WCR - Jacobite 2026

[fgwrich]

Let’s not turn this into yet another For / Against CDL debating thread please. There’s been enough of them and I think after all this time, most of us just want to see the Jacobite running in some form again without hearing the CDL debate.

 

[Bill57p9]

Agree with avoiding another CDL debate.
The Jacobite is currently running twice daily in full compliance with the law.
The current rolling stock may be lacking some authenticity however that could be overcome with investment in legally required safety modifications which were brought in after a substantial grace period.

 

[Tetragon213]

I have every sympathy with anyone trying to get away with not complying with idiotic rules.....

I don't see how a CDL requirement is "idiotic", especially when...

a) Everyone knew this was coming eventually, and everyone bar WCR took steps to prepare for this by installing CDL on a few sets in advance
b) WCR's system of stewards failed in catastrophic fashion when a passenger overpowered the steward to open a door mid-journey
c) A WCR charter left York with a door wide-open, which wouldn't have happened with CDL
d) The ORR found no evidence of an internal investigation, nor a Lessons Learned by WCR in the wake of that incident
e) Speaking of not learning lessons, WCR infamously has other, much more serious safety failings; being afaik the only operator to be banned, let alone banned twice. Wootton Bassett 2015 remains no less forgivable 11 years on.

I'm hoping they get it sorted for next year. I intend on booking a compartment with a few family members who are Potterheads, and doing that in a Mk2 doesn't have quite the same appeal as doing it in a classic Mk1.

 

[bluegoblin7]

c) A WCR charter left York with a door wide-open, which wouldn't have happened with CDL

This is false - there is no (generally) interlock between CDL systems and a locomotive on hauled stock of the type West Coast use. There is nothing to stop a train from moving with a door open, and this is safeguarded by other processes and procedures.

 

[Tetragon213]

This is false - there is no (generally) interlock between CDL systems and a locomotive on hauled stock of the type West Coast use. There is nothing to stop a train from moving with a door open, and this is safeguarded by other processes and procedures.

You'd suspect that the BIL that would be left illuminated, would be a bigger hint to the guard and dispatchers that something wasn't quite right.

It's pretty easy to miss a door handle being not quite right. A bit more difficult to miss a door being wide open, but I suppose it could happen. To miss an illuminated bright orange BIL, though? Practically impossible.

This is why I'm hoping that WCR sorts out the Mk1s. My family aren't into trains in the slightest, but are Potterheads. A ride in a Mk1 compo just like in Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone might be the only railtour I'll ever get to convince them to go on with me!

 

[LowLevel]

As mentioned above, 1990s BR style CDL is only there to lock a properly closed door shut, stop it from being opened inadvertently and then allow it to be unlocked by the guard when desired or by anyone using the egress/ingress in an emergency.

Rule number 1 for anyone dispatching trains fitted with that system whether they're platform staff or guard is never to assume a door is closed because the CDL lights etc will go out if the door isn't there at all, let alone open.

If you dispatch the train with a door on the catch or open then an insecure door will result.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Jul 2026 ==

You'd suspect that the BIL that would be left illuminated, would be a bigger hint to the guard and dispatchers that something wasn't quite right.

It's pretty easy to miss a door handle being not quite right. A bit more difficult to miss a door being wide open, but I suppose it could happen. To miss an illuminated bright orange BIL, though? Practically impossible.

This is why I'm hoping that WCR sorts out the Mk1s. My family aren't into trains in the slightest, but are Potterheads. A ride in a Mk1 compo just like in Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone might be the only railtour I'll ever get to convince them to go on with me!

The CDL light does not work in that way on BR CDL fitted stock. It goes out regardless once the guard has operated the door close button if the system is working. If it stays lit it's because the system has failed to operate usually because of flat batteries. If the door is not correctly shut but the system is working then the light will still go out.

If the door is locked out and isolated it also doesn't light up providing a visual cue that the door is locked out of use.

 

[Mag_seven]

Right enough about CDL please - its been done to death elsewhere. Lets get back to discussion about the WCR Jacobite 2026.

thanks

 

[Mcq]

Well done 'mod' - what matters is when is the ORR going to announce their decision, that affects both the Jacobite and other West Coast main line excursions.

