Why doesn't Ripon have a train line towards Harrogate or York?

[Ballyheigue]

Why on earth are people from Ripon putting up with the slow bus to Leeds, why aren't they screaming blue murder at those in power to get a train line built to either Harrogate, or better still York?

I've never heard of any pressure groups former to put proper pressure on those in authority to get it built, unlike over in Skipton where every so often the pressure group there pipes up with a campaign to get a line over towards Colne built for access to Manchester, it's not a strong pressure group mind, not as strong as I would be but it's there unlike it seems in Ripon.

Access to York provides immediate quick access to London as well as to the North East, yes there is a bus up to Northallerton for this purpose, but it's not very often and it's a slow bus.

Build a train line from Ripon and suddenly many other places become accessible, hell fire you finally may even see parts of the Dales expand into something more meaningful than a boring back water, here's looking at you Masham! Lightwater Valley, finally accessible, Fountains Abbey, finally accessible, breweries up Masham, finally accessible (ok all 3 include a poor bus service at the end but it's better than a transfer onto another slow bus) build it and they will come!

 

[The exile]

You could pose the same question about countless towns across the country and the answer will be much the same: some are, but not enough to push it up the priority list (especially if it would mean those people paying more taxes to pay for it).

 

[SynthD]

It had the Leeds to Northallerton line until Beeching. For a proposed reopening, look for anything built on the line, and the reports listed on the wiki. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leeds–Northallerton_railway

 

[Mcr Warrior]

There have been several recent proposals to re-open the former railway line between Harrogate and Ripon (and then onwards to Northallerton). Was discussed here, amongst other places...

If Ripon reopened should it be single or double track ?

For those who don't know Harrogate - Ripon - Northallerton was submitted to the DFT's 'Restoring your railway fund' previously my thoughts were that if it was reinstated it should be single track although my opinion is now swaying towards double track. What do you think, should it be single or...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[skyhigh]

Why on earth are people from Ripon putting up with the slow bus to Leeds, why aren't they screaming blue murder at those in power to get a train line built to either Harrogate, or better still York?

There was a line through Ripon - it closed in the 60s. There have been several proposals for reopening, but the money could probably be spent on many better things.

 

[YorkRailFan]

I would love to see the return of trains in Ripon, however I don't think its an urgent case at the moment. Ripon has quite good transport links, a half-hourly service to Harrogate (40 minutes) & Leeds (1h40), and an hourly service to York (1h26-1h36 depending on 82/84).

There could be obvious improvements to the bus services, such as a Sunday service to York like on the 84 every 2 hours which only stops in Skelton-On-Ure, Boroughbridge and Green Hammerton.

The connections northwards on buses aren't amazing, but a more frequent, direct service to Thirsk & Northallerton is unlikely given usage and funding.

 

[Killingworth]

There was a line through Ripon - it closed in the 60s. There have been several proposals for reopening, but the money could probably be spent on many better things.

It doesn't need more than 10 minutes looking at OS maps to see that the old track bed has been obstructed in several places, not least for road improvements, most notably to the east side of Ripon and going north by the recently constructed Butcher House Bridge A1(M) interchange.

 

[davidknibb]

There's quite a bit about all this on disused-stations.org

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/r/ripon/index.shtml

 

[bluenoxid]

There has been a campaign with Dr Adrian Morgan involved for a good 30-35 years. He has really pushed this campaign in his various capacities and offices held in the local community. I understand he has a user account on here. Efforts have been made.

About four weeks ago, Gareth Dennis covered some of the transport challenges facing the Humber and North Yorkshire area. Last week he covered the York-Hull Minsters corridor He mentioned this Harrogate northwards corridor as a particular area worth discussing and it is possible that he might do a more detailed video in the near future on this.

 

[Bahnopa]

As earlier contributors point out, a revival of the Harrogate-Northallerton route is highly unlikely as a result of road building schemes - the Ripon bypass, for example.

It is also interesting to consider why the line got the chop and why the Harrogate-York line did not. One simple reason is that Starbeck's and Knaresborough's stations are directly in the town centre - Ripon's station was a bracing long walk from the centre, allegedly because the church authorities wanted no railway in the vicinity of the cathedral.

Additionally, apart from that at Ripon no station on the route served any settlement of size - indeed, all of the intermediate stations except Ripon and Melmerby had closed by 1962. By closure of the line in 1967 the service at Melmerby was a joke - just a couple of trains per day stopped there. Also, this line closed long before the days of large scale commuting to work in York and Leeds - life was local.

