UK switching to electric vehicles discussion

[telstarbox]

There is though (and I've got one). Cars have external negative effects whatever their type of propulsion.

 

[dcbwhaley]

There is though (and I've got one). Cars have external negative effects whatever their type of propulsion.

Many people refuse to consider any alternative means of transport to the car. Even when convenient rail or bus services exist

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is though (and I've got one). Cars have external negative effects whatever their type of propulsion.

Though those negative externalities vary a bit depending on the use case. A large non ULEZ diesel SUV in a city centre with one person in it is significantly worse in most ways than a small EV with a family of four in it on a motorway or in a rural area.

 

[Snow1964]

Reuters have issued a you tube video, explaining why electric car sales in Europe are growing, based on data available to them

Electric vehicle sales across much of Europe continued to accelerate in July, as high oil prices, subsidies and availability of more affordable models encouraged more consumers to ditch their combustion-engine cars, data provided to Reuters showed. #News #Reuters #Newsfeed #europe #evs #electricvehicles

 

[Peter Sarf]

and there you revealed what you are - an opinionated left winger who has no idea of the reality of modern life with kids and older people who DEPEND on the car for their livelihood and ability to provide a life for themselves and their family. there is NOTHING selfish about the need or desire to own a car.

I am afraid there will always be an anti car brigade.

But a problem I have is that the growing dependency on cars was not stemmed when it could have been. We have over recent decades watched the growth of out of town shopping centres and entertainment venues. Ironically leaving town centres often to run down. This could/should have been controlled by planning authorities.

Instead we have public transport networks centred on redundant town centres (principally buses) and the need for people to own and operate a car.

Many people refuse to consider any alternative means of transport to the car. Even when convenient rail or bus services exist

I come across people who do not consider alternatives to driving. They will turn a five minute walk into a five minute drive. I do often walk up to 20 minutes each way to town as I am too lazy and tight to join a gym !. But if I am carrying a lot then the car is a must. To be honest my walking is less recently as I have an over 66 bus pass and I also lost mobility after an electric bus threw me down the stairs.

One thing we have to be careful of is that public transport gets subsidised by car users. So without tax revenue from car users public transport would not be sustainable (fares would have to go up). Some people tend to ignore the bit involving the £ sign !.

We cannot un-invent the car but we can and must make its use less necessary.

 

[styles]

and there you revealed what you are - an opinionated left winger who has no idea of the reality of modern life with kids and older people who DEPEND on the car for their livelihood and ability to provide a life for themselves and their family. there is NOTHING selfish about the need or desire to own a car.

I feel this is an unnecessarily argumentative tone to be honest.

I own a car, it's a filthy old diesel as well, but I recognise the car dependency problem in the UK.

Really it's about using the best tool for the job, in my view. If I'm picking up a bunch of stuff from Ikea I'm probably hiring a van. If I'm doing the weekly food shop, probably the hatch. Popping down to my volunteering without lots of gear, probably bike. Corner shop or taking nephew to school, we walk it.

But there's a bit of a sunk cost fallacy with cars. People have already bought them, paid the finance, the MOT, the VED, the service, etc and it's very easy to jump into the car for even short trips. Our roads, schools, local shops, hospitals, etc weren't designed for it. On average, 5 people a day die on UK roads, and we're one of the best countries in the world for road safety so very much on the better side of things. Children and adults living in city centres are suffering from respiratory diseases caused both by tailpipe emissions but also from PM 2.5/PM10 from tyres and brakes even on EVs.

Of course, switching from an old diesel to an EV is going to improve pollution, but ultimately there are still air pollution problems, fatalities and casualties, parking issues, etc.

We probably ought to be rolling out pool car schemes and encouraging using the right tool for the job, which is often a bicycle or a pair of trainers, or indeed a bus or a train.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The number of people in the car is significant. A family car with 4 in it is a pretty good use of roadspace, and per seat is I think better than a Voyager?

It's cars with one person in them that are the ones that should be highest priority for getting onto public transport, cycling etc.

 

[styles]

The number of people in the car is significant. A family car with 4 in it is a pretty good use of roadspace, and per seat is I think better than a Voyager?

It's cars with one person in them that are the ones that should be highest priority for getting onto public transport, cycling etc.

