We could not connect to the services that deliver your tickets

[Belperpete]

This morning, I bought two tickets on the Avanti website, one for today and the other for tomorrow, as separate transactions. ToD as for cross London travel. Both purchases went through, and I got collection references for both. However, when I went to the station, they couldn't find the second ticket on the system. Looking through my emails, I found an email saying that even though I had been given a collection reference, the purchase had been cancelled:

Sorry, we were unable to process the ticket(s) you attempted to purchase from us ....... as we could not connect to the services that deliver your tickets.
We will process a refund immediately to your payment card for the full amount.

So I tried again, and the same thing happened - purchase goes through, collection reference displayed, but shortly after an email to say it was cancelled.

Anyone have any idea what is going on? I am reluctant to try again, and have them take the money from my account yet again with nothing to show for it - particularly if my card issuer suspects something fishy is going on and freezes it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Just use a different retailer? Looks like there is some sort of outage.

 

[Mainline421]

I'd just buy it at the station, if you want ToD anyway no point in buying online unless you're going for some kind of incentive and it doesn't sound like it qualifies for Club Avanti or any cashback schemes

 

[Belperpete]

I'd just buy it at the station, if you want ToD anyway no point in buying online unless you're going for some kind of incentive and it doesn't sound like it qualifies for Club Avanti or any cashback schemes

It would have qualified for Club Avanti, which was why I was trying to buy it from them. But I ended up buying it at the station.

The second attempt was several hours after the first, which seems a long time for an outage without anybody else reporting it, which was why I was wondering if there could be some other cause. I did wonder if it was because I already had a ticket in the system to collect (of the exact same value), but then my second attempt was after I had collected that ticket.

Edit: the second attempt was long after the first attempt, but only shortly after I had collected the ticket for my outward journey.

 

[Gaelan]

Just use a different retailer? Looks like there is some sort of outage.

Giving the user a collection reference then following up with an email (which the user may not immediately see) saying "just kidding it didn't go through" is extremely poor form, and has a high risk of problems like customers having to overpay for a walk-up ticket when they were under the impression they held a perfectly good Advance.

I have some sympathy for the occasional downtime; I have far less sympathy for this particular failure mode.

 

[Adam Williams]

It's interesting it gave you a booking reference.

It is possible for retailers to grab a block of them in advance, and then write the records afterwards but it's risky doing it that way, of course. Raileasy don't, if the fulfilment doesn't succeed the payment doesn't even get captured in the first place.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Giving the user a collection reference then following up with an email (which the user may not immediately see) saying "just kidding it didn't go through" is extremely poor form, and has a high risk of problems like customers having to overpay for a walk-up ticket when they were under the impression they held a perfectly good Advance.

I have some sympathy for the occasional downtime; I have far less sympathy for this particular failure mode.

I would agree it's pretty rubbish (to be honest everything about Avanti's booking site is pretty rubbish, hence why I never use it) - but it was just a practical suggestion for the original poster to get their ticket.

 

[Belperpete]

Giving the user a collection reference then following up with an email (which the user may not immediately see) saying "just kidding it didn't go through" is extremely poor form, and has a high risk of problems like customers having to overpay for a walk-up ticket when they were under the impression they held a perfectly good Advance.

This exactly what happened to me, I was totally unaware that it had been cancelled. I presented the two collection references to the booking clerk, one worked, the other didn't. So I showed the Avanti booking screen on my tablet which was still showing the collection reference thinking I might have copied it down wrong, but no. It was only when I looked at my emails that I found out what had happened.

I also have the Avanti app, and under My Tickets it is showing the tickets as cancelled, but with no explanation. It is only the emails that give any explanation. Anyone following the maxim of only checking their emails and social media once a day is not going to find out.

Fortunately I was buying an off peak return, not an advance, so I was still able to buy the same ticket.

 

[jumble]

This morning, I bought two tickets on the Avanti website, one for today and the other for tomorrow, as separate transactions. ToD as for cross London travel. Both purchases went through, and I got collection references for both. However, when I went to the station, they couldn't find the second ticket on the system. Looking through my emails, I found an email saying that even though I had been given a collection reference, the purchase had been cancelled:

So I tried again, and the same thing happened - purchase goes through, collection reference displayed, but shortly after an email to say it was cancelled.

