The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, / But in ourselves’.

[1] A portmanteau word for everywhere outside London, m'Lud...
The TRU is going some way to alleviate this, but it will not work as well as it could if fares are a barrier.

Don't get me wrong I understand that London has its needs and I'm not arguing for a complete levelling of transport expenditure. It is however, ludicrous to argue against having a National railcard on the basis of supposedly "generous" service subsidies when transport expenditure per person is less than half of that in London.

BTW, if you're offering to put up the capital, I can open my station pub ;)
No, you're the one complaining. Spend your time locating a site, working out a business plan and raising the capital you need instead of posting so often on RailUKforums. You will find making money much, much harder than spending other people's...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

More importantly, the figures need to be considered in the overall context of regional UK public finances, see here:




People traveling by train in London and the South East go to work, they and their employers pay taxes, so much there are funds left over to pay towards the deficits in the rest of the UK. The money spent on transport in London and the South East benefits all of the UK not just those living there. And that includes you.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==


I was sufficiently a***d to find the 2023 figures! The picture is still broadly the same.
Thank you!
 

yorksrob

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No. 'The North'[1] was once much richer because of the efforts of its people - there was NO central expenditure to get it going in the first place. It then lost the plot as it didn't change fast enough to counteract changes in the markets for its traditional products.

London also declined with a falling population until the late 1980s when it reinvented itself.

There is no reason on the planet why other towns and cities cannot do the same. ‘The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, / But in ourselves’.

[1] A portmanteau word for everywhere outside London, m'Lud...

No, you're the one complaining. Spend your time locating a site, working out a business plan and raising the capital you need instead of posting so often on RailUKforums. You will find making money much, much harder than spending other people's...

I've no doubt everyone would love me to spend less time posting on RUK, however as a sole wage earner I can assure you that I already find making money and keeping a roof over my head plenty hard enough.

The North is full factories and businesses making and providing things that people need. A national railcard like our peer group countries in Europe and the Antipodes enjoy really shouldn't be too much to ask.
 

Magdalia

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It seems potentially self-reinforcing.
It isn't.

Most people misunderstand what happened in London and the South East. When I first worked in London in the early 1980s it was a city with a declining economy and a declining population. What changed was technological innovation, particularly in financial services, and that was mainly in London, though Edinburgh benefitted a fair bit too. It was a 20 year wave lasting from the mid 1980s to the 2008 crash. London got financial support to deliver economic growth, and now the taxes generated are paying for services all over the UK.

But the period of rapid economic growth in London has now passed. The biggest technological innovations are elsewhere. I see it here in Cambridge, and "Manchesterism" shows that it can be done in the north too. Many places in the north now have a huge opportunity to find their niches where they can ride a wave of technological innovation. But that needs local policies that provide the transport that's needed to make sure that growth like that isn't strangled at birth, what it doesn't need is cack handed policies that waste money on soothing the feelings of a few people who think that life is unfair.

BTW, if you're offering to put up the capital, I can open my station pub
There you go again, wanting someone else to pay.
 

yorksrob

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It isn't.

Most people misunderstand what happened in London and the South East. When I first worked in London in the early 1980s it was a city with a declining economy and a declining population. What changed was technological innovation, particularly in financial services, and that was mainly in London, though Edinburgh benefitted a fair bit too. It was a 20 year wave lasting from the mid 1980s to the 2008 crash. London got financial support to deliver economic growth, and now the taxes generated are paying for services all over the UK.

But the period of rapid economic growth in London has now passed. The biggest technological innovations are elsewhere. I see it here in Cambridge, and "Manchesterism" shows that it can be done in the north too. Many places in the north now have a huge opportunity to find their niches where they can ride a wave of technological innovation. But that needs local policies that provide the transport that's needed to make sure that growth like that isn't strangled at birth, what it doesn't need is cack handed policies that waste money on soothing the feelings of a few people who think that life is unfair.


There you go again, wanting someone else to pay.

Don't you think that residents in Cambridge and Manchester would benefit from a national railcard ?

By your own admission, those places are already generating the wealth to pay for it.
 

Magdalia

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Don't you think that residents in Cambridge and Manchester would benefit from a national railcard ?
No I don't, it would be a very ineffective use of taxpayers money. What Cambridge needs is East West Rail and what Manchester needs is the Trans Pennine Route Upgrade.
 

yorksrob

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No I don't, it would be a very ineffective use of taxpayers money. What Cambridge needs is East West Rail and what Manchester needs is the Trans Pennine Route Upgrade.

They're getting those already.

Ordinary members of the public need their fares to be affordable. That's as true in wealth generating areas such as Manchester and Cambridge as it is everywhere else. The best new railway in the world won't fulfil its potential if its a rich man's toy.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Thinking about it, Cambridge is an interesting case. Residents can obtain a railcard discount towards London through the Network Railcard, but they can't towards the coast or Norwich for example.

Wouldn't it be better if the economic activity generated by the railcard could be directed to towns and cities elsewhere in East Anglia ?
 
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NCT

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Don't you think that residents in Cambridge and Manchester would benefit from a national railcard ?

By your own admission, those places are already generating the wealth to pay for it.

You don't get to assume automatic consent.
 

Magdalia

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Thinking about it, Cambridge is an interesting case. Residents can obtain a railcard discount towards London
But on Mondays to Fridays, only after 1000, and with a £13 minimum fare. The Network Railcard helps very few people to work or study in Cambridge, but it does raise revenue from lots of empty space on off peak trains, helping to bear down on the cost of the railway to the taxpayer.

Note that Greater Anglia is a net contributor to HM Treasury.

The best new railway in the world won't fulfil its potential if its a rich man's toy.
I watch the people getting on and off trains at Cambridge, and have done for half a century. At the start of that period the gin palace on the 1735 Liverpool Street-Cambridge was nearly all rich and nearly all men, but rail travel in the Cambridge area has not been like that for a very long time. This "rich man's toy" line is ridiculous nonsense.
 

Bald Rick

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Thinking about it, Cambridge is an interesting case. Residents can obtain a railcard discount towards London through the Network Railcard, but they can't towards the coast or Norwich for example.

They can (towards the coast and Norwich) if they are amongst most segments of society that have lower than average incomes (young, old, disabled etc) or are travelling with someone else. I argue that this should be extended to people travelling on their own, aged between 30 and 60, who have low incomes, ie in receipt of universal credit, to cover all part of society with low incomes.

But because capacity between Cambridge and ‘the coast’* and Norwich is limited, with no prospect of increasing it in the medium term, then selling many more additional tickets including to those who can already afford it, will worsen the travel experience for most people, and at the ssme time reduce the revenue for the railway from existing passengers.

*of course the easiest coast to get to from Cambridge is the Wash, and Kings Lynn is in the Network Card area, and there is plenty of off peak capacity on those trains.
 

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