According to the National Travel Survey, average car occupancy is between 1.1-1.2 people depending which year is looked at.

That suggests an incredible number of cars are running with just 1 person in them.

 

[jon0844]

Its largely irrelevant what fuel the prime mover of the Range Rover was. It was a Range Rover Sport which is Diesel Mild Hybrid. According to the Bedfordshire fire brigade the most likely cause was an electrical fault or engine bay component fault. Would have applied equally to a BEV in all likelihood.

The structural damage was mostly because of drainage around the central core, which fuel rapidly went down and caused the severity of the fire. The new car park has a totally different design, such that the drainage is at the edges.

So if there was no fuel tank to burst once the fire took hold, it's unlikely the scale of the fire would have been anywhere near as severe - especially as the vehicle was dumped in the middle of the car park, not a space (because the owner (who knew the car had an issue) had to make a flight). It's quite possible that despite an EV battery being hard to put out, it would have been more containable and surrounding cars would have not caught fire at all.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I feel this is an unnecessarily argumentative tone to be honest.

I own a car, it's a filthy old diesel as well, but I recognise the car dependency problem in the UK.

Really it's about using the best tool for the job, in my view. If I'm picking up a bunch of stuff from Ikea I'm probably hiring a van. If I'm doing the weekly food shop, probably the hatch. Popping down to my volunteering without lots of gear, probably bike. Corner shop or taking nephew to school, we walk it.

But there's a bit of a sunk cost fallacy with cars. People have already bought them, paid the finance, the MOT, the VED, the service, etc and it's very easy to jump into the car for even short trips. Our roads, schools, local shops, hospitals, etc weren't designed for it. On average, 5 people a day die on UK roads, and we're one of the best countries in the world for road safety so very much on the better side of things. Children and adults living in city centres are suffering from respiratory diseases caused both by tailpipe emissions but also from PM 2.5/PM10 from tyres and brakes even on EVs.

Of course, switching from an old diesel to an EV is going to improve pollution, but ultimately there are still air pollution problems, fatalities and casualties, parking issues, etc.

We probably ought to be rolling out pool car schemes and encouraging using the right tool for the job, which is often a bicycle or a pair of trainers, or indeed a bus or a train.

This is it. We need to try to use alternatives where possible. Make that easier with ten minute cities (but I know even two minute walks are beyond many peoples imagination). It does not help that the sunk cost is so high. I try to ignore it but many cannot and the missus particularly resents me not taking her to the shops that are ten minutes walk away. Despite that I am quite successful 691 miles since 17/10/2025 !. That is lower than expected even by me. I put on 229 miles 12-16/08/2026 going to my favourite festival.

The car is more use than a hire van because I can faff around for days before gathering all the essentials etc from two different houses and the shops. I miss having a car when I do not have one but when I have one I wonder why......

BUT this is easier for me living in Croydon. If I lived where my parents lived on the edge of the Medway Towns a car would be needed more. The buses were totally crap compared to Greater London. Last bus was before closing time (11 pm - remember those days ?). So the carrot may not be there even for decent sized towns.

According to the National Travel Survey, average car occupancy is between 1.1-1.2 people depending which year is looked at.

That suggests an incredible number of cars are running with just 1 person in them.

I remember car sharing schemes decades ago - the flaw was because the driver was happy to take a passenger but so few wanted to be the passenger. For commuting I can imagine many cases the journey times one direction or the other did not match. Car too convenient and frequent buses not there.

With the switch to electric vehicles this is not getting addressed. There is even a risk it will be worse if the costs are all on the road tax rather than a mileage charge.

 

[styles]

I remember car sharing schemes decades ago - the flaw was because the driver was happy to take a passenger but so few wanted to be the passenger.

Absolutely. I remember working with a lad once who hated being a passenger. It wasn't just me either - he disliked it with other colleagues. I'm not really sure what causes this but it's a real attitude. I understand it for commuting to an extent because you probably feel a bit of a loss of control over when you clock off, but this guy just didn't like it for company trips even.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Absolutely. I remember working with a lad once who hated being a passenger. It wasn't just me either - he disliked it with other colleagues. I'm not really sure what causes this but it's a real attitude. I understand it for commuting to an extent because you probably feel a bit of a loss of control over when you clock off, but this guy just didn't like it for company trips even.

