Hereford - Paddington query

[s3an]

I wonder if someone could clarify something odd I've found when looking at fares and routes on FGW's booking site.

I want to go Hereford to Paddington and return on 15th September. 11.35 from Hereford and 19.15 return would seem to be the most suitable. Two off peaks are shown at £48 and £74. The £48 is for routes passing through Evesham, but the 11.35 and 19.15 don't go through Evesham. If I select those times and click through the system seems willing to sell me the tickets at £48 on trains that don't go through Evesham, but with a via Evesham restriction.

I will need to do this journey once a week for 2-3 months and the £48 price would be good, so is this valid?

thanks

Sean

 

[Flamingo]

Wouldn't have thought so.

Just as an aside, if you are planning on catching the 1915, always make a seat reservation. It's one of the busiest trains we have.

 

[animationmilo]

I wonder if someone could clarify something odd I've found when looking at fares and routes on FGW's booking site.

I want to go Hereford to Paddington and return on 15th September. 11.35 from Hereford and 19.15 return would seem to be the most suitable. Two off peaks are shown at £48 and £74. The £48 is for routes passing through Evesham, but the 11.35 and 19.15 don't go through Evesham. If I select those times and click through the system seems willing to sell me the tickets at £48 on trains that don't go through Evesham, but with a via Evesham restriction.

I will need to do this journey once a week for 2-3 months and the £48 price would be good, so is this valid?

thanks

Sean

Do you have any rail-cards?
There is also a 19:22 Direct to Hereford from Paddington
I looked at the prices and there is a £42 off-peak return via EVESHAM only

 

[s3an]

Wouldn't have thought so.

Just as an aside, if you are planning on catching the 1915, always make a seat reservation. It's one of the busiest trains we have.

Why would the FGW system allow me to buy tickets and print an itinery to go with the tickets, showing change at Newport and that route be invalid?

Is it worth me booking tickets and printing the itinery showing the route to take with me?

thanks

Sean
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Do you have any rail-cards?
There is also a 19:22 Direct to Hereford from Paddington
I looked at the prices and there is a £42 off-peak return via EVESHAM only

The 19.22 is much slower.

Yes I saw the day return via Evesham, but it would mean leaving earlier as well as getting back later.

It just seems strange that I can buy tickets supposedly via Evesham, biut the route is shown as via Newport.

thanks

Sean

 

[MikeWh]

Why would the FGW system allow me to buy tickets and print an itinery to go with the tickets, showing change at Newport and that route be invalid?

Is it worth me booking tickets and printing the itinery showing the route to take with me?

thanks

Sean
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


The 19.22 is much slower.

Yes I saw the day return via Evesham, but it would mean leaving earlier as well as getting back later.

It just seems strange that I can buy tickets supposedly via Evesham, biut the route is shown as via Newport.

thanks

Sean

The advice on here is that if a site will sell tickets that you don't think are valid then book them, preferably with seat reservations, and take a copy of the itinerary with you. In theory the worst that can happen is that the tickets will be withdrawn by a guard/inspector and zero price replacement issued to allow you to travel. The tickets will be sent for investigation.

However, looking on a WebTIS based booking system (eg Southern) I am seeing a £59 Super off-peak Return valid on both trains you suggest. You might think the extra £11 is worth reducing the potential for hassle. The Southern site won't sell the £48 return on your trains so it is definitely dodgy.

In any event, definitely book seats on the 1915.

 

[Flamingo]

I've no idea why the site would sell it, but if I found an Evesham ticket on a South Wales train and there was no easement in place, I would be charging a change of route excess.

 

[SickyNicky]

I've no idea why the site would sell it, but if I found an Evesham ticket on a South Wales train and there was no easement in place, I would be charging a change of route excess.

Travel via Newport on a route EVESHAM ticket is currently allowed by easement 300368 whilst the Cotswold line engineering works are on.

Edit: removed irrelevant info about HFD ticket office.

 

[dzug2]

Travel via Newport on a route EVESHAM ticket is currently allowed by easement 300368 whilst the Cotswold line engineering works are on.

I am surprised that this is not more widely known. Certainly Hereford ticket office staff are aware of it and are offering route EVESHAM tickets when passengers are travelling via Newport.

But the engineering works are complete so the easement is obsolete

 

[SickyNicky]

But the engineering works are complete so the easement is obsolete

Ah - I thought it was still going on. But I'll bet that's why booking engines are offering tickets routed Evesham via Newport.

