Ghost drivers - Fatal crash on A66

[WelshBluebird]

When it comes to driving offences like this specifically surely its easy? Take away their license and if they still drive then take away their car (and continue if they get a new one). Or am I being too naive here? We arent talking about behaviour that happens in the street we are talking about one of the most regulated things a private individual does by and large. Yes these scotes break the law but we have ways to prevent them being behind a wheel.

 

[ainsworth74]

Many years since I looked into this but I'm pretty sure when I read all the research the general consensus was that likelihood of getting caught prevented crime, but length of sentence made little to no difference. To use a blunt example, somebody committing murder doesn't really care if it's 20 years or 30 years in prison - what matters is how likely they are to be caught murdering.

Not really, though the likelihood of getting caught is a big factor in bringing down crime.

I wish I could remember where I first came across that but that tallies with my own reading on the subject. Generally speaking people who commit crimes aren't really thinking about the length of the sentence they might get but whether they're going to get caught. Generally if someone thinks that if they do crime X they'll be caught that's the deterrent whether or not it's 5 years or 25 years they might get for doing it. Obviously it does have an impact at the margins(!) if the punishment for robbing a bank is six months in prison and confiscation of the stolen money then you might decide even with a high chance of being caught its worth it. But generally speaking, especially I reckon for the sort of criminality we see in Middlesbrough, it's the fact that people feel that the odds are in their favour that they're just not going to get caught.

Cleveland Police are on something of a tear at the moment:

Cleveland Police said five further arrests had been made, including a 16-year-old boy and two men, 18 and 21, who were arrested on suspicion of participating in an organised crime group.
A 55-year-old man was also arrested on suspicion of assisting an offender and a 23-year-old man on suspicion of making threats to kill.

Two men have also been charged, one for possession of a firearm with intent to endanger life, and one with possession with intent to supply class A and class B drugs and possession of criminal property.

All five of the newly arrested men remain in custody.

Those previously arrested as part of the investigation are:

• Three men, aged 24, 19 and 35, all held on suspicion of participating in an organised crime group and possession of an offensive weapon. They are in police custody.
• A man, 21, held on suspicion of participating in an organised crime group, possession of an offensive weapon and criminal damage. He has been remanded on recall to prison
• A 30-year-old woman arrested on suspicion of assisting an offender and who is in police custody
• A 20-year-old man arrested on suspicion of threats to cause criminal damage and public order. He remains in custody
• A 26-year-old man was charged with possession with intent to supply class A drugs, as well as the possession of criminal property. He was remanded in custody ahead of his next court hearing
• Another man, 39, and a 47-year-old woman have been released on conditional bail after both being arrested on suspicion of possessing a firearm without a certificate, possession with intent to supply class A and class B drugs, and possession of class C drugs
• An 18-year-old man has been released on unconditional bail after being arrested on suspicion of possessing a firearm without a certificate, possession with intent to supply class A and class B drugs, and possession of class C drugs
• A 61-year-old woman has been released on conditional bail after being arrested on suspicion of possessing a firearm without a certificate
• A 39-year-old man has been arrested on suspicion of threats to kill and has been released on conditional bail

Father's house was rammed by car before son died in A66 crash

The house belonging to Cole Worthy's father is significantly damaged with windows also smashed.

www.bbc.co.uk

I reckon that's far more of a deterrent than tougher sentencing by itself. After all you could make the sentence for mobile phone theft life in prison without parole but if people remain confident that the police won't catch them then there will still be plenty of stolen phones. Does make you wonder what changed for Cleveland Police to be going around picking this many people up so suddenly. Wonder if they got something off phones from the dead thugs?

Stick is probably part of the solution here (though not the only part) but I'm not sure the answer is tougher sentences but instead more resources so that the police (not just here but elsewhere too!) are better able to tackle crime, so it can be prosecuted swiftly (and with a proper defence advocate as well), and there be jails with room to hold those convicted and the facilities to undertake rehabilitation activities.

Far easier though to just shout about being "TOUGH ON CRIME" and impose tough sentences mind you...

That article I linked also has some interesting information about what was going on before the crash with the Volvo apparently crashing into the house of the father of one of the guys that died (no suggestion dad is involved in any criminality) then the five of them getting into the Passat and setting off. Very strange.

 

[styles]

Not really, though the likelihood of getting caught is a big factor in bringing down crime. But if you can't keep hitting people with bigger sticks (and I accept this is not good policy) then I also see why some locals are pleased those lads died. That's five fewer criminals to worry about.