I am afraid part of it might be that some people like the privacy of their own car. The thought of sharing means they might as well go on public transport - and won't !. Some just want to feel in control - again public transport will not work !.

I spoke to someone recently in London who has never been on a bus and he does not intend to. Mind you sometimes there are some rather n savoury people on public transport, I try not to think about it.

 

[Snow1964]

I spoke to someone recently in London who has never been on a bus and he does not intend to. Mind you sometimes there are some rather n savoury people on public transport, I try not to think about it.

The are also some less than polite and respectful people who drive and make every other drivers lives a misery because of their road rage style

But at the moment the economics of using an electric car (if already got it) vs using bus or train, are very much against public transport. If I go to my nearest big city (about 7 miles each way) it costs me about 30p in overnight electricity. The bus is £6 return, train £5.35 return with senior railcard. (I am 5 years too young to get senior bus pass)

Maybe I am an outlier, 1-2 mins walk to station or bus, so not inconvenient, at least 2 per hour (although not evenly spaced each hour), both for train and bus. So not difficult journeys, but no comparison with 30p electricity and £2-3 to park near where I need to go.

 

[Noddy]

According to the National Travel Survey, average car occupancy is between 1.1-1.2 people depending which year is looked at. That suggests an incredible number of cars are running with just 1 person in them.

Sadly I’m one of them. I do about 20000 miles per year and about 12-14000 is for work trips. I’m on my own 99.9% of the time for that. What you can’t see is all the kit that is being carried in the boot of the car that I need on site. Another transport method simply wouldn’t be practical.

In terms of personal trips they’re slightly better but living in a rural area I can’t see any situation where the bus provision would improve enough for me to choose it. However, if cycling (or even walking) provision was improved it would massively reduce the number of mile solo trips I undertake to go the shops/doctors/etc in the local town (5 mile round trip). Currently I don’t ever cycle there because the road is too dangerous for me. The nearest railway station is there so also off limits. Because there is safe cycling route to the nearest city (a 22 mile round trip in a different direction) I do cycle there when I need to occasionally use the banks or solo shop there.

 

[Peter Sarf]

The are also some less than polite and respectful people who drive and make every other drivers lives a misery because of their road rage style

People do think they are safer in the tin can. In fact some of the road rage is because the angry person is angry at an object rather than the person within it maybe (they do not see the object of their hate as a human).

But at the moment the economics of using an electric car (if already got it) vs using bus or train, are very much against public transport. If I go to my nearest big city (about 7 miles each way) it costs me about 30p in overnight electricity. The bus is £6 return, train £5.35 return with senior railcard. (I am 5 years too young to get senior bus pass)

This is the challenge with EVs. Heavy users have been rewarded for switching with unsustainable discounts (on tax).

Was the switch to EV a lost opportunity in the case of early adopters.

Maybe I am an outlier, 1-2 mins walk to station or bus, so not inconvenient, at least 2 per hour (although not evenly spaced each hour), both for train and bus. So not difficult journeys, but no comparison with 30p electricity and £2-3 to park near where I need to go.

Sounds like you try better than most given your rural setting.

But yes the tin can on wheels can carry a lot and still costs the same. It is also fairly weather proof and collision proof. Are modern cars too comfy ?.

 

[Mawkie]

Reuters have issued a you tube video, explaining why electric car sales in Europe are growing, based on data available to them

It's an interesting short video. Not sure I agree with the 1st of the 3 reasons given for increased sales, namely:

1. The war in Iran leading to increased fuel prices.
2. The discount schemes available across Europe.
3. The availability of smaller, more affordable cars.

The increase in fuel prices can't really have hit the cyclical purchase of new cars yet in any significant way.

The UK based incentive schemes are helpful, but only go a small way to combating what was viewed by many as an overpriced offering on EVs generally. In the EU on the other hand, the discount schemes can be much more generous, with some based around income.

In France a less well off buyer can get a €7,700 discount off a Renault 5 for example.

In Germany, buyers of EVs receive a base subsidy of €3,000, with enhancements based on income and household size, leading up to €6 000 for lower-income households with children. And exemption from vehicle taxes until the end of 2035.

