1970-1974 WCML Weaver Jct -Glasgow electrification

[McRhu]

I believe there's another niche overhead line variant in the Glasgow area known as Brown Boveari that's also just used on one line - i think the Neilston Line?

I always took that to be MK II (albeit on the experimental masts). I may well be wrong!

 

[jfollows]

Probably 1S46 then worked 1M37 12:35 Edinburgh-Manchester Victoria and 1M55 was worked by 1S39 12:41 Liverpool-Edinburgh + 1P20 12:50 Manchester-Preston

As in Post 144, #144

 

[Merle Haggard]

With the mention of Carstairs; 1980 when the train called there travelling West Coast to Edinburgh around 1980 I heard the sound of a wheel-tapper under the coach.

Although I remember seeing C&W staff with tapping hammers over their shoulder in my youth some time before, this was the only time I experienced it actually being done.

 

[Tester]

A friend used the £5 return with me (I was on staff travel then). Although a day return, the conditions were generous, allowing overnight travel either way, so enabling a full day in Glasgow.

We went up on the first morning train and back overnight, with a Mk 1 compartment to ourselves. I took my motorbike (as you then could) and we rode out to Callander for a look around.

A fun day out!

 

[GraphitProjekt]

I always took that to be MK II (albeit on the experimental masts). I may well be wrong!

It seems like Mark II is on the Wemyss Bay/Gourock line. Glasgow is blessed with 2 highly niche OLE design types. Maybe more because of SICAT.

 

[d9009alycidon]

So here it is - my copy of OS Nock book "Electric Euston to Glasgow" View attachment 210362

I am lucky enough to have both this book and "Britain's New Railway" in my collection along with the full volumes of Modern Railways from the run up to full electrification.

 

[Falcon1200]

I remember that type of catenary on the Neilston line. It looks very much like the standard Deutsche Bahn catenary for non-high speed lines.

A Control colleague told me they were installed as an experiment - Obviously not a successful one, in BR's opinion!

 

[Solweytracker]

With the mention of Carstairs; 1980 when the train called there travelling West Coast to Edinburgh around 1980 I heard the sound of a wheel-tapper under the coach.

Although I remember seeing C&W staff with tapping hammers over their shoulder in my youth some time before, this was the only time I experienced it actually being done.

There was the sound of regular wheel-tapping of some trains at Carlisle station for some time later. The tapper had his own bothy in the south end of the island platform building. A memory is of me asking the regular lanky (no pun intended) strong Coomberland-accented gentleman for a train headcode one dark overnighter. 'Joost a minute', and he returned with a copy of the current Carlisle station Arrivals and Departures WTT booklet, which was given to me, passengers, ecs, sleepers, parcels and mails, liners and some other freight, everything. An uptodate full WTT was Manna from Heaven at the time. On another dark night I saw through the gloom a figure suddenly arrive, jump down behind the buffers at the end of the terminal Platform 2, have a pee and immediately climb back up. You can guess who. Dangerous job that was, as there was a fair amount of shunting going on as well.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

One of my favourite trains of the May 74 timetble was 1S81 20.38 Carlisle to Perth (the down Caledonian TPO) which despite now being booked for electric haulage by class 81/85 (to Mossend), formed of 90 mph stock, it was booked to be looped at Beattock to be passed by the (100 mph) 16.45 Euston to Glasgow. After calling at Carstairs it arrived Motherwell 12 minutes behind the latter train where it provided connections to Stirling, Perth etc

EDIT: see correction below (post 161)

 

[Magdalia]

One of my favourite trains of the May 74 timetble was 1S81 20.38 Carlisle to Perth

Prior to electrification 1S81 had been through train from Euston, departing at 1335.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Prior to electrification 1S81 had been through train from Euston, departing at 1335.

Apologies error in my previous post, it was the 18.05 from Birmingham which overtook it at Beattock, 1S81 connected out of the 16.45 at Carlisle.

 

[ac6000cw]

With the mention of Carstairs; 1980 when the train called there travelling West Coast to Edinburgh around 1980 I heard the sound of a wheel-tapper under the coach.

Although I remember seeing C&W staff with tapping hammers over their shoulder in my youth some time before, this was the only time I experienced it actually being done.

When I was a regular visitor to Birmingham New Street in the 1970s, I sometimes heard/saw it being done there - most often on the NE/NW-SW/SE trains that changed locos and/or reversed, as IIRC they were timetabled to spend 15 minutes in the platform so there was enough time to do it.