I wouldn't say I'm "pleased" that they died. I wouldn't be pleased about anybody dying.

But they have gone out of their way to endanger public servants and caused their death.

This morning I went down a bit of a rabbit hole of the family members and their balloon releases and whatnot. I was genuinely shocked by the tone of the parents of some of the deceased, as they genuinely believe it to be the fault of the police still, and are defending their children despite the very clear and obviously dangerous driving. I actually don't know what the solution to this is because the position is absolutely ridiculous. I emplore people to check out the Facebook posts from the parents because it's genuinely eye-opening.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This morning I went down a bit of a rabbit hole of the family members and their balloon releases and whatnot. I was genuinely shocked by the tone of the parents of some of the deceased, as they genuinely believe it to be the fault of the police still, and are defending their children despite the very clear and obviously dangerous driving. I actually don't know what the solution to this is because the position is absolutely ridiculous. I emplore people to check out the Facebook posts from the parents because it's genuinely eye-opening.

Unfortunately there is a culture in what one might term "chav" circles that their poorly behaved, often criminal (as in this case) children can do no wrong and it's the world's fault for being against them not their fault for choosing a path of crime.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Tuesday at 15:49 ==

When it comes to driving offences like this specifically surely its easy? Take away their license and if they still drive then take away their car (and continue if they get a new one). Or am I being too naive here? We arent talking about behaviour that happens in the street we are talking about one of the most regulated things a private individual does by and large. Yes these scotes break the law but we have ways to prevent them being behind a wheel.

Wasn't the car stolen? Or was that the not-dissimilar Irish incident?

 

[ainsworth74]

This morning I went down a bit of a rabbit hole of the family members and their balloon releases and whatnot. I was genuinely shocked by the tone of the parents of some of the deceased, as they genuinely believe it to be the fault of the police still, and are defending their children despite the very clear and obviously dangerous driving. I actually don't know what the solution to this is because the position is absolutely ridiculous. I emplore people to check out the Facebook posts from the parents because it's genuinely eye-opening.

Yes, one suggests a darkened room afterwards to allow your blood pressure to recover.

But this is why it's so complicated. What on earth do you do in the scenario in which you have multi-generational issues with clocking out of anything even beginning to resemble a social contract (justified or otherwise)? Stick is probably part of the solution sure. But as a few people pointed out, just locking people up doesn't make crime magically go away. Especially when the conditions surrounding these areas are apt to simply create another generation to follow the proceeding several. I don't know what the answers are to try and solve this in the long term. As I say this has been happening for decades. It's one of the reasons the focus on TikTok and social media is so frustrating. Yeah social media probably isn't helping but it's not as if these were delightful estates full of happy go lucky individuals who were suddenly destroyed by evil social media. There's a criminal element there for decades just festering away and steadily recruiting generation after generation of young boys into the same web.

That being said it should be noted that it is still a minority of the people that live there. Most people that live in Middlesbrough just want to get on with their life in a law abiding fashion. But there is this minority which cause the vast majority of issues.

 

[JamesT]

Wasn't the car stolen? Or was that the not-dissimilar Irish incident?

The Irish car was reported to have been stolen. The Passat in the A66 crash apparently had cloned plates.

 

[Darandio]

Wasn't the car stolen? Or was that the not-dissimilar Irish incident?

It was on cloned plates at least. At least one of those involved had plenty of previous for car theft so taking away licenses or cars isn't going to make any difference.

In terms of the recent chat about people around here being pleased. From those i've spoken to in my shop over the last few days that is the general consensus, quite a few people are happy to see the back of them. I think that's simply because many people have simply had enough.

 

[ainsworth74]

In terms of the recent chat about people around here being pleased. From those i've spoken to in my shop over the last few days that is the general consensus, quite a few people are happy to see the back of them. I think that's simply because many people have simply had enough.

Yeah I'm not going to revel in their deaths in the way that some have been doing so. But...

 

[Tetchytyke]

Yeah I'm not going to revel in their deaths in the way that some have been doing so. But...

I'm not pleased they died. I'd much prefer that they'd have gone straight home at a safe speed, changed into their Thomas the Tank Engine PJs, and had a nice hot cup of Horlicks.

But they didn't. I can't say I'm particularly devastated by their removal from the gene pool. Stupid games, stupid prizes, etc etc.

I am genuinely devastated for the families and friends of the innocent police officers they took with them.