Italy (with one of the lowest take ups of EVs) just launched a new scheme whereby private individuals can receive up to €11,000 when purchasing a new BEV and scrapping an old Euro 5 or earlier internal-combustion vehicle.

So I imagine the European sales of EVs has taken off because of the more generous discounts available across the continent.

That leaves us with smaller, cheaper cars coming to the market. It surely doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out that most people didn't want/need £60k E/F segment cars - as most people didn't want E/F segment ICE cars. Once the smaller B/C segment cars have become available, combined with the discount schemes, and growing awareness of reduced running costs, then the market is changing from ICE to BEV.

 

[Bald Rick]

The increase in fuel prices can't really have hit the cyclical purchase of new cars yet in any significant way.

Anecdote alert - fuel prices certainly brought forward the purchase of an EV in this household at least. (Albeit not new). But hearing anecdotally (again) that second hand prices of revent EVs have been strong in the last 4-6 months.

 

[Snow1964]

The increase in fuel prices can't really have hit the cyclical purchase of new cars yet in any significant way.

Might not have changed the overall number of cars bought, but there is lots of evidence that it pushed up proportion changing to EVs.

Some motoring sites have reported secondhand EV prices easing up a bit, and sales being nearer 2 weeks rather than month average on car lots.

With many average mileage drivers reporting fuel savings of about £80 per month, (or getting on for £1000 per year) using overnight electricity, the extra cost for a car intending to keep for few years makes economic sense

 

[jon0844]

As demand for oil and gas increases into the autumn and winter, petrol and diesel prices are likely to creep up again. My local shell is almost at £1.70 per litre for petrol (I haven't passed my supermarket recently). Diesel is around £1.90.

Donald will continue to play the markets and escalate the Iran situation such that by November he can try and find a way to halt the mid-terms, so I think more people are going to realise it's time to switch.

Let's see how the percentages work out after the 76 plates arrive.

 

[cactustwirly]

As demand for oil and gas increases into the autumn and winter, petrol and diesel prices are likely to creep up again. My local shell is almost at £1.70 per litre for petrol (I haven't passed my supermarket recently). Diesel is around £1.90.

Donald will continue to play the markets and escalate the Iran situation such that by November he can try and find a way to halt the mid-terms, so I think more people are going to realise it's time to switch.

Let's see how the percentages work out after the 76 plates arrive.

Petrol is a different fraction of oil to heating oil, so will be more insulated to increase in demand for heating.

It all depends if the Iran conflict de-escalates, then the prices will drop.

I did a price comparison yesterday, looking at the capacity of a Tesla model 3 and the average public charger price, divided by the mileage to get the pence per mile.

I got 0.15p per mile, average rate within 2 miles of my house is £0.74kwh, according to ZapMap
My petrol is 0.18p per mile, noting it is a 3.0L so never going to be the most efficient.
Seems borderline at the moment, unless you're charging at home on cheap night tariffs

 

[jon0844]

Trump isn't doing anything to end things before November.

At home, gas that was 3-4p is 7.90p today (Octopus Tracker) and for those on the newest tracker, it's approaching 9p. And it's still August!

We're going to be hit left, right and centre for petrol, diesel, natural gas and heating oil.

My next investment will be a heat pump because I don't want to be reliant on fossil fuels as much as possible.

 

[75A]

and there you revealed what you are - an opinionated left winger who has no idea of the reality of modern life with kids and older people who DEPEND on the car for their livelihood and ability to provide a life for themselves and their family. there is NOTHING selfish about the need or desire to own a car.

Exactly

 

[Bletchleyite]

Exactly

It's all about context. If you live in rural Cumbria (for example) and own a large diesel SUV you're just sensible. If you live in central London and own one, you're selfish and inconsiderate - those vehicles cause immense harm in cities. Everywhere else and every other type of vehicle is on a continuum between the two, though it's more about how and where a vehicle is used than the simple ownership of it.