Edit: yes - they finished back in August. Shows how often I get out and about.

 

[sonic2009]

I've no idea why the site would sell it, but if I found an Evesham ticket on a South Wales train and there was no easement in place, I would be charging a change of route excess.

Flamingo which depot are you based at, you.seem to be everywhere i agree that a route evesham ticket.was.only valid.via Newport during the cotswolds works.

 

[SWTCommuter]

If you were prepared to put up with the longer journey times of the Evesham route, you could get the fare down to £32.70 by investing in a Network Railcard and splitting at Worcester.

 

[Wolfie]

I've no idea why the site would sell it, but if I found an Evesham ticket on a South Wales train and there was no easement in place, I would be charging a change of route excess.

Even if bought from your own (FGW's) website and with an itinerary from that website?

Were I the passenger I would then be complaining long and loud and if necessary taking "small claims" action in the County Court. The itinerary forms part of the contract made.....

Frankly a company attempting to financially penalise a passenger for its own incompetence (as other websites have been fixed) stinks and it deserves to be heavily clobbered!

 

[yorkie]

I would certainly not hand over any money, and there would be no obligation to (given the TOC has entered into a contract) but I don't think you could refuse a UPFN if the guard insisted on issuing one - and you would be successful in appealing it, I'm sure! Given that it would cost the TOC in fees from the debt collection company that deals with UPFNs, and it would cost the TOC time & money to handle the complaint, and cost time for the guard, it seems a pointless exercise to me. The best action if a guard wanted to highlight the issue to management would either be to make a note of it, or withdraw the ticket and issue a free replacement ticket, rather than issue a UPFN I'd have thought.

 

[Flamingo]

The arguement I would counter this with is;
1. The TOC entered into a contract to transport the customer via the route they paid - which is clearly stated on the ticket. Amy itinerary given requires a ticket valid for that route.
2. A UPFN would a. only be issued as far as the next station (except in exceptional circumstances) and b. A UPFN issued by FGW would not have any force on the non-FGW service from Newport. Also, we are under NO obligation to issue UPFN's - in fact most of the guys don't ever issue them, as they are time-consuming and unwieldy to issue, especially if in an area of poor phone reception.

This is a problem I run into frequently, where people have a ticket valid for one route, but are waving an itinerary given for the quicker route. I have no way of knowing what the conversation was, or what questions were asked about what ticket is held, or how the reservations were made. Therefore all I can go on is the ticket held and price paid.

If possible, I will suggest where the passenger needs to change to adhere to the route they paid for, if past that point or they refuse to change, then a change of route excess is applicable. If they refuse that, it becomes a revenue issue, and is dealt with as one.

If the passenger wishes to talk to Customer Services afterwards and put their case, that's fine, and if the passenger can demonstrate that the ticket was sold with the reservation, then Customer Services can deal with it.

In this case, I suspect that the easement that was in place over the summer on the Pad-Hereford route which allowed travel via Newport on Evesham tickets also allowed reservations to be made on the Newport trains, and the booking system has not been updated yet. However, that would not make the tickets valid, IMHO.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Flamingo which depot are you based at, you.seem to be everywhere i agree that a route evesham ticket.was.only valid.via Newport during the cotswolds works.

Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!

 

[Wolfie]

The arguement I would counter this with is;
1. The TOC entered into a contract to transport the customer via the route they paid - which is clearly stated on the ticket. Amy itinerary given requires a ticket valid for that route.
2. A UPFN would a. only be issued as far as the next station (except in exceptional circumstances) and b. A UPFN issued by FGW would not have any force on the non-FGW service from Newport. Also, we are under NO obligation to issue UPFN's - in fact most of the guys don't ever issue them, as they are time-consuming and unwieldy to issue, especially if in an area of poor phone reception.

This is a problem I run into frequently, where people have a ticket valid for one route, but are waving an itinerary given for the quicker route. I have no way of knowing what the conversation was, or what questions were asked about what ticket is held, or how the reservations were made. Therefore all I can go on is the ticket held and price paid.

If possible, I will suggest where the passenger needs to change to adhere to the route they paid for, if past that point or they refuse to change, then a change of route excess is applicable. If they refuse that, it becomes a revenue issue, and is dealt with as one.

If the passenger wishes to talk to Customer Services afterwards and put their case, that's fine, and if the passenger can demonstrate that the ticket was sold with the reservation, then Customer Services can deal with it.