Unfortunately there is a culture in what one might term "chav" circles that their poorly behaved, often criminal (as in this case) children can do no wrong and it's the world's fault for being against them not their fault for choosing a path of crime.

Trouble is, there's a healthy dose of truth behind that sentiment.

Traveller communities have, for generations, faced widespread hatred whenever and wherever they turn up. Some of it might be justified and some of it might not be, but it doesn't really matter. They turn up, everyone gets angry, and then the police come and kick the crap out of them.

Look at Dale Farm all those years ago. It was, ultimately and at its heart, a planning dispute which was ended by the police coming in and smashing everything to bits. Travellers owned the land but built more pitches on it than they were allowed to.

Compare and contrast the council's reaction to that planning dispute with what happens when a big corporate "accidentally" builds a warehouse far bigger than originally designed and "accidentally" causes huge noise pollution when they said they wouldn't. You don't see councils spending £5m on heavies to come in and smash everything up. Normally retrospective planning permission gets approved after the right palms get greased.

So, yes, people from those communities probably are going to stick two fingers up at everyone.

I have absolutely no idea how we fix it. What these kids and the ones in Kildare have done is absolutely awful and disgusting and disgraceful. I hope Cleveland Police do clear up the criminality. But none of that really fixes the root cause.

It comes down to one thing, really: why would you play by society's rules when society repeatedly makes it very clear that you're not welcome?

 

[AlterEgo]

I wouldn't say I'm "pleased" that they died. I wouldn't be pleased about anybody dying.

But they have gone out of their way to endanger public servants and caused their death.

This morning I went down a bit of a rabbit hole of the family members and their balloon releases and whatnot. I was genuinely shocked by the tone of the parents of some of the deceased, as they genuinely believe it to be the fault of the police still, and are defending their children despite the very clear and obviously dangerous driving. I actually don't know what the solution to this is because the position is absolutely ridiculous. I emplore people to check out the Facebook posts from the parents because it's genuinely eye-opening.

It wouldn't open the eyes of many people who have come across this type of Traveller before. Many Traveller families are simply organised crime gangs with blood feuds. Unfortunately for them as a minority, Travellers who integrate into mainstream society are often invisible because they may not declare their background for fear of prejudice, which means that almost every interaction I've had with someone I could identify as a Traveller has been negative. (Eg: it's possible I've worked with one but how would I know?)

Leighton Buzzard, where I grew up, had a big problem with them in the late 1990s - camping on the football pitches, farms, public parks etc, and being essentially local terrorists.

This all ended when someone - we don't know who - tried to blow up a caravan, and they left. They were terrifyingly violent psychopaths, I recall.

We do have a big problem with integrating Travellers but a good deal of then simply do not want to be part of society. It is not an easy problem to solve.

 

[Egg Centric]

Many years since I looked into this but I'm pretty sure when I read all the research the general consensus was that likelihood of getting caught prevented crime, but length of sentence made little to no difference. To use a blunt example, somebody committing murder doesn't really care if it's 20 years or 30 years in prison - what matters is how likely they are to be caught murdering.

It depends what you want to be doing with prison. For deterrence, sure, 30 years is barely any difference to 20 years. For keeping someone out of circulation though it's 50% better!

My own view is that:

a) we have far too many laws (I doubt that many people are convicted because of them, but still)

b) the majority of short prison sentences should not be happening and that our sentencing towards most offences is too harsh, certainly if it's been adjusted in the last couple of decades

c) there are a small number of perennial nuisances though (which probably applied to at least one of the lads involved here) where we have to forget rehabilitation/deterrence and lock them up with harsh terms for even fairly minor offences just to protect society; I wouldn't agree with a mechanistic 3 strikes approach for the reason @najaB says amongst other things but disproportionate sentencing? Sure.

 

[alex397]

This morning I went down a bit of a rabbit hole of the family members and their balloon releases and whatnot. I was genuinely shocked by the tone of the parents of some of the deceased, as they genuinely believe it to be the fault of the police still, and are defending their children despite the very clear and obviously dangerous driving. I actually don't know what the solution to this is because the position is absolutely ridiculous. I emplore people to check out the Facebook posts from the parents because it's genuinely eye-opening.

I often do this when a serious crime has been committed in my local area. Usually the same friend groups, same families, from the same areas. They often mouth off on Facebook defending their criminal family/friends no matter what, even if they’ve been arrested for domestic abuse, violently attacking members of the public, or selling Class A drugs. It’s always someone else’s fault. And there is usually the incredibly selfish balloon release or Chinese lanterns if there has been a fatality.