Anyone have any idea what is going on? I am reluctant to try again, and have them take the money from my account yet again with nothing to show for it - particularly if my card issuer suspects something fishy is going on and freezes it.

I have had worse a few weeks ago from another TOC retailer (Who I am not going to name at present as I am still trying to get answers)
I am only saying it is TOC so no one thinks it is any of the independents
Sold me TOD tickets
Neither Ticket office nor TOD machine would print them because they were apparently blocked
Customer services closed early in the morning
No Notification that there is anything wrong
Email afterwards asking if I enjoyed my trip
Customer services stated that there was no way for the TOC to find out what happened
A refund turned up 2 weeks later no offer of compensation
Have tried to escalate but been totally ignored
SAR has been sent to see if it turns up anything useful

 

[redreni]

I have had worse a few weeks ago from another TOC retailer (Who I am not going to name at present as I am still trying to get answers)
I am only saying it is TOC so no one thinks it is any of the independents
Sold me TOD tickets
Neither Ticket office nor TOD machine would print them because they were apparently blocked
Customer services closed early in the morning
No Notification that there is anything wrong
Email afterwards asking if I enjoyed my trip
Customer services stated that there was no way for the TOC to find out what happened
A refund turned up 2 weeks later no offer of compensation
Have tried to escalate but been totally ignored
SAR has been sent to see if it turns up anything useful

I was going to say I can't imagine what may have prompted a TOC to do that, but thinking about it, maybe I can. Seems like a pretty clear breach of contract, though. If I were you I'd be looking to be compensated for that, so that I'd be no worse off (and I mean that in every sense, not just monetarily) than if the contract had been performed by the TOC as agreed.

 

[Belperpete]

This morning, I bought two tickets on the Avanti website, one for today and the other for tomorrow, as separate transactions. ToD as for cross London travel. Both purchases went through, and I got collection references for both. However, when I went to the station, they couldn't find the second ticket on the system. Looking through my emails, I found an email saying that even though I had been given a collection reference, the purchase had been cancelled:

Sorry, we were unable to process the ticket(s) you attempted to purchase from us ....... as we could not connect to the services that deliver your tickets.
We will process a refund immediately to your payment card for the full amount.

So, two days later, my credit card account is showing the two debits, but no sign of either refund. So much for the "immediately". I have raised a customer complaint.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So, two days later, my credit card account is showing the two debits, but no sign of either refund. So much for the "immediately". I have raised a customer complaint.

Credit card refunds take about a week to process. They said they would process it immediately which is the best they can do.

 

[Belperpete]

Credit card refunds take about a week to process. They said they would process it immediately which is the best they can do.

So they can take the money immediately, but wait a week to give it back? Effectively they have had a free loan of my monies for a week?

If it is going to take a week, then the refunds likely won't arrive before my next credit card bill is calculated. So I will have to cough up for these payments, and only see the refunds a month later on my next bill. Should I demand interest?

 

[Bletchleyite]

So they can take the money immediately, but wait a week to give it back? Effectively they have had a free loan of my monies for a week?

Blame the credit card companies. Businesses have no control over this.

If it is going to take a week, then the refunds likely won't arrive before my next credit card bill is calculated. So I will have to cough up for these payments, and only see the refunds a month later on my next bill. Should I demand interest?

Only if you live in about 1995. The rest of us would check our online accounts, see that the refund had arrived prior to the monthly payment date, and know that we didn't need to include that in the monthly payment because the refund already settled that transaction.

 

[Mainline421]

So they can take the money immediately, but wait a week to give it back? Effectively they have had a free loan of my monies for a week?

They don't get the money immediately either, but obviously you can't spend while it's on hold

 

[The exile]

Credit card refunds take about a week to process. They said they would process it immediately which is the best they can do.

No it is not. It is the best they choose to do. When a refund is evidently because of a systems failure (so therefore cannot be part of a money laundering exercise) an organisation should be required to offer the refund immediately in cash or replace at no charge.

 

[styles]

So they can take the money immediately, but wait a week to give it back? Effectively they have had a free loan of my monies for a week?

If it is going to take a week, then the refunds likely won't arrive before my next credit card bill is calculated. So I will have to cough up for these payments, and only see the refunds a month later on my next bill. Should I demand interest?