In this case, I suspect that the easement that was in place over the summer on the Pad-Hereford route which allowed travel via Newport on Evesham tickets also allowed reservations to be made on the Newport trains, and the booking system has not been updated yet. However, that would not make the tickets valid, IMHO.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!

my bold

Flamingo

I understand your points and sympathise to some extent. However, how would an ordinary passenger know the material I have emboldened? Most passengers would, quite sensibly, assume that buying an FGW ticket from the FGW website with an FGW supplied itinerary should mean trouble-free travel. Why should a passenger have to be massively inconvenienced due to FGW's actions (or more accurately inaction) particularly given that other website operators HAVE made the appropriate updates?

 

[Flamingo]

They would be able to see the route on the ticket, and if buying it on-line, the different routes come up (as the OP said).

(Please, nobody say "nobody reads their ticket", or "infrequent travellers won't think to do that". That does not cut any ice with me.)

It's no different to them buying a child ticket, or a railcard discounted ticket for travel - the website allows them to do so, it does not mean that it is going to be valid in their case.

 

[SickyNicky]

I agree that a random itinery that doesn't appear to match the tickets cannot be taken at face value, but what if I were to produce a travel itinery with a ToD reference number printed on it that matches the reference number printed on the tickets?

In this case, I have clearly purchased tickets with reservations at the same time, either online or via telesales. Either way, I believe I have got a contract that says I can travel on that itinery with those tickets, regardless of the conditions on the ticket itself. I'm certainly not going to examine the route taken to make sure it passes some random station when I have a journey plan that tells me which trains I should be catching.

What would happen if I held an advance ticket in these circumstances? If the route is wrong due to a booking engine error, on what train would it actually be valid on? (yes, I know that can't happen in this case because there are no advances on the cotswold line, but the principle holds).

 

[Flamingo]

If everything adds up, then there is a chance of having a more sympathetic view taken, is all I can say. I wouldn't depend on it though, as it will be down to the individual, and knowing the trains and the individuals that might be working those trains I wouldn't like to categorically state it would be accepted. I am far from being the strictest of them, whatever might be said to the contrary!

Advances are a different kettle of fish, as you MUST travel on the booked train, so if that is the route it is sending you, then that's fine.

One funny thing about Advance tickets is that they sometimes send people on a circuitous route, eg Bristol Temple Meads to London via Bristol Parkway, not the direct BRI-PAD train, or Cardiff to Pad via Bath.

 

[All Line Rover]

They would be able to see the route on the ticket, and if buying it on-line, the different routes come up (as the OP said).

(Please, nobody say "nobody reads their ticket", or "infrequent travellers won't think to do that". That does not cut any ice with me.)

It's no different to them buying a child ticket, or a railcard discounted ticket for travel - the website allows them to do so, it does not mean that it is going to be valid in their case.

I disagree.

If a customer has an Anytime or Off-Peak ticket with reservations AND they have a booking confirmation e-mail to prove it, then even though their ticket might not be "technically" valid on that route, they should still be allowed to travel. They are fully entitled to use the ticket, and are fully entitled to use it as the TOC's website has recommended.

Issuing a UPFN is pointless, as the TOC would never win. If you're not happy with a ticket, just report it to a manager. (Though if you are a very, very nice Guard/TM who fully supports the passenger, you might decide to keep quiet about any unusual - but valid - tickets you come across. It's spoils the fun otherwise! )

 

[Flamingo]

There are occasions where a customer may have a reservation for a train or route, and a ticket that matches the reservation, but the ticket is not valid. I'm not saying how it is done, but it can be done, quite easily (even I have worked out how to do it, and I'm not the sharpest tool in the box!). Fraudsters are quite clever, and I'm afraid I am the suspicious type!

 

[All Line Rover]

There are occasions where a customer may have a reservation for a train or route, and a ticket that matches the reservation, but the ticket is not valid. I'm not saying how it is done, but it can be done, quite easily (even I have worked out how to do it, and I'm not the sharpest tool in the box!). Fraudsters are quite clever, and I'm afraid I am the suspicious type!

I know such a thing can be done, but if the customer has a booking confirmation e-mail with the reservations mentioned, it would be a waste of time issuing a UPFN! (Unless you are really suspicious and/or have seen this person before.) If necessary, it can be proved quite easily to a TOC that the reservations are legitimate.

 

[s3an]

I had to visit a customer this afternoon, so popped into a station on the way back.

Could I book the tickets, with reservations and matching itinerary printout?
'Yes' I was told.