There’s a perception amongst some that it’s ‘foreigners’ that are usually behind crime. My local research shows it’s overwhelmingly people from long-established families.
And it’s certainly useful to know which areas in Canterbury to avoid living in!

 

[ainsworth74]

I'm not pleased they died. I'd much prefer that they'd have gone straight home at a safe speed, changed into their Thomas the Tank Engine PJs, and had a nice hot cup of Horlicks.

But they didn't. I can't say I'm particularly devastated by their removal from the gene pool. Stupid games, stupid prizes, etc etc.

I am genuinely devastated for the families and friends of the innocent police officers they took with them.

Yep that's a fair summary of where I'm at as well!

 

[DarloRich]

I reckon that's far more of a deterrent than tougher sentencing by itself. After all you could make the sentence for mobile phone theft life in prison without parole but if people remain confident that the police won't catch them then there will still be plenty of stolen phones. Does make you wonder what changed for Cleveland Police to be going around picking this many people up so suddenly. Wonder if they got something off phones from the dead thugs?

2 of their own died so they are going to pull everyone connected to this event in and sweat them. Anyone under surveillance will be dragged in regardless of the status of that enquiry.

Stick is probably part of the solution here (though not the only part) but I'm not sure the answer is tougher sentences but instead more resources so that the police (not just here but elsewhere too!) are better able to tackle crime, so it can be prosecuted swiftly (and with a proper defence advocate as well), and there be jails with room to hold those convicted and the facilities to undertake rehabilitation activities.

Far easier though to just shout about being "TOUGH ON CRIME" and impose tough sentences mind you...

I agree - exactly what I am saying!

I am all for locking people up but you cant have those same people coming out of a stretch as illiterate as when they went in. They are a captive audience, literally! You have to use prison to break the cycle. Punishment ( yes) but care and a chance to improve. I am fairly certain I read somewhere roughly half of UK prisoners have literacy so low it severely limits daily functioning. We have got to sort that out.

It wouldn't open the eyes of many people who have come across this type of Traveller before. Many Traveller families are simply organised crime gangs with blood feuds. Unfortunately for them as a minority, Travellers who integrate into mainstream society are often invisible because they may not declare their background for fear of prejudice, which means that almost every interaction I've had with someone I could identify as a Traveller has been negative. (Eg: it's possible I've worked with one but how would I know?)

To be fair in my previous life I dealt with several traveller families and they were all decent people and no worse or better than the same type of people in the local community. They had behaviours that I wouldn't condone or follow but no worse than anyone else.

Clearly there are, like all communities, wrong us in the travelling community who do damage and harm to all.

Which works until the criminals decide to get tougher. Other countries have shown that this is an arms race that nobody wins.

We already have one of the largest per-capita prison populations in Europe, which doesn't support the idea that the "tough on crima" mantra is all that effective. Whilst this approach might appear satisfying, it seems unlikely to solve the problem in the long term, and exacerbates the shortage of prison spaces caused by the Tories in the short term.

Lets not bother then - just let people do what they want. Either we have rules or we don't. I am not sure I want to be in the "no rules" world!

Education that leads to opportunity is the way out of this cycle but that takes a lot of time and money and a proper governmental level plan to improve things.

Is there an example in history where hitting people with a bigger stick has eradicated crime?

Eh? Who is talking about sticks? I am talking about a zero tolerance approach to crime. It has been done in Cleveland before and it worked. Mid to late 90's. Crime figures, especially for low level & anti social crime fell. I am sure @ainsworth74 knows who I am talking about ! A visible no nonsense approach is required.

 

[Bletchleyite]

We already have one of the largest per-capita prison populations in Europe, which doesn't support the idea that the "tough on crima" mantra is all that effective. Whilst this approach might appear satisfying, it seems unlikely to solve the problem in the long term, and exacerbates the shortage of prison spaces caused by the Tories in the short term.

Or we aren't tough enough. If you would spend a week in the cells for nicking a chocolate bar, hardly anybody would. You start with low level crime.

 

[D1511]

Or we aren't tough enough. If you would spend a week in the cells for nicking a chocolate bar, hardly anybody would. You start with low level crime.

But to give the other side of that, if you got 10 years for a UK equivalent of GTA, how much more desperate would the car chases become?
There's no easy fix......

 

[Bletchleyite]

But to give the other side of that, if you got 10 years for a UK equivalent of GTA, how much more desperate would the car chases become?
There's no easy fix......