Unfortunately this is how card payments in the UK and most of Europe work.

Well, sort of.

We operate what's known as a 'dual messaging' system. So first an authorisation message is sent to your card issuer to check you have the funds, and if you do then they'll reduce your 'available balance'. Some time later, usually a couple of days tops, a presentment message is sent which they actually deducts the money from your 'actual balance'.

The authorisation is a question, and the presentment is an instruction, but in reality, when a card issuer receives an authorisation message they reduce the available balance to prevent cardholders becoming overdrawn by approving too much in payments than the cardholder has available to spend.

That presentment message which takes a bit of time to come through is similar to the refund message, which means it also takes a bit of time to come through.

A quirk of this system is that a credit message is usually slower to receive than a refund message, so if you go onto a gambling website, deposit some money, win more, than withdraw it, they'll often return it as a refund rather than a credit, because it's slightly cheaper and quicker, even though it's not technically correct!

All this is to say that the business putting the refund through immediately and it taking a day or a few days to come through is basically the best they can do. They don't control how these payment systems work - that is down to the card schemes (Visa, Mastercard, etc). They have the card issuers over a barrel really because creating a brand new card scheme is immensely difficult. It's why in western countries you mainly see Visa, Mastercard, and Amex; if you're lucky, UnionPay and JCB.

And yes, this system does suck. I paid over £2k for an AirBnb once only for the booking to be automatically cancelled and it took a good week for my funds to be returned. In the meantime I'm out of pocket to the tune of two grand.

You can claim statutory interest but it won't be worthwhile. It is currently 11.75% APR (8%+BoE base rate). I don't know how much your ticket was but I'd be surprised if the interest paid for a coffee even.

The only way to get your money back quicker would be if they devised a way of paying it to you in cash, which for many people would be inconvenient anyway. Due to anti-money laundering regulations, paying refunds to a different source than the original payment is highly discouraged, so this likely wouldn't happen anyway.

 

[The exile]

Only if you live in about 1995. The rest of us would check our online accounts, see that the refund had arrived prior to the monthly payment date, and know that we didn't need to include that in the monthly payment because the refund already settled that transaction.

Not if you settle your CC bill in full by direct debit and the refund doesn’t arrive in time to be included. Also a (different) problem if you’re nearing your card limit.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No it is not. It is the best they choose to do. When a refund is evidently because of a systems failure (so therefore cannot be part of a money laundering exercise) an organisation should be required to offer the refund immediately in cash or replace at no charge.

Replacing the tickets maybe. Refunding a card transaction in cash isn't permitted by merchant agreements.

 

[Adam Williams]

Unfortunately this is how card payments in the UK and most of Europe work.

It is, but the answer to this is simple. You auth for the amount, fulfil tix and then capture if and only if the fulfillment succeeded. The authorisation and cancellation messages don't get batched up, they're sent instantly - so if the bank isn't incompetent the customer will have their funds unringfenced same day.

IBM decided not to do it sensibly, and now they've backed themselves into a corner - and you're correct, this is now the fastest they can get money back via the card system. But it was a problem of their own making.

 

[The exile]

Replacing the tickets maybe. Refunding a card transaction in cash isn't permitted by merchant agreements.

That would at least leave the customer no worse off in lots of cases.

 

[styles]

It is, but the answer to this is simple. You auth for the amount, fulfil tix and then capture if and only if the fulfillment succeeded. The authorisation and cancellation messages don't get batched up, they're sent instantly - so if the bank isn't incompetent the customer will have their funds unringfenced same day.

IBM decided not to do it sensibly, and now they've backed themselves into a corner - and you're correct, this is now the fastest they can get money back via the card system. But it was a problem of their own making.

Oh I agree, I was maybe unclear but trying to say that given Avanti's devs didn't have the foresight to only issue tickets once payments had been approved, a few day to issue a refund is basically the best they can do now.

If I had a customer service hat on I may even suggest that in small-scale network issues, issuing the tickets regardless may actually provide a positive customer experience!

 

[Watershed]

If it really makes a difference to your monthly bill then you could do a chargeback of the transaction on the basis that the service was not provided. You are usually provided with an instant credit whilst a chargeback is processed/considered.

