Thameslink to replace cushions on class 700 ironing board seats to improve comfort.. Finally..

[SECR 65]

If LU can keep S8s and S7s on their intended routes, there's no inherent reason why TSGN can't do the same.

"Welcome aboard the Gatwick Express service to Southampton Central"

You would think with 27 red units and 12 GX diagrams, all GX services might have red 387/2s? Think again... Let's have a nice white unit - oh and what about one in GWR livery? Even more exciting - three different liveries in one train!

 

[Posa]

Remove first class.

Change to longitudinal seating.

Same for middle two coaches.

Other coaches get improved seats and more legroom space as you reduce the aisle.

 

[bramling]

Ideally there would be more disciplined deployment of the 8-car and 12-car trains. 8-cars just on the inners with First Class stripped out. Outers exclusively worked by 12-cars with First Class at both ends.

If LU can keep S8s and S7s on their intended routes, there's no inherent reason why TSGN can't do the same.

There’s three immediate issues with this

Firstly, there will always be some requirement for 700/0s to reach Three Bridges as that’s where the depot is. And I don’t think there are quite enough 700/1 for the entire service to be provided by them.

Then you have KX-Cambridge which is about 75% worked by 700/0s, along with currently the bulk of the Peterborough peak extras. These currently all advertise first.

Finally there’s the issue of what happens if a 700/1 is unavailable and a 700/0 covers, as happens fairly routinely.

None of this is insurmountable, but is any solution better than the current situation?

One of the errors made by the Thameslink Programme was ordering too many 700/0s. Some of these are now serving Rainham, but the remainder are stuck on GN-only duties where their crowd-hoovering capabilities simply aren’t needed. As an aside, an associated error was the train crew depot which has no trains (Ashford). Of course, the DFT knew what they were doing, just like they did with the 700 interior spec…

 

[AM9]

I wouldn’t change the first arrangements, though I really can’t see it surviving long-term.

What *is* an issue is the overprovision of first on the 700/0 units, which I’m sure is how the declassification arrangement arose, but I’m sure you wouldn’t want to be losing that!

You may be surprised to know that I rarely bother to walk the length of a 12-car unit for the declassified 1sts, the exceptions being when I'm changing to the Lizzie at Farringdon, or alighting at Blackfriars. Legs and feet aren't what they were 10 years ago.
I think the suggestion from @NCT won't work since the original planned mix of /0s and /1s was broken when a south London politician made a fuss about some of his constituents having to wait 2 minutes in the core for another train that went beyond Blackfriars. The DfT grabbed the opportunity to save a bit of budget by ordering 5 less /1s and 5 more /0s. This resulted in some outer suburban services being 8-car instead of 12-car, on both the MML and the ECML routes north from St Pancras.

edit. Whilst I've been tapping this post in I see you've spelt out the impact better, whereas I've described basically how it got to here.

 

[RUK]

The "Cambridge Cruiser" fast services are borderline intercity

I wonder what it would be like if Cambridge-London had gotten IETs, as the original plan was. I used to live in Cambridge, but I’ve never been on an IET before - the one chance I had, on a journey from Norwich to Manchester via the ECML, changing off the EMR service for a quicker journey, I just missed it, and got an InterCity 225, for the second time ever, instead.

 

[AM9]

I wonder what it would be like if Cambridge-London had gotten IETs, as the original plan was. I used to live in Cambridge, but I’ve never been on an IET before - the one chance I had, on a journey from Norwich to Manchester via the ECML, changing off the EMR service for a quicker journey, I just missed it, and got an InterCity 225, for the second time ever, instead.

Whilst those who got seats might have been better off, a nine-car IET 233m long has less seats than a 12-car 700/1 242.6m and relatively little standing room (a 700/1 is registered to carry 1088 standees). So there would be no 'hoovering up' the crowds in the peaks. Add to that their loading/unloading characteristics, dwells would be considerably longer.

 

[MikeWM]

It sounds like a reasonable improvement - though pretty much anything done to the interior of the 700s would feel like an improvement as far as I'm concerned. Rock-hard seats, no armrests, no seat-back tables, no plug sockets, very little space for your legs in the window seats, no wifi, terrible lighting, clinical colour scheme, no separate carriages. Pretty much everything I dislike on a modern train combined into one truly appalling interior.

So anything that addresses any of those issues is to be welcomed.

 

[bramling]

Whilst those who got seats might have been better off, a nine-car IET 233m long has less seats than a 12-car 700/1 242.6m and relatively little standing room (a 700/1 is registered to carry 1088 standees). So there would be no 'hoovering up' the crowds in the peaks. Add to that their loading/unloading characteristics, dwells would be considerably longer.

I’m never sure how serious the IET proposal was, there’s a whole load of obvious logistical issues, all for no real benefit.