I think if you look at how little crime there is in countries which have a draconian approach to enforcement it's pretty clear that, while you would get some unintended consequences, a much stricter approach would result in lower crime generally.

OK, in this case it had the death penalty, but not deliberately.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Or we aren't tough enough. If you would spend a week in the cells for nicking a chocolate bar, hardly anybody would. You start with low level crime.

Someone I know was friendly with someone who received a (short) prison sentence.

The reaction of both was shock at the treatment - going straight from court to prison was the first. As a prison visitor his friend found his treatment undignified.

Of course, all this could have been avoided by the culprit not breaking the law, and I had no sympathy. But it does show that effect is felt regardless of the length of the sentence, and made me wonder whether very short sentences (1§ week as an example might be a deterrent.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The reaction of both was shock at the treatment - going straight from court to prison was the first. As a prison visitor his friend found his treatment undignified.

If the offence was actually committed, I can't think of any word to reply to that other than "good". If you have committed a crime serious enough for prison (and in the UK that's a really serious one in the scheme of things), you should be treated in an undignified way. That's part of the punishment.

Of course, all this could have been avoided by the culprit not breaking the law, and I had no sympathy. But it does show that effect is felt regardless of the length of the sentence, and made me wonder whether very short sentences (1§ week as an example might be a deterrent.

I certainly think they would be. I wouldn't nick a chocolate bar either way, but I bet "you'll get a week in prison if you're caught" would be a massive deterrent to those who would.

 

[MicroLithium]

Or we aren't tough enough. If you would spend a week in the cells for nicking a chocolate bar, hardly anybody would. You start with low level crime.

People still stole (probably at higher rate than they do today) when the sentence for theft was death (under the Bloody Code) or life imprisonment at hard labour (transportation to Australia). If you could stop crime with harsh punishment, the past would have been Utopia

 

[Merle Haggard]

If the offence was actually committed, I can't think of any word to reply to that other than "good". If you have committed a crime serious enough for prison (and in the UK that's a really serious one in the scheme of things), you should be treated in an undignified way. That's part of the punishment.


/snip

I completely agree - I wasn't criticising the treatment, but making the point that this deterrent is regardless of sentence length.

As it happens the offence was a 'Yewtree' one with 100% proof, so there was considerable stigma (to put it mildly!) created in his former circle subsequent to conviction.

 

[BrianW]

If only things were (more) simple! There's a lot of anger and rage here; a lot of sympathy for the killed policemen's families and for the police generally- and rightly so; somewhat less understanding of the 'villains'- again understandably so. Many here admit to not knowing the answer, and that includes me. Many also would agree that 'something must be done' and politicians will recognise that something must be seen to be done. Can anything be learned form history; what evidence is there of what works.

Michael Howard said 'Prison works'. As Yew observed upthread (#54) 'We already have one of the largest per-capita prison populations in Europe, which doesn't support the idea that the "tough on crime" mantra is all that effective.'
Our prisons are stuffed to the gunnels, with many repeat offenders and men on remand. Is prison a 'badge of office' in the same way as being 'liked' or 'shared'.

Young folk are invincible, and longing to be loved/ shown respect/ admired. GCSE results remain stubbornly low in the North East.

Industrial decline and unemployment. Dorman Long built their steel works at Redcar in 1917. (The first Cleveland ironstone mine opens, at Grosmont,in 1837). At the same time Arthur Dorman built Dormanstown to the designs of Sir Patrick Abercrombie to house the workers- a 'garden village, it's still there, though the steel works closed in 2015. The area is one of unremitting industrial dereliction divided by dual carriageway roads (like the A66) delivered by the then Minister fro Unemployment in the North East, Quentin Hailsham Hogg in the 1960s. The area now makes up the undeveloped Teesworks/ Teesport Freeport under Lord Ben Houchen.

I and a colleague were approached in the 1990s to come up with plans to demolish inter-war houses in South Bank (or was it Grangetown?) while rehabilitating Victorian terraces. Dereliction and Unemployment were rife . We were not appointed. Keith Hellawell was Chief Constable of Cleveland Police at the time. GoogleEarth shows alternate rows of terraces demolished, superseded by areas of grass in their place, and some pretty 'landscaped' corners.