One final point - up to 1958/9 the route had along with Harrogate-Wetherby-Church Fenton/ Leeds (closed 1964) a major role with trunk freight, especially slow-moving unfitted freight trains. When the ECML was quadrupled in the 1950s between York and Northallerton all of the through freight left the Harrogate routes, making them more vulnerable to closure.

 

[Western Lord]

As earlier contributors point out, a revival of the Harrogate-Northallerton route is highly unlikely as a result of road building schemes - the Ripon bypass, for example.
It is also interesting to consider why the line got the chop and why the Harrogate-York line did not. One simple reason is that Starbeck's and Knaresborough's stations are directly in the town centre - Ripon's station was a bracing long walk from the centre, allegedly because the church authorities wanted no railway in the vicinity of the cathedral. Additionally, apart from that at Ripon no station on the route served any settlement of size - indeed, all of the intermediate stations except Ripon and Melmerby had closed by 1962. By closure of the line in 1967 the service at Melmerby was a joke - just a couple of trains per day stopped there. Also, this line closed long before the days of large scale commuting to work in York and Leeds - life was local.
One final point - up to 1958/9 the route had along with Harrogate-Wetherby-Church Fenton/ Leeds (closed 1964) a major role with trunk freight, especially slow-moving unfitted freight trains. When the ECML was quadrupled in the 1950s between York and Northallerton all of the through freight left the Harrogate routes, making them more vulnerable to closure.

The York to Northallerton line was quadruple long before the 1950s.

 

[Bahnopa]

No, the last sections were completed in 1958

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Thursday at 09:37 ==

For in-depth information on the rail network around Harrogate see the excellent books by Martin Bairstow which contain a whole host of fascinating photographs and information. I spent my childhood (early 1960s) trainspotting at Harrogate and surrounding stations.

 

[JGurney]

Why on earth are people from Ripon putting up with the slow bus to Leeds, why aren't they screaming blue murder at those in power to get a train line built to either Harrogate, or better still York?

If there was an appreciable fraction of the demand needed for building a railway line, much could be done with better bus links.

Ripon's nearest station is Thirsk but the bus 70 connection consists of five journeys per day Mon - Sat only, with most taking 37 mins although the X70 demonstrates what is possible as it takes only 20 mins (but it runs once per day in one direction).

A regular service of buses linking Ripon to Thirsk Station in 20 mins, including evening and Sunday services, could be arranged for much less than the cost of a railway. How much use would one attract?

 

[yoyothehobo]

Ripon, although a lovely place with tourist attractions nearby has a tiny population of approx 17,000 and a surrounding area that is hardly overrun with people.

The economics of such a service are pitiful.

The majority of the tourist attractions in the Ripon area would require a car to get to once arriving anyway which doesnt help.

 

[YorkRailFan]

A regular service of buses linking Ripon to Thirsk Station in 20 mins, including evening and Sunday services, could be arranged for much less than the cost of a railway. How much use would one attract?

Not much, Thirsk's rail connections aren't great.

To the South, its services towards York and then over the Pennines - more easily accessible from Leeds - and 5 trains a day to London, more accessible from York. To the North, its Middlesbrough and Redcar trains, with 5 trains a day to Sunderland, the same as from York.

Northallerton has better connections than Thirsk (such as to Newcastle and Edinburgh, and more frequent London and TransPennine services) but is further away from Ripon.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

There has been a campaign with Dr Adrian Morgan involved for a good 30-35 years. He has really pushed this campaign in his various capacities and offices held in the local community. I understand he has a user account on here. Efforts have been made.

About four weeks ago, Gareth Dennis covered some of the transport challenges facing the Humber and North Yorkshire area. Last week he covered the York-Hull Minsters corridor He mentioned this Harrogate northwards corridor as a particular area worth discussing and it is possible that he might do a more detailed video in the near future on this.

Unfortunately Dr Morgan completely failed to raise much consistent support among the local populace, so much so that North Yorkshire Council eventually dropped all mention of the idea from their long-term transport plan citing that lack of local support.

While the parallel bus service is necessarily slower than a rail service would be, it does at least serve a number of communities along the way, something that the railway didn't, and wouldn't, do.

Railways are big ticket items, expensive to build and expensive to operate. Since they have to be paid for somehow they only make sense when they are reasonably well used especially when considering (re)building a former route. In that sense Ripon is pretty much a no-hoper.

