The end of 387 on Cambridge fasts

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Hello

Still a few 387s on Kings Lynn services alongside the now usual 379s. Will this remain, or will they eventually be relegated to Cambridge/Letchworth stoppers and peak Peterboroughs, like the 700s?

 

[bramling]

Hello

Still a few 387s on Kings Lynn services alongside the now usual 379s. Will this remain, or will they eventually be relegated to Cambridge/Letchworth stoppers and peak Peterboroughs, like the 700s?

I suspect it will become all 379 north of Cambridge. The current diagrams seem to be constructed so that the four remaining diagrams which take 387s north of Cambridge can readily change over, giving a 379 utilisation of 25/30 which seems about right.

Whether something remains at weekends or in a future timetable remains to be seen. I suspect 387s won’t ever be total strangers to Kings Lynn.

I’m not sure GTR were expecting that at this stage they would still have 5 379s still to be recommissioned. There doesn’t seem to be any urgency to do it, as the remaining units seem to be stored, with no outward sign of being worked on.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I suspect it will become all 379 north of Cambridge. The current diagrams seem to be constructed so that the four remaining diagrams which take 387s north of Cambridge can readily change over, giving a 379 utilisation of 25/30 which seems about right.

Whether something remains at weekends or in a future timetable remains to be seen. I suspect 387s won’t ever be total strangers to Kings Lynn.

I’m not sure GTR were expecting that at this stage they would still have 5 379s still to be recommissioned. There doesn’t seem to be any urgency to do it, as the remaining units seem to be stored, with no outward sign of being worked on.

That's two pairs, right?

 

[43074]

I suspect it will become all 379 north of Cambridge. The current diagrams seem to be constructed so that the four remaining diagrams which take 387s north of Cambridge can readily change over, giving a 379 utilisation of 25/30 which seems about right.

Whether something remains at weekends or in a future timetable remains to be seen. I suspect 387s won’t ever be total strangers to Kings Lynn.

Yes, if all 30 379s were in traffic (26 diagrams), there would be enough instances of 387s on Kings Cross to Cambridge slow and semi-fast services for Kings Lynn drivers to retain their traction knowledge on both types without 387s having booked services north of Cambridge.

I’m not sure GTR were expecting that at this stage they would still have 5 379s still to be recommissioned. There doesn’t seem to be any urgency to do it, as the remaining units seem to be stored, with no outward sign of being worked on.

It has been known for a while that the last few units would be the most awkward to reintroduce. Believe there may be an 700/0 covering a pair of 387 diagrams to allow the cascade to Southern to happen as planned.

That's two pairs, right?

Yep that's right

 

[bramling]

Believe there may be an 700/0 covering a pair of 387 diagrams to allow the cascade to Southern to happen as planned.

Oh great, something to not look forward to…

 

[evergreenadam]

Is there any prospect of some extra 12 coach diagrams on Cambridge fast services from KX? The 2025 loadings data shows heavy standing loads departing on 8 coach services from Cambridge towards KX in the mornings on all days of the week including Saturdays and Sundays.

 

[wagnaga]

Is there any prospect of some extra 12 coach diagrams on Cambridge fast services from KX? The 2025 loadings data shows heavy standing loads departing on 8 coach services from Cambridge towards KX in the mornings on all days of the week including Saturdays and Sundays.

Presumably to achieve this requires a return to splitting and joining more services at Cambridge which reduces resilience and requires more staff?

 

[rmHawk765]

Presumably to achieve this requires a return to splitting and joining more services at Cambridge which reduces resilience and requires more staff?

12-coach trains do not need to be split at Cambridge unless they are heading further north. They can be split at King's Cross or not be split at all and simply run back to Hornsey.

 

[barringtoncem]

I did travel on a GWR branded class 387 from Huntingdon to KX some considerable while ago and think i had the same unit on the return journey

 

[wagnaga]

12-coach trains do not need to be split at Cambridge unless they are heading further north. They can be split at King's Cross or not be split at all and simply run back to Hornsey.

Do any fast services commence at Cambridge? I thought in normal service they all started at Kings Lynn or Ely running as stopping services to Cambridge South and then non stop afterwards (or minimal calls in peak).