In 2015, the Church of England identified 'Parts of Middlesbrough where 60% of children are living in poverty'; it will surely be more now. I recently changed buses at Middlesbrough's fine bus station (was PM Andy Burnham there recently?)- very quiet. toilets 'unavailable', and the adjoining Town Centre almost deserted; hoardings trumpeting government investment in Middlesbrough, including £24 Million for the Towns Fund. Over £2 Million has been allocated earlier this year to combat crime: https://teesvalley-ca.gov.uk/news/new-action-to-tackle-middlesbrough-town-centre-crime-and-disorder/

So, things have been done; investment has been made- to what effect? Hitachi Rail has its manufacturing base at Newton Aycliffe, the first New Town in the north, founded in 1947. Stockton, Darlington, Shildon still have railway connections, but the money in the north east- where is that?- Durham, Bishop Auckland, Richmond, Teesdale ...? I mean this in a nice way- What is Middlesbrough for? What are these young people, and their parents, for?

 

[Yew]

our sentencing towards most offences is too harsh, certainly if it's been adjusted in the last couple of decades

Unfortuantely, longer sentences are politically expedient, they fit the "tough on crime" narrative, and the costs don't surface till later.

 

[najaB]

Lets not bother then - just let people do what they want. Either we have rules or we don't. I am not sure I want to be in the "no rules" world!

I never said that there shouldn't be punishment, but the all stick approach has been shown not to work.

 

[Yew]

Lets not bother then - just let people do what they want. Either we have rules or we don't. I am not sure I want to be in the "no rules" world!

In my previous interactions with you on this forum I have always found you to be able to engage in sensible discussion. I hope that is still the case, and that the straw-man argument above is just a symptom of having a lot of quotes to to respond to. I do wonder if it would be worth splitting out the topic of general justice reform from the more charged topic of this incident.

Education that leads to opportunity is the way out of this cycle but that takes a lot of time and money and a proper governmental level plan to improve things.

Indeed, but just because it is hard, does not mean it is worthwhile. Similarly, all too often stays in prison don't focus on rehabilitation, but instead mean that minor criminals just end up with contacts in organised crime.

 

[BrianW]

I never said that there shouldn't be punishment, but the all stick approach has been shown not to work.

Apparently, contrary to popular belief, 'Over the past thirty years, both violent crime and property crime have fallen by some 80 per cent in England and Wales - a fact also seen in other part of the UK and across Europe', according to Mark Easton on the BBC: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0030c2y. I don't know whether that's 'crime' or 'reported crime'. 'Hanging's too good for them'? Time was when 'hardnuts' might have had a place in the Armed Forces, but they're not wanted there- where intelligence is needed. No English and Maths GCSE's- no chance.

 

[Yew]

Time was when 'hardnuts' might have had a place in the Armed Forces, but they're not wanted there- where intelligence is needed. No English and Maths GCSE's- no chance.

Indeed, in generations gone by, there would have been many industries happy to take on apprentices, and give those not-so-acedemically inclined another chance to make something of themselves, in a workplace that could work to smooth off some rough-edges. Unfortunately, across much of the country such schemes, and the companies that ran them, are very rare beasts indeed.

 

[Tetchytyke]

If you would spend a week in the cells for nicking a chocolate bar, hardly anybody would.

Or you’d do a cost/benefit analysis and go bigger. You may as well be hanged for a sheep as a lamb.

made me wonder whether very short sentences (1§ week as an example might be a deterrent.

A week inside is only a deterrent to people who have something to lose on the outside. And non-custodial sentences would have the same effect on those people.

Otherwise it’s a week’s board and lodgings.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Tuesday at 18:55 ==

Similarly, all too often stays in prison don't focus on rehabilitation, but instead mean that minor criminals just end up with contacts in organised crime.

Indeed.

Minor criminals learn lots of things when they’re inside from the more experienced pros.

It is not stuff that we want them to learn…

 

[Starmill]

If the offence was actually committed, I can't think of any word to reply to that other than "good". If you have committed a crime serious enough for prison (and in the UK that's a really serious one in the scheme of things), you should be treated in an undignified way. That's part of the punishment.

Technically the purpose of the justice system is to punish, rehabilitate and deter. Wanton abuse does not fulfil any of those and may actually be counter-productive to at least two. That's why the modern concept of prison is that it's to deprive one of one's liberty, but not of one's dignity. Unless by undignified you mean things that are really more just an inconvenience rather than actually debased?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Unless by undignified you mean things that are really more just an inconvenience rather than actually debased?

You lose your individuality, freedom and privacy. You become a number and do as you are told, not as you want. You eat what you're given, not what you fancy.

That sort of thing.