 

[Harratt4]

not requiring sitting with a foot contorted over ducting like in the window seats in a 700.

Speaking personally that is one area I prefer on Thameslink trains. I can sit with my foot on the top of the flat ducting, unlike on other train types where it is sloped and so you have to sit with one leg angled awkwardly inward. YMMV. There is no pleasing all of the people all of the time!!!

 

[AM9]

I’m never sure how serious the IET proposal was, there’s a whole load of obvious logistical issues, all for no real benefit.

I know, I was just pointing out the obvious flaws, - was it some local councillor getting a headline?

 

[Skimpot flyer]

Seat back tables is a must and shoul've been installed from new. Rumour at the time was the tables would somehow slow down station dwell times.

The seat trim is starting to look worn and the cushion padding is starting to collapse so I'm not surprised that there are plans for a refresh.

There are two issues, more with the layout rather than the seats themselves:

1. The lack of leg room in all but the prioroty seats
2. The lack of space between the seats - the window seat is right next to the side wall, and there is no gap between the window seat and aisle seat. The seats are actually the same as those fitted to the 387s but the 387s have better spacing due to the armrests, the result being more elbow room. This does impact the aisle width - there is noticable less room for standing on a 387.

Overall it is a compromise - better spacing of the seats will mean less standing space , and fewer seats if the leg room is improved. One redeeming feature of the 700s is they hoover up people at busy times - this is precicely due to the way the seats are spaced.

I hate the armrests on the 387s. The one nearest the window can’t be raised (unlike the ones in 1st on the 700s) and I find just irritating. Then you get those who sit down in the aisle seat on the 387s who insist on marking their territory by lowering the one that divides the two seats and poke you in the ribs with their elbow in a V-shape as they hunch over their outsize laptop on the stingy seat-back table…

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Then you get those who sit down in the aisle seat on the 387s who insist on marking their territory by lowering the one that divides the two seats and poke you in the ribs with their elbow in a V-shape

"Who insist on marking their territory"... You're not seriously criticising people for using the middle armrest?

 

[trainmania100]

Considering these are metro units with frequent calling patterns, are seats really a priority? While I'm all for comfort, I've never found the seats "bad" on any trains.

 

[MikeWM]

Considering these are metro units with frequent calling patterns, are seats really a priority?

They're not just used for 15 minute metro journeys though - try sitting on one for the 2.5 hours from Cambridge to Brighton. I did that once some years back and I'm not sure my body has ever quite forgiven me.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Speaking personally that is one area I prefer on Thameslink trains. I can sit with my foot on the top of the flat ducting, unlike on other train types where it is sloped and so you have to sit with one leg angled awkwardly inward. YMMV. There is no pleasing all of the people all of the time!!!

Unless people are "manspreading" there's enough floor width by the window seats that there's no need for anyone to encroach on the floor space for the aisle seat anyway.

 

[amarshe]

It is an oddity; I and family travel thameslink London Bridge to Cambridge several times a year - for various accessibility reasons it’s easier than transferring to the tube to King’s Cross. Usually we use the 1st class compartment at the rear but only last week we took standard - after 1.5 hours I struggled to stand…I’m not ex army but very used to sleeping in uncomfortable positions and hard seats (over 48 hours on wooden seats in Asia many many years ago!)

 

[RUK]

I know, I was just pointing out the obvious flaws, - was it some local councillor getting a headline?

It was in the original IEP Invitation To Tender from the DfT in 2007 - see Page 13:

1.3 IEP Scope

1.3.1 IEP Procurement

This ITT is for the procurement of IE Services on:…

• Other Routes being Priced Options for other service groups over which IE Services are expected to be deployed, subject to price and consequent confirmation of value for money namely:…

• East Coast (Phase 2): Kings Cross - Cambridge - Ely - Kings Lynn;…

West Coast Main Line (South): London - Northampton - Stoke - Manchester;…

It also said under Additional Options that they may get some for CrossCountry. The table on Page 15 says the ECML Phase 2 units are EMUs, not bi-mode, with enough availability to provide 11 half-length sets in service (so presumably that number doesn’t include the spare sets for maintenance), with a commuter interior:

https://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ukgwa/20071210152837mp_/http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/pi/iep/iepinvitationtotender/iepinvitationtotender.pdf

So it would have been up to 2 x 5-car sets, running doubled-up.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They're not just used for 15 minute metro journeys though - try sitting on one for the 2.5 hours from Cambridge to Brighton. I did that once some years back and I'm not sure my body has ever quite forgiven me.

I have done the 2 hours from East Croydon to Bletchley on the same type of seat and it was fine.

I am however the sort of person who can fall asleep on a concrete slab (provided it's dark and quiet and I'm lying down). Not a metal bar though.