If more public funding was available, a lot could be achieved by improving the local bus network but even then the potential userbase is relatively small.

 

[Western Lord]

As the Ripon By-Pass has obliterated the original railway the nearest you could get to Ripon would be a station near the Dallamires Lane Roundabout.

In fact,this would be no further from Ripon City Centre than the original station and would be closer to the residential development to the south of the centre and close to Ripon Race Course. It would require about 9 and a half miles of track to be laid and if you reinstated the original triangle east of Harrogate you could run Ripon-Knaresborough-York trains as well as trains to Harrogate and Leeds.

The question is, by how much are you prepared to see your taxes rise to support such loss making services (and the many others that people propose) when most taxpayers are unlikely ever to use it.

 

[yoyothehobo]

As the Ripon By-Pass has obliterated the original railway the nearest you could get to Ripon would be a station near the Dallamires Lane Roundabout. In fact this would be no further from Ripon City Centre than the original station and would be closer to the residential development to the south of the centre and close to Ripon Race Course. It would require about 9 and a half miles of track to be laid and if you reinstated the original triangle east of Harrogate you could run Ripon-Knaresborough-York trains as well as trains to Harrogate and Leeds. The question is, by how much are you prepared to see your taxes rise to support such loss making services (and the many others that people propose) when most taxpayers are unlikely ever to use it.

Surely you would have all trains going to Harrogate if it were to exist and i cant imagine there being any capacity to support any extra services via Knaresbrough to York.

If we can't build the third line north of York station, then any other improvements on the way out to Knaresbrough are really far down the pecking order.

The problem with Ripon's location is that it really is out on its own in the middle of nowhere, operationally speaking. Even if the line existed to this day all the way between Northallerton and Harrogate via Ripon you would expect it to get at most 1 train per hour and maybe 2tp3h. No long distances services would go that way, so its usefulness is very limited.

 

[stevieinselby]

Building a line to Ripon wouldn't attract enough custom to justify the expense – there are not many lines built to serve a town of <20k unless it is a railhead for a wider area.

If the trackbed was intact and available, there might be more of a case for building the line all the way through to Northallerton, and diverting 1tph from TPX to run that way (assuming 2tph TPX to Newcastle), providing a much faster route between Harrogate and points north.

But with the original route no longer available because it's been built on, the cost of building a greenfield route past Ripon (that potentially involves a lot of road reconstruction as well) knackers the viability of that plan.

 

[Sidmouth34010]

Why on earth are people from Ripon putting up with the slow bus to Leeds, why aren't they screaming blue murder at those in power to get a train line built to either Harrogate, or better still York? I've never heard of any pressure groups former to put proper pressure on those in authority to get it built, unlike over in Skipton where every so often the pressure group there pipes up with a campaign to get a line over towards Colne built for access to Manchester, it's not a strong pressure group mind, not as strong as I would be but it's there unlike it seems in Ripon.

Access to York provides immediate quick access to London as well as to the North East, yes there is a bus up to Northallerton for this purpose, but it's not very often and it's a slow bus. Build a train line from Ripon and suddenly many other places become accessible, hell fire you finally may even see parts of the Dales expand into something more meaningful than a boring back water, here's looking at you Masham! Lightwater Valley, finally accessible, Fountains Abbey, finally accessible, breweries up Masham, finally accessible (ok all 3 include a poor bus service at the end but it's better than a transfer onto another slow bus) build it and they will come!

probably as railways don't get built with people screaming blue murder, but with the support of an overwhelming business case .

 

[HSTEd]

The problem, as I see it, is that reopening to Ripon on the existing alignment needs 14km of route/track to serve ~14,000 people.

It's likely to be very expensive, and any extension to Northallerton is certainly unworkable economically.

If we weren't married to the old route, maybe you could work out something east of Knaresborough via Boroughbridge, which would at least allow the train to Ripon to go more places, but I doubt that would come out very much better on cost benefit ratio.

I think it is mostly proposed because the railway was there, rather than a bottom up assessment of demand,

 

[Zomboid]

It'd probably be doing ok if it still existed, with something line an hourly Leeds - Harrogate - Ripon - Northallerton train, maybe carrying on to Middleborough.

The cost of rebuilding it for that, when most journeys that don't involve Ripon are already possible, is never going to be justified by the traffic it would generate.

 

[edwin_m]

The geology around Ripon isn't great, being prone to sinkholes.

 

[Bald Rick]

I understand he has a user account on here.