One of those long-gone 'sounds of the railway', like the hiss of escaping steam from steam heat carriages and the loud roaring noise from tread brakes being applied hard at speed on Mk 1 stock.

 

[Taunton]

With the mention of Carstairs; 1980 when the train called there travelling West Coast to Edinburgh around 1980 I heard the sound of a wheel-tapper under the coach.

Although I remember seeing C&W staff with tapping hammers over their shoulder in my youth some time before, this was the only time I experienced it actually being done.

I suspect this could have been Carlisle, because from May 1974 just about every WCML service I was on was tapped there while stopped, pretty much unknown anywhere else as you say. The main platforms suited one side Up, then the other side Down. Was there some suspicion of defective tyres from the high speed running?

 

[ac6000cw]

Was there some suspicion of defective tyres from the high speed running?

I guess that on tread-braked stock (e.g. Mk 1's and most Mk 2's), braking from higher speeds would have heated the wheels to higher temperatures, and more often (as average speeds were higher), which might well have increased the likelihood of loose or cracked tyres due to thermal cycling.

 

[edwin_m]

I guess that on tread-braked stock (e.g. Mk 1's and most Mk 2's), braking from higher speeds would have heated the wheels to higher temperatures, and more often (as average speeds were higher), which might well have increased the likelihood of loose or cracked tyres due to thermal cycling.

Also trains arriving at Carlisle from either direction have fairly recently been on long descending gradients.

 

[Taunton]

Although not commonly encountered elsewhere, my thought then was this was just the role one often heard of elsewhere "Will the Carriage & Wagon Inspector report to Platform 6", and just that instead of waiting for the command, which could be a broken window or a steam heat bag needing replacement (obviously not on the WCML now), Carlisle was more proactive, and filled the time in by tapping the wheels (and giving everything else the once over whilst doing so).

Was the rheostatic brake on the electric locos not sufficient to hold them on the descents?

 

[hexagon789]

Was the rheostatic brake on the electric locos not sufficient to hold them on the descents?

In general such brakes on British locomotives are only used to supplant the friction brake on the loco, the brakes on the carriages apply as usual.

Certainly on 86, 87, 90, 91 you cannot control the rheostatic brake separately - it applies automatically as part of a normal brake application and is blended in over the locomotive's friction brake, reducing brake block wear.

On the 85s, the original rheostatic brake could be controlled separately, but was a source of problems as a result, so it was isolated and then later re-enabled after modifications.

The only locos I'm aware of that have been designed with powerful rheostatic brakes for inclines are the 76/77s for Woodhead, which also had regenerative braking. On those the driver controlled everything manually, including the degree of dynamic braking by adjusting the resistances.

 

[Harpo]

Was the rheostatic brake on the electric locos not sufficient to hold them on the descents?

You’d get very little effect from braking a train with the loco only brake. Most locos are under-braked, hence light loco engine speed limits.

As an aside, I’ll confess that I don’t know if an ACL uses air or rheo on the loco only brake but suspect the answer is air?

Using the train brake on an 86 certainly braked the whole train in air or vacuum and the loco in rheo down to about 15mph(?) when it blended over to air.

 

[Merle Haggard]

/snip

The only locos I'm aware of that have been designed with powerful rheostatic brakes for inclines are the 76/77s for Woodhead, which also had regenerative braking. On those the driver controlled everything manually, including the degree of dynamic braking by adjusting the resistances.

I didn't realise the 76/77s had rheostatic braking as well.

In the early days at least, there was a controller (job!) to ensure that descending trains were always matched by ascending ones. Braking by regeneration only works if there's a load to power against, of course.

 

[hexagon789]

You’d get very little effect from braking a train with the loco only brake. Most locos are under-braked, hence light loco engine speed limits.

As an aside, I’ll confess that I don’t know if an ACL uses air or rheo on the loco only brake but suspect the answer is air?

Using the train brake on an 86 certainly braked the whole train in air or vacuum and the loco in rheo down to about 15mph(?) when it blended over to air.

Continental locomotives have very powerful rheostatic brakes, in Germany in particular it was and is possible to brake from 160km/h to low speed the whole train on the loco's rheostatic (and these days regenerative) brake within their very tight classic line braking distances.

In the UK, when it has been provided the rheostatic brake seems to simply be used as a means to reduce locomotive brake wear than train friction brake wear.

I didn't realise the 76/77s had rheostatic braking as well

The regenerative brake was only usable within a certain speed range, outwith that the rheostatic brake was used.