 

[Kite159]

Regarding the new seat cushions on the 700s, the proof will be when the first 700 comes out with the new seat cushions to see if it is indeed an improvement over the current seats.

After-all seats are very much subjective, what could be OK for someone could be awful for someone else

(As for armrests, fixed window-side armrests are a pain in the neck as they are too low to be useful)

 

[bramling]

"Who insist on marking their territory"... You're not seriously criticising people for using the middle armrest?

I’d say etiquette probably suggests that the armrest should be left as per whoever was sitting there first. Having said that, if an obese person were to sit down then I’d probably be looking to have it lowered.

The armrests are a bit of an acquired taste. If someone finds them annoying it may well be because they are not sitting in the seat as designed. The seats are designed for those with properly shaped backs, and rely on sitting up tall. I didn’t like the armrests at first, but after being sure to be using them as a posture support I find them fine. They are definitely geared around people with good back posture and core stability / strength.

 

[SECR 65]

I wonder what order the units will be done in? All of one subclass then the other? And do we know where the work will be undertaken?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I’d say etiquette probably suggests that the armrest should be left as per whoever was sitting there first.

Really? You're going to make me paranoid now. I'm overthinking all of the times I completely innocently sat down and lowered the armrest.

 

[bramling]

Really? You're going to make me paranoid now. I'm overthinking all of the times I completely innocently sat down and lowered the armrest.

I wouldn’t worry about it massively, most people aren’t going to care one way or the other.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I’d say etiquette probably suggests that the armrest should be left as per whoever was sitting there first. Having said that, if an obese person were to sit down then I’d probably be looking to have it lowered.

It's a personal space divider, to me the default is down. I will always put it down if I join someone or if it appears someone will join me.

 

[bramling]

It's a personal space divider, to me the default is down. I will always put it down if I join someone or if it appears someone will join me.

I tend to make sure I’m sitting somewhere first, however on the rare occasions of joining someone else I’d ask first, knowing that the answer is always going to be yes.

I don’t really like people, so try and plan my journeys to avoid them as far as possible!

 

[Turtle]

I tend to make sure I’m sitting somewhere first, however on the rare occasions of joining someone else I’d ask first, knowing that the answer is always going to be yes.

I don’t really like people, so try and plan my journeys to avoid them as far as possible!

Not the Brighton Line for dointhough. I was threatened one peak hour morning

 

[Bald Rick]

It may happen, but I have never witnessed anyone being turfed out of first on a 700 because they have a standard ticket, despite very obviously not having first tickets (school kids, tradesmen, etc.).

Really? About once a week on average I see people being fined, or (much less frequently) invited to move sharpish.

Do we presume this interior refit will be used to GBR-liveryify the 700s too?

Don’t assume that.

Assuming the 717s are excluded from this?

Yes, this is the 700s only.

GN had 21x class 365s which they chose to off-lease

There’s also the matter of Southern choosing to off-lease 46x 455

Point of roder - the decision was not GN / Southern’s

If LU can keep S8s and S7s on their intended routes, there's no inherent reason why TSGN can't do the same.

There’s not enough 12x700s for the routes they serve, some 8s always have to be on the Bedfords etc (usually at oeak times and start/end of day)

I’m never sure how serious the IET proposal was, there’s a whole load of obvious logistical issues, all for no real benefit.

It was very serious. Some gauge clearance was done for them.

 

[Harratt4]

Unless people are "manspreading" there's enough floor width by the window seats that there's no need for anyone to encroach on the floor space for the aisle seat anyway.

I do hope you didn’t just accuse me of manspreading… !

The point I was making, was that if you are in the window seat you cannot have your leg in a vertical plane if it’s a slope not a flat duct.

Absolutely nothing to do with manspreading.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I do hope you didn’t just accuse me of manspreading… !

The point I was making, was that if you are in the window seat you cannot have your leg in a vertical plane if it’s a slope not a flat duct.

Absolutely nothing to do with manspreading.

Ha ha, no - I was talking generally.

When I'm on a 700 ( which is usually by choice over other types when there's more than one type on a route... ), I will be in a window seat, both feet on the floor and I'm nowhere near encroaching on the aisle seat floorspace.

 

[boiledbeans2]

... and despite the core capacity being at a maximum courtesy of ETCS with ATO, any reduction in the crush load capacity could not be recovered by more trains, even if they were aqvailable.

[...] The DfT grabbed the opportunity to save a bit of budget by ordering 5 less /1s and 5 more /0s. This resulted in some outer suburban services being 8-car instead of 12-car, on both the MML and the ECML routes north from St Pancras.
[...]

To resolve the capacity issues, how about DfT orders more carriages to extend some 8-cars to 12-cars?
Like the Pendos getting extended. Like the Class 345, 378s, 710s getting extended.