 

[47286Dan]

This mornings Jacobite’s

98507 (45407) MBSL FTWILIAM 062Y61MG27 O * MALLAIG N
Coaches
5239, 5229, 99318, 9539, 5419, 5453, 5487

98571 (44871) MBSL FTWILIAM 062Y68ML27 O * MALLAIG N
Coaches
1860, 3232, 3333, 6054, 5985, 6158, 21266

 

[12C]

We travelled on the Jacobite last week, diesel hauled by 37685 due to the steam ban. We noticed that, as mentioned earlier, Mk1 99318 has been CDL fitted. However this coach was completely empty there and back with its doors labelled out of use, despite having visible CDL locks and hazard lights. Curious to know why this is? It seems strange to have a whole empty coach on such a lucrative train, which is showing as sold out on virtually every trip. Running an empty coach will be thousands of pounds in missed revenue each day for WCR as the demand is clearly there.

 

[Dave S 56F]

We travelled on the Jacobite last week, diesel hauled by 37685 due to the steam ban. We noticed that, as mentioned earlier, Mk1 99318 has been CDL fitted. However this coach was completely empty there and back with its doors labelled out of use, despite having visible CDL locks and hazard lights. Curious to know why this is? It seems strange to have a whole empty coach on such a lucrative train, which is showing as sold out on virtually every trip. Running an empty coach will be thousands of pounds in missed revenue each day for WCR as the demand is clearly there.

Possibly if this is the 1st C.D.L. coach with orange indicator lights is it out on light test minus passengers as back at 10A W.C.R.C. depot at Carnforth W.C.R. fitters could be fitting more C.D.L. to more M.K.1 T.S.O. carriages just a thought I'm only speculating also when I've wrote that.
and also if 2026 isent the year to see a rake of M.K.1 W.C.R. carriages possibly 2027 anyone do we think could be W.C.R. moment to shine with some M.K.1 C.D.L. carriages on the national rail network and a kettle like 45699 galatea pulling them?

 

[Sc07]

It is being reported that the ORR have reached a decision on WCR's application to run their Mk.1 stock without CDL in the interim whilst they retrofit their fleet with the system. It would seem (from the radio silence from WCR) that this decision has not fallen in their favour - thus it could be speculated that the ORR have demanded that CDL be fitted before any vehicles enter service, and no leeway is being given in the meantime.

web

railwayherald.com

 

[craigybagel]

It is being reported that the ORR have reached a decision on WCR's application to run their Mk.1 stock without CDL in the interim whilst they retrofit their fleet with the system. It would seem (from the radio silence from WCR) that this decision has not fallen in their favour - thus it could be speculated that the ORR have demanded that CDL be fitted before any vehicles enter service, and no leeway is being given in the meantime.

web

railwayherald.com

I love that even Railway herald are throwing shade at WCR here:

It should be noted however that the exemption applied for does not stop any operator from actually fitting Central Door Locking to its stock, which is a process that WCR could have undertaken at anytime in the past two-and-a-half years since its previous exemption was revoked by the ORR.

At the end of the day - why on earth would anyone trust WCR with any kind of exemption? They should consider themselves fortunate they're even allowed on the mainline at all

 

[Tetragon213]

Is there any expectation that they'll have the issues sorted for next year? I'm intending to book a compartment for a large trip when they get the Mk1s back in service.

 

[Isle of Mull]

Is there any expectation that they'll have the issues sorted for next year? I'm intending to book a compartment for a large trip when they get the Mk1s back in service.

Quite possibly, it depends how much they choose to do over the winter months

 

[3RDGEN]

At the end of the day - why on earth would anyone trust WCR with any kind of exemption?

The ORR for one does since WCRC have a Regulation 4 Exemption for running MKI's on the mainline, "https://www.orr.gov.uk/sites/defaul...lway-safety-regulations-1999-regulation-4.pdf". As do every other operator of "MKI's".

 

[117]

Is there any expectation that they'll have the issues sorted for next year? I'm intending to book a compartment for a large trip when they get the Mk1s back

The ORR for one does since WCRC have a Regulation 4 Exemption for running MKI's on the mainline, "https://www.orr.gov.uk/sites/defaul...lway-safety-regulations-1999-regulation-4.pdf". As do every other operator of "MKI's".

I f

The ORR for one does since WCRC have a Regulation 4 Exemption for running MKI's on the mainline, "https://www.orr.gov.uk/sites/defaul...lway-safety-regulations-1999-regulation-4.pdf". As do every other operator of "MKI's".