Two, at least!

 

[yoyothehobo]

Two, at least!

Would that count for 2 entries and exits on the hypothetical train journey?

There is a thread which asks to define no brainer. This line would define a No Hoper...same as Waverley and the Port Road.

 

[tbtc]

The question is, by how much are you prepared to see your taxes rise to support such loss making services (and the many others that people propose) when most taxpayers are unlikely ever to use it.

Another question could be "how many thousands of new houses will the people of quaint little Ripon accept as the price to pay for a train station?"

The existing population of fourteen thousand is nowhere near enough enough to justify a long extension from Harrogate, but maybe the Government could kill two birds with one stone and establish the principle of "yes, you can have your rural reopening if you accept a significant proportion of the national housebuilding target"

Lightwater Valley would be a long walk from any station too

As for diverting Trans Pennine "Express" services through Ripon, sounds fine if looking at stock to justify on a model railway but realistically the existing fifty minute journey time for Leeds-Northallerton would be increased by about half an hour if you went via Harrogate, plus you'd be losing the important York stop (both for Manchester/Leeds - York and York - Northallerton/ Middlesbrough/ Newcastle)

However, that won't stop the True Believers bringing it up at any chance

 

[deltic08]

I would love to see the return of trains in Ripon, however I don't think its an urgent case at the moment. Ripon has quite good transport links, a half-hourly service to Harrogate (40 minutes) & Leeds (1h40), and an hourly service to York (1h26-1h36 depending on 82/84).

There could be obvious improvements to the bus services, such as a Sunday service to York like on the 84 every 2 hours which only stops in Skelton-On-Ure, Boroughbridge and Green Hammerton.

The connections northwards on buses aren't amazing, but a more frequent, direct service to Thirsk & Northallerton is unlikely given usage and funding.

I have been involved with the campaign to reinstate the railway to Ripon for 40 years. Part of the problem was that the MPs along the line, Andrew Jones, Julian Smith were against it. Rishi Sunak didn't have the courtesy to reply to any of my letters or emails. Since the 2024 GE, Julian Smith is now in favour, Andrew Jones has thankfully been kicked out and his successor is not in favour but not against the idea as Jones was. Sunak is still an unknown as he still refuses to correspond with the Group.

The problem is money. In 2005, Arup did a major study and costed the project from Ripon to Harrogate at £36M for a long siding from Harrogate with One Engine in Steam, £42M single track with a 5 mile dynamic loop in the middle and £48M double track to allow one train every 30 minutes. To-day you could add a nought onto these figures. Even so, £400M would be worth it as times from Ripon to Harrogate would only be 10 minutes non stop with diesels such as 195s and only 42 minutes to Leeds with stops at Harrogate and Horsforth. The 17:19 Heritage DMU train from Leeds in the 1970s made it to Harrogate in 28 minutes with only one stop at Horsforth. The bus as you say takes just short of 2 hours to Leeds in the peaks.

Julian Smith wrote a letter to the County Mayor in March recommending he meets representatives from the reinstatement Group and both County Councillors for Ripon to discuss the possibilities of the Ripon-Harrogate line. Again I have written 4 emails over the last 5 months to this Mayor requesting a meeting and have been ignored.

65% of all out of Ripon commuters travel the very inadequate A61 to Harrogate and Leeds. (There were 29 deaths on this road between 2003 and 2020. It is the most dangerous and 3rd most congested A road in North Yorkshire according to NYCC. There is now a blanket 50mph speed limit on this road which makes it even slower) In the peaks it takes over an hour to travel from Ripon to the outskirts of Harrogate by car and then another 30 mins travelling into Harrogate. The queue can stretch nearly 2 miles to the Ripon side of Ripley where the A61 and Nidderdale road join. With the station being centrally placed you cannot be sure of catching the service you intend as the car park is full once you reach there. More railheads and car parks are needed especially when 2,500 new homes are in the planning pipeline in Ripon. Nidd Bridge former station needs to be reopened at the same time as an out of town railhead for commuters from Nidderdale and west Knaresborough as there is only a couple of car park spaces at Knareborough station. NYCCs answer to this was to build a western by pass but as 50% of commuters are only going to Harrogate it would be £120M wasted and better spent reinstating to Nidd Bridge for starters.

The trackbed is is still clear from Ripon to Harrogate from the proposed station site except for 200 yards where the Ripon by pass has been built on the trackbed on a bridge over the River Skell. Fortunately this bridge was built 3 tracks wide. Only 3 access bridges have had their metal decks removed for scrap. All masonry bridges are intact including the 4 arch Nidd Viaduct near Bilton.