 

[AndrewE]

In the early days at least, there was a controller (job!) to ensure that descending trains were always matched by ascending ones.

I worked with a chap whose son had emigrated to Australia and worked on their railways. The son was amazed that we had a Control devoted to regulating trains to make the Passenger timetable work as well as possible, as theirs was almost entirely to regulate trains starting from a stand to control the electric power demand.

Braking by regeneration only works if there's a load to power against, of course.

Wouldn't that be the grid (voltage?) Probably only works if the whole supply system is designed to allow it to be pushed backwards...

 

[Merle Haggard]

I worked with a chap whose son had emigrated to Australia and worked on their railways. The son was amazed that we had a Control devoted to regulating trains to make the Passenger timetable work as well as possible, as theirs was almost entirely to regulate trains starting from a stand to control the electric power demand.

Wouldn't that be the grid (voltage?) Probably only works if the whole supply system is designed to allow it to be pushed backwards...

The Manchester-Sheffield-Wath electrification was 1500v DC; using regenerated current was much easier than AC and didn't involve returning to the grid.

1500v DC was the British standard at the time the line was planned.

 

[matchmaker]

OK. Though I don't think they, or much else, was converted to dual brake, it was a challenge to fit both sets of gear, plus the complex rigging to the blocks, into the underframe. St Rollox certainly did one, it was a Mk1 dual heat BCK, which when dual braked gave one of everything, class, van, brake and heat, and was stationed at Carstairs from 1974 just in case one of the portioned workings turned up missing a key vehicle for the continuation. Sometimes it was inside the old loco shed, sometimes outside in front of it. Must have been an interesting project for both drawing office and fitters.

I wonder if it was either part of the 1974 plan, or a rush job after some early days events, and how often it was needed.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Yesterday at 12:28 ==

OK. Though I don't think they, or much else, was converted to dual brake, it was a challenge to fit both sets of gear, plus the complex rigging to the blocks, into the underframe. St Rollox certainly did one, it was a Mk1 dual heat BCK, which when dual braked gave one of everything, class, van, brake and heat, and was stationed at Carstairs from 1974 just in case one of the portioned workings turned up missing a key vehicle for the continuation. Sometimes it was inside the old loco shed, sometimes outside in front of it. Must have been an interesting project for both drawing office and fitters.

I wonder if it was either part of the 1974 plan, or a rush job after some early days events, and how often it was needed.

Mk 1s with dual braking and dual heating were common. Mk2s were I understand difficult to dual brake.

 

[D6130]

Mk 1s with dual braking and dual heating were common. Mk2s were I understand difficult to dual brake.

Was that anything to do with the fact that Mark 1 coaches had heavy steel underframes, which could support the additional equipment required for dual-braking....whereas the later Mark 2s had lighter monocoque construction? Vacuum-brake cylinders - of which you need two on a bogie vehicle - are particularly bulky and heavy.

 

[GraphitProjekt]

Did the WCML North scheme utilise Motherwell feeder station? Because I think it was actually installed as part of the 1960 Glasgow South work. But at some point it was replaced with Gowkthrapple feeder. Did this happen under WCML North?

 

[Falcon1200]

One of my favourite trains of the May 74 timetble was 1S81 20.38 Carlisle to Perth (the down Caledonian TPO)

One of my favourite trains too, in the late 1970s/early 1980s, then booked 2050 from Carlisle, formed of 2 Postal vehicles and 2 passenger coaches - Except on Saturdays when it was the 2 passenger coaches only! Also usually a Type 2 diesel from Mossend Yard onwards.

 

[hexagon789]

One of my favourite trains too, in the late 1970s/early 1980s, then booked 2050 from Carlisle, formed of 2 Postal vehicles and 2 passenger coaches - Except on Saturdays when it was the 2 passenger coaches only! Also usually a Type 2 diesel from Mossend Yard onwards.

1980 PTM listing for the train, hopefully of some interest:

 

[Falcon1200]

Interesting, thanks!

 

[hexagon789]

1974 equivalent entry:

 

[MadMac]

Did the WCML North scheme utilise Motherwell feeder station? Because I think it was actually installed as part of the 1960 Glasgow South work. But at some point it was replaced with Gowkthrapple feeder. Did this happen under WCML North?

The Motherwell feeder also fed the North electrics via a cable to the Sunnyside area. The need to replace the cable was a factor in the decision to electrify Mossend-Gartsherrie.