 

[75A]

Spot on. Here in rural Ireland a 4 x 4 is an absolute must
Nearest shop of anysort is 5 miles on mainly a single track road the Nearest Garage / Supermarket is 9.
The only Buses are for the Schoolkids to and from the Ferry. There's a Catholic School one side of the Lough and a Protestant one the other

 

[styles]

Sadly I’m one of them. I do about 20000 miles per year and about 12-14000 is for work trips. I’m on my own 99.9% of the time for that. What you can’t see is all the kit that is being carried in the boot of the car that I need on site. Another transport method simply wouldn’t be practical.

In terms of personal trips they’re slightly better but living in a rural area I can’t see any situation where the bus provision would improve enough for me to choose it. However, if cycling (or even walking) provision was improved it would massively reduce the number of mile solo trips I undertake to go the shops/doctors/etc in the local town (5 mile round trip). Currently I don’t ever cycle there because the road is too dangerous for me. The nearest railway station is there so also off limits. Because there is safe cycling route to the nearest city (a 22 mile round trip in a different direction) I do cycle there when I need to occasionally use the banks or solo shop there.

Do you have a red and yellow car?

But seriously, I'm not out here to advocate banning all cars or whatever. Some people have no feasible option but to drive, and sometimes that means driving 20k miles in a year. But I think we all have a responsibility to reduce it to what is necessary and consider alternatives for shorter trips.

My brother in law lives so rural with no public transport and frankly quite dangerous roads that effectively means all his trips are by car. I sympathise with that. But then the pollution from his car dissipates before it gets to anybody's lungs anyway so it doesn't really matter that much.

 

[jon81uk]

But a problem I have is that the growing dependency on cars was not stemmed when it could have been. We have over recent decades watched the growth of out of town shopping centres and entertainment venues. Ironically leaving town centres often to run down. This could/should have been controlled by planning authorities.

Instead we have public transport networks centred on redundant town centres (principally buses) and the need for people to own and operate a car.

Although TfL / London boroughs seem to have got over this issue a long time ago and run bus services to the more modern shopping parks, many "out-of-town" (they aren't really in London boroughs) shopping parks have multiple bis stops and several I went to were bus termini too.

I've since moved out of London and don't understand why County Councils and District Councils haven't realised this and designed bus infrastructure into retail parks. My current local council is rebuilding the town centre bus station, whilst granting permission for M&S to build on a new site with no dedicated bus stop.

 

[styles]

Although TfL / London boroughs seem to have got over this issue a long time ago and run bus services to the more modern shopping parks, many "out-of-town" (they aren't really in London boroughs) shopping parks have multiple bis stops and several I went to were bus termini too.

I believe this to be part of the motivation behind the Superloop services.

This goes well back. The public transport system has been designed to get people into central, rather than for those running errands around their local areas.

There's a whole chapter on it in the book Invisible Women (women still being the majority of caregivers, and often needing to run errands to family members, pharmacies, nurseries, etc).

Retrospectively changing this system in cities as built-up as London is very difficult.

 

[jon81uk]

I believe this to be part of the motivation behind the Superloop services.

This goes well back. The public transport system has been designed to get people into central, rather than for those running errands around their local areas.

There's a whole chapter on it in the book Invisible Women (women still being the majority of caregivers, and often needing to run errands to family members, pharmacies, nurseries, etc).

Retrospectively changing this system in cities as built-up as London is very difficult.

But that was my point, London has solved it. When I lived in East London it didn't matter a lot of shops were in a retail park as bus routes went to the retail park. TfL (or Newham) had realised that was the local high street now and it needed a reliable bus service. Also Asda was the bus terminus meaning it was straightforward to get there if you needed to.

 

[JamesT]

But that was my point, London has solved it. When I lived in East London it didn't matter a lot of shops were in a retail park as bus routes went to the retail park. TfL (or Newham) had realised that was the local high street now and it needed a reliable bus service. Also Asda was the bus terminus meaning it was straightforward to get there if you needed to.

Presumably this is a result of London not deregulating buses in the 80s? Other councils can build infrastructure, but can't force the bus companies to run services there unless they're willing to subsidise them. Whereas TfL specify the services.

 

[quantinghome]

Presumably this is a result of London not deregulating buses in the 80s? Other councils can build infrastructure, but can't force the bus companies to run services there unless they're willing to subsidise them. Whereas TfL specify the services.

Beat me to it! I think it's exactly this. Plus London has a lot more money to spend on buses in the first place.