 

[rmHawk765]

Do any fast services commence at Cambridge? I thought in normal service they all started at Kings Lynn or Ely running as stopping services to Cambridge South and then non stop afterwards (or minimal calls in peak).

At peak there are additional semi-fast trains which only go as far as Cambridge. However the Sunday situation is completely different, there is only 1tph of fast trains (which continue to Kings Lynn), the alternative being the slower Brighton trains or even slower services to Liverpool Street, and as these usually run as 8-coaches it is not uncommon for them to be full and partially standing. On Saturdays there is 2tph with the Ely trains but the issue doesn't go away entirely.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Yes, if all 30 379s were in traffic (26 diagrams), there would be enough instances of 387s on Kings Cross to Cambridge slow and semi-fast services for Kings Lynn drivers to retain their traction knowledge on both types without 387s having booked services north of Cambridge.

Got it, so I assume when the final 379s do enter service the last 387s will be removed from Cambridge fasts. Good to know.

I’m mainly interested because it must be such a lottery for first class passengers. While I appreciate many people find the 379s an upgrade in standard, it’s subjective as they do offer the same facilities — 2+2 seating, armrests, tables, plugs, air-con, Wi-Fi. But the 387 and 379 First Class product is objectively a very very different offering.

 

[rmHawk765]

I’m mainly interested because it must be such a lottery for first class passengers. While I appreciate many people find the 379s an upgrade in standard, it’s subjective as they do offer the same facilities — 2+2 seating, armrests, tables, plugs, air-con, Wi-Fi. But the 387 and 379 First Class product is objectively a very very different offering.

I do really think the 379 first class should be advertised better, as many passengers familiar with the 1st class on 387s probably don't even consider it nowadays.

 

[bramling]

Got it, so I assume when the final 379s do enter service the last 387s will be removed from Cambridge fasts. Good to know.

I’d say that’s a reasonable assumption to make. However even if that is the plan, things can change. For example back in 2018 it was never expected that class 700s would be regularly booked to Kings Lynn, but they were for a time.

 

[MikeWM]

It would be nice if GN managed to fix the seemingly-never-ending issues on the 379s first.

0946 Ely-KGX cancelled (yet again) this morning due to the inbound service (a pair of 379s) being cancelled at Cambridge due to a 'train fault', which seems par for the course at the moment.

 

[rmHawk765]

0946 Ely-KGX cancelled (yet again) this morning due to the inbound service (a pair of 379s) being cancelled at Cambridge due to a 'train fault', which seems par for the course at the moment.

Image showing continued poor reliability on Kings Lynn and Ely trains - I have only included the last 7 days so as to avoid blaming GTR for heatwaves but nonetheless the issues persist.

 

[evergreenadam]

Presumably to achieve this requires a return to splitting and joining more services at Cambridge which reduces resilience and requires more staff?

At the time of the 2025 data, there were 12 coach trains operating on some services on the Cambridge expresses 7 days a week. So it would just be expanding the existing arrangements to cover a few more services.

 

[Magdalia]

At the time of the 2025 data, there were 12 coach trains operating on some services on the Cambridge expresses 7 days a week. So it would just be expanding the existing arrangements to cover a few more services.

On Sundays yes, on Mondays to Saturdays no.

The Sunday service is 1tph, so there are spare units, and the timetable allows trains to split and join in platform 1 at Cambridge, without needing ECS moves to and from the carriage sidings.

The Monday to Saturday service is 2tph, so there are no spare units to make more trains up to 12 cars. Furthermore, because the timetable is more intensive, down trains split in platforms 1/4 while up trains join in platforms 7/8 at Cambridge. This requires ECS moves to and from the carriage sidngs, and the peak hour timetable at Cambridge has to be different to accommodate them. It is one of the reasons why the Norwich-Stansted through service disappears in the peaks.

 

[bramling]

On Sundays yes, on Mondays to Saturdays no.

The Sunday service is 1tph, so there are spare units, and the timetable allows trains to split and join in platform 1 at Cambridge, without needing ECS moves to and from the carriage sidings.

The Monday to Saturday service is 2tph, so there are no spare units to make more trains up to 12 cars. Furthermore, because the timetable is more intensive, down trains split in platforms 1/4 while up trains join in platforms 7/8 at Cambridge. This requires ECS moves to and from the carriage sidngs, and the peak hour timetable at Cambridge has to be different to accommodate them. It is one of the reasons why the Norwich-Stansted through service disappears in the peaks.