'Do I pay £48 or £74?'
'£48 is cheaper, that's what I'd buy'

'Is it a valid ticket, or some sort of mistake?'
'Yes it's valid, but it's probably a mistake and it will get changed sometime'

'Do I go via Newport or Evesham?'
'Newport, those trains don't go to Evesham'

'What if a guard thinks the tickets aren't valid?'
'If they are sold by a ticket office they are ok, he'll know that'

'Can you write me a note for the guard to go with the tickets?'
'No we don't do that'

I also gave national enquiries a call. He was happy to sell me as many as I wanted, with seat reservations and itineraries, and said if the computer shows it, then it is valid. I asked if it wasn't odd there were two tickets with different prices and was told there are lots of different prices for the same journey because of advances, promotions and special offers.

Sean

 

[Flamingo]

Fair enough, you should have got their name as well!

 

[mickey]

They would be able to see the route on the ticket, and if buying it on-line, the different routes come up (as the OP said).

(Please, nobody say "nobody reads their ticket", or "infrequent travellers won't think to do that". That does not cut any ice with me.)

It's no different to them buying a child ticket, or a railcard discounted ticket for travel - the website allows them to do so, it does not mean that it is going to be valid in their case.

I don't think it's at all the same as child/railcard tickets, for which you actually have to click on the box saying 'child' or 'railcard'. If a route option comes up on the system and the site allows the customer to book it, as far as I'm concerned it's valid. If it's a mistake it's definitely NOT the customer's fault and the TM should take it up with the company instead. I certainly wouldn't pay an excess!
A visitor from elsewhere or someone clueless about geography may not know where Evesham is, and as we know, the train doesn't have to call at a routing point so it may not appear on departure boards for the other route, so even if he/she does see the 'route:evesham' wording may not question it.

 

[Flamingo]

If the booking method issues a reservation for the journey, then it probably should be honoured from a goodwill, if not a legal point of view (What does Dave think?)

However, a lot of people will buy the cheapest ticket, and try to travel a more expensive (usually because it is quicker or more convenient) route, and then try to argue "The man on the platform said...".

If that was just to be expected, then everybody travelling Cardiff - London would be buying £44.60 Anytime singles via Warminster / Salisbury, jumping on the peak-time direct services (£94.50) and saying "I thought it was valid for any train, the computer sold it to me so you must accept it".

Caveat Emptor covers it, I'm afraid (as does the NRCoC)

 

[mickey]

However, a lot of people will buy the cheapest ticket, and try to travel a more expensive (usually because it is quicker or more convenient) route, and then try to argue "The man on the platform said...".

If that was just to be expected, then everybody travelling Cardiff - London would be buying £44.60 Anytime singles via Warminster / Salisbury, jumping on the peak-time direct services (£94.50) and saying "I thought it was valid for any train, the computer sold it to me so you must accept it".

But is the Cardiff option available to book on the web with a reservation/itinerary on the mainline service? If not, that's not the same thing.

I agree that too many people try it on, and I don't envy those whose job it is to decide who is telling the truth and who isn't. However, that doesn't change the fact that there are people who have genuinely been sold a ticket that is technically invalid, or that it would be unfair to penalise them for it. I don't usually carry an itinerary (only if I suspect there will be a problem!) but always save it on my computer for future reference if necessary. What would happen to me? Would you have me 'fined' or arrested for a mistake I hadn't made?

 

[Flamingo]

Some chancers are VERY convincing. I'm afraid that sometimes the "Kill them all, God will know his own" approach has got it's advantages!

 

[All Line Rover]

If the booking method issues a reservation for the journey, then it probably should be honoured from a goodwill, if not a legal point of view (What does Dave think?)

I too would be very interested to hear Dave's view on this matter.

 

[s3an]

Just a quick update. There was a change of plan and I needed to make my first trip earlier than I planned. I booked the £48 ticket online and printed the itinerary, various web pages showing the booking procedure etc.
The ATW guard did query the route, but I showed the printouts and he was ok. With the outward FGW guard I got in with the paperwork first, and he didn't say anything, just stamped the ticket. On the return I did the same and FGW guard said that it was probably the engineering work easement still on the computer. ATW guard didn't appear on the way to Hereford.

I haven't given day or times in case someone's management is reading and feels different to the actual workers.

Later this week I'll try to buy the ticket from the station and see how I get on.

 

[SickyNicky]

It looks like they've fixed the error anyway - FGW's website won't sell me the ticket any more.