 

[deltic08]

The line was proposed for closure by Beeching through incompetance. He only took the booking office takings at Ripon on a mid weekday in February. This showed the line was losing £13,000 per annum. What he didn't realise or ignored on purpose was that the Army traffic from 2 barracks in Ripon amounted to £18,000 per annum from troop trains, army equipment brough in by the daily pickup goods and thousands of rail warrants used by the personnel. This was paid direct from the MOD to London. Also workers at York HQ on passes that again were not bought through the booking office. The line was making a small profit and shouldn't has closed. He took into consideration the operating cost of the pickup daily goods train but not the revenue and also the operating costs of the 3 passenger trains and 2 through goods trains daily that did not stop at Ripon. These were run via Ripon as an operating convenience avoiding congested York. Had they been routed via York then operating costs would note have been added to the line costs and again making a bigger profit.

The population in 1963 was just under 6,000. In 2026 the population is 18,000 and by 2030/31 will be over 25,000. Harrogate has gone from 50,000 to 100,000 and still rising with massive housebuilding

As I said before only 200 yards of the Ripon by pass are on the trackbed and the A1M was built without a bridge over the trackbed at Sinderby.

Both Harrogate-Ripon-Northallerton and Knaresborough -York were considered for closure. Harrogate District Council as it was then opposed both. Many workers at York BR headquarters lived in Knaresborough and Harrogate who also objected to closure. This line to York was reprieved and HDC then dropped all opposition to closing to Northallerton. Northern MPs were in discussion with Barbara Castle about singling the track and closing non crossing signal boxes with a passing place at Ripon if Northallerton, Ripon and Harrogate Councils shared the annual operating cost. Northallerton and Ripon agreed but Harrogate selfishly said no as the York line had been reprieved.

While the discussions were still taking place, DP2 on a Kings Cross-Aberdeen train ran into a derailed bulk cement train at Sessay near Thirsk and closed the ECML on 31st July 1967 just after the Ripon line had closed on the 6th March. A bright spark at York HQ had the idea of manning the crossing boxes on the Ripon line and diverting northbound trains on the closed line for two days while the wreckage was cleared. BR in London were so incensed that this was happening, they asked the army to demolish an overbridge by explosives at Sinderby without taking the track up immediately after the diversions ended. This closed the Sinderby to Masham B road for 4 days until the cutting was filled in and tarmaced over. This was the mentality at that time.

 

[stevieinselby]

As for diverting Trans Pennine "Express" services through Ripon, sounds fine if looking at stock to justify on a model railway but realistically the existing fifty minute journey time for Leeds-Northallerton would be increased by about half an hour if you went via Harrogate, plus you'd be losing the important York stop (both for Manchester/Leeds - York and York - Northallerton/ Middlesbrough/ Newcastle)

Leeds to Harrogate fast is about 30 minutes, based on current services.
Harrogate to Northallerton is 25 miles, so a line built to modern engineering standards with a single stop at Ripon should easily do that in 30 minutes.
Yes, it might be 10 minutes slower than the current route through York, but nowhere near "half an hour" increase.

As I said, it would have to be in addition to the 3tph TPX via York so that there is still sufficient capacity on that corridor and York doesn't lose any direct connections.
But Harrogate is also a sizeable town, and this would cut a significant chunk off journey times (at least 30 minutes and more than that in plenty of cases) northwards as well as adding the convenience of a direct connections both northwards and towards Manchester, so there would be significant gains to be had to offset taking the service away from York.
I agree that it isn't going to happen though, especially with the trackbed being unavailable going through Ripon.

 

[Djgr]

Unfortunately Dr Morgan completely failed to raise much consistent support among the local populace, so much so that North Yorkshire Council eventually dropped all mention of the idea from their long-term transport plan citing that lack of local support.

While the parallel bus service is necessarily slower than a rail service would be, it does at least serve a number of communities along the way, something that the railway didn't, and wouldn't, do.

Railways are big ticket items, expensive to build and expensive to operate. Since they have to be paid for somehow they only make sense when they are reasonably well used especially when considering (re)building a former route. In that sense Ripon is pretty much a no-hoper.

If more public funding was available, a lot could be achieved by improving the local bus network but even then the potential userbase is relatively small.

The biggest surprise to me is that North Yorkshire has a transport plan!