It’s been three with-flow peak services M-F more or less since Covid, AFAICR? Before that there were a few more, although seemingly more for stock positioning.

Barring disruption, is there that much need for any more 12-car weekday services as things stand at the moment? 8 cars seems to cope okay on the bulk of services as far as I can see.

 

[Crithylum]

My experience of Saturday morning services is that they are extremely busy Cambridge to London (and I assume the other way as well). When I took the 09:42 CBG departure (12 cars) there were very few seats in the rear 11. Last Saturday, the (delayed) 10:10 departure (which just missed its slot so was stuck behind the Thameslink I was on until after Finsbury Park) had significant numbers of people standing.

 

[Kite159]

I'm sure at one point when splitting/joining at Cambridge was more frequent the unit (s) which was getting detached from a northbound train remained on the platform at Cambridge with the southbound train attaching to them around 10 or so minutes later.

 

[bramling]

I'm sure at one point when splitting/joining at Cambridge was more frequent the unit (s) which was getting detached from a northbound train remained on the platform at Cambridge with the southbound train attaching to them around 10 or so minutes later.

This was the old way of doing things in WAGN/365 days. Things haven’t been done like this since at least May 18.

 

[wagnaga]

This was the old way of doing things in WAGN/365 days. Things haven’t been done like this since at least May 18.

Is this because there just isn't the capacity at Cambridge anymore for this?

 

[Magdalia]

Is this because there just isn't the capacity at Cambridge anymore for this?

Yes, in particular the addition of the 12 car Brighton trains.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Is this because there just isn't the capacity at Cambridge anymore for this?

Yes, in particular the addition of the 12 car Brighton trains.

But also as eights no longer need to split as they can carry on to Kings Lynn now.

 

[bramling]

Is this because there just isn't the capacity at Cambridge anymore for this?

Yes plus it didn’t really work that well. Slightest out-of-course working and it caused issues. They still do it on Sundays I think, but naturally on a Sunday there aren’t as many trains about.

The original May 18 timetable actually worked fairly well for the GN side of things (barring the driver issues). The next couple of timetables refined things to a point where it was quite simple and polished. Things have got messier since in various ways, though partly out of necessity as May 18 used quite a lot of platform space at KX for GN.

 

[evergreenadam]

If 12 coaches on the Cambridge stoppers as part of the Thameslink programme has resulted in it being harder to operate 12 coaches on the Cambridge expresses, that is a big downgrade.

Is that why there is a proposal for another island platform?

 

[Magdalia]

If 12 coaches on the Cambridge stoppers as part of the Thameslink programme has resulted in it being harder to operate 12 coaches on the Cambridge expresses, that is a big downgrade.

There are no 12 car trains on the Cambridge stoppers. It is the Brighton trains that are 12 cars.

Is that why there is a proposal for another island platform?

No, new platform capacity at Cambridge is for East West Rail.

 

[Violette]

There are no 12 car trains on the Cambridge stoppers. It is the Brighton trains that are 12 cars.

No, new platform capacity at Cambridge is for East West Rail.

A shame about Cambridge. How is it decided how many coaches a train gets? Does the train keep all its coaches for the day/week? What is the longest train you have seen? (As in how many coaches attached)

 

[bramling]

A shame about Cambridge. How is it decided how many coaches a train gets? Does the train keep all its coaches for the day/week? What is the longest train you have seen? (As in how many coaches attached)

Most weekday Great Northern trains are nowadays 8 cars, apart from a tiny handful of 4 cars at the very extremes of the day.

Six Fen Line services are lengthened to 12 cars inwards of Cambridge, three for each peak, chosen on the basis of which are the busiest. Additionally one peak Peterborough extra return trip is also 12 cars.

All Cambridge-Brighton and Horsham-Peterborough TL services are booked 12 cars, with the exception of one evening Peterborough-Horsham return journey which is 8 cars.

Weekends is slightly different and can vary according to engineering work. There’s more 12-car Fen Line services at weekends than in the week.

The poor availability of the recently introduced 379 fleet means 4 cars do sometimes appear, and it’s quite common for 700/0 to substitute for unavailable 700/1s.