 

[styles]

If it really makes a difference to your monthly bill then you could do a chargeback of the transaction on the basis that the service was not provided. You are usually provided with an instant credit whilst a chargeback is processed/considered.

Agreed though an important distinction to be made - a chargeback on a card may not be instant, and it basically invokes an arbitration process with the card scheme. There's no guarantee you'll get your money back quicker, or indeed interest. If you've paid with a third-party processor such as PayPal, you're not guaranteed cover. If you've paid with a credit card and the transaction was over £100 then you're better making a section 75 claim which effectively invokes the credit card company's joint liability for the dispute. In many cases, for a chargeback to be processed, the card issuer will want evidence that the merchant has both breached the contract and refused to refund.

Basically - the first step in a chargeback claim is to contact the merchant. In this case Avanti have said they're going to issue a refund so most card issuers are likely to decline a chargeback claim on this basis.

 

[Watershed]

Agreed though an important distinction to be made - a chargeback on a card may not be instant, and it basically invokes an arbitration process with the card scheme. There's no guarantee you'll get your money back quicker, or indeed interest. If you've paid with a third-party processor such as PayPal, you're not guaranteed cover. If you've paid with a credit card and the transaction was over £100 then you're better making a section 75 claim which effectively invokes the credit card company's joint liability for the dispute. In many cases, for a chargeback to be processed, the card issuer will want evidence that the merchant has both breached the contract and refused to refund.

Basically - the first step in a chargeback claim is to contact the merchant. In this case Avanti have said they're going to issue a refund so most card issuers are likely to decline a chargeback claim on this basis.

Perhaps I have just been particularly lucky with chargebacks but I have always been provided with a credit until the claim is looked into, to prevent precisely this scenario.

I agree that if an intermediary like PayPal is involved then there is more of a complication. I really don't understand why people use such services unless it's to make use of "Pay in 3" or similar.

In my experience lenders invariably refuse to process a s75 claim at the first instance and insist on trying a chargeback claim first, because that means they're not out of pocket. You often have to raise a complaint for them to actually do what you asked for!

 

[styles]

Perhaps I have just been particularly lucky with chargebacks but I have always been provided with a credit until the claim is looked into, to prevent precisely this scenario.

Fair enough! It's not guaranteed though, so will depend on your card issuer/bank. Some are much better than others.

 

[Haywain]

You auth for the amount, fulfil tix and then capture if and only if the fulfillment succeeded.

How does that work with ToD when the ticket may not be collected until long after the authorisation has expired?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Oh I agree, I was maybe unclear but trying to say that given Avanti's devs didn't have the foresight to only issue tickets once payments had been approved, a few day to issue a refund is basically the best they can do now.

Yep - and also only to claim money from authorisations if the tickets were successfully issued.

If I had a customer service hat on I may even suggest that in small-scale network issues, issuing the tickets regardless may actually provide a positive customer experience!

The railway prefers to look after the pennies than provide good customer service. It was ever thus.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Wednesday at 09:21 ==

How does that work with ToD when the ticket may not be collected until long after the authorisation has expired?

I think you'd consider that it succeeded once it was in the ToD database.

It's amazing how many large scale business software products are nontransactional, though. At uni you are taught of the importance of database transactions, where either an entire set of operations commit correctly or they are all rolled back automatically, and then in the real world big stuff like SAP and ServiceNow are completely nontransactional and when stuff goes wrong you end up with bits everywhere to fix manually.

 

[Haywain]

I think you'd consider that it succeeded once it was in the ToD database.

A ticket in the ToD database has definitely not been fulfilled, and can still be cancelled by the retailer.

 

[Adam Williams]

A ticket in the ToD database has definitely not been fulfilled, and can still be cancelled by the retailer.

Sorry, "fulfilled" in the context I'm using it means from the retailer's perspective, so:

• Written into LSM successfully, ready for collection for Ticket on Departure, or:
• E-Tickets (PDFs, Apple Wallet, Google Wallet) & barcodes generated and sent successfully

Tickets could subsequently be refunded in both cases, but the retailer's job has been done by this point, so it's reasonable to collect the payment.

You are right that ToD is deferred fulfilment from a rail industry perspective, and tickets aren't issued until collection. But even if we wanted to, we couldn't delay taking the payment for that long (also, the industry doesn't want us to refund uncollected ones...)