I’ve often wondered over the last couple of years throughout this whole debacle whether it’s not the CDL that’s the issue, it’s the spending money on mk1s. Especially when he has way more than anyone else, but is their future on the mainline guarenteed?

 

[3RDGEN]

The WCRC exemption is valid to 31/03/2028, but could be cancelled at anytime, so no guarentee beyond that.

 

[bluegoblin7]

A Reg 4 exemption is also a completely different kettle of fish to a Reg 5 exemption, with different standards, benchmarks and other things to follow.

Ultimately if you don't trust WCRC's Reg 4 exemption you probably shouldn't travel on any heritage railway ever again.

 

[marshlinker]

A Reg 4 exemption is also a completely different kettle of fish to a Reg 5 exemption, with different standards, benchmarks and other things to follow.

Ultimately if you don't trust WCRC's Reg 4 exemption you probably shouldn't travel on any heritage railway ever again.

Going off topic but Reg 4 requires improved crash pillars and buck eye lower shelf brackets to avoid the danger of over riding at higher speeds so doesn't have any relevance to operation at lower speeds (heritage railways)

 

[bluegoblin7]

Incorrect-ish: reg 4 doesn’t apply to heritage railways because it isn’t network rail infrastructure. A rough shunt at 25mph (or more…) can still cause issues to crash pillars, especially if there is underlying corrosion or other issues with the carriage body strength. There are plenty of heritage railway vehicles out there that are not as well maintained as they should be, and haven’t had any significant work done to them. Most of the work to get reg 4 compliance would have had to be done anyway to keep mark 1s on the mainline even if there weren’t restrictions on their use.

Frankly heritage lines should be doing this work on their vehicles and inspecting them, and that was my underlying point: there’s far ropier mark 1s out there.

 

[3RDGEN]

Going off topic but Reg 4 requires improved crash pillars and buck eye lower shelf brackets to avoid the danger of over riding at higher speeds so doesn't have any relevance to operation at lower speeds (heritage railways)

As per the ORR certificate; "have crash pillars of an equivalent or greater strength than the original British Rail design;" so there's no requirement for improvement on the original build. Mainline MkI's can remain the same matchwood design as when built.

 

[martin butler]

There is one way round it, as CDL isnt required above 25 mph, ORR should just say, ok yes, you can run without CDL, but no faster than 25 mph, and of course, just try getting paths at 25 mph, it's going to be nay on impossible, and the moment a West coast service breaks that speed limit, which it will, you pull their operating licence,

 

[D6130]

There is one way round it, as CDL isnt required above 25 mph, ORR should just say, ok yes, you can run without CDL, but no faster than 25 mph, and of course, just try getting paths at 25 mph, it's going to be nay on impossible, and the moment a West coast service breaks that speed limit, which it will, you pull their operating licence,

It shouldn't be a great problem running at a maximum speed of 25 mph between Fort William and Mallaig. Although the permitted line speed for loco-hauled trains is 40 mph to a point shortly before Glenfinnan viaduct - and then 30 mph thence to Mallaig - the schedules include waiting time at Glenfinnan and Arisaig, which should be able to absorb any slack in the schedule caused by a lower permitted line speed.

 

[martin butler]

It shouldn't be a great problem running at a maximum speed of 25 mph between Fort William and Mallaig. Although the permitted line speed for loco-hauled trains is 40 mph to a point shortly before Glenfinnan viaduct - and then 30 mph thence to Mallaig - the schedules include waiting time at Glenfinnan and Arisaig, which should be able to absorb any slack in the schedule caused by a lower permitted line speed.

I was thinking network wide, that it itself would render any argument against fitting CDL mute. but as you point out, it would solve a problem over using traditional MK1's on that route, the pathing to get them there though, would be interesting.

 

[Falcon1200]

It shouldn't be a great problem running at a maximum speed of 25 mph between Fort William and Mallaig.

Is it actually possible to path the trains at 25mph max without affecting Scotrail's services? I thought that had already been considered but ruled out.

the pathing to get them there though, would be interesting.

The stock between Carnforth and Fort William would be non-passenger services so CDL not an issue.

 

[3RDGEN]

The Regulation for CDL refers to line speed not train speed so they can't just run at 25mph on the Jacobite as line speed is in excess of 25mph in places between Fort William - Mallaig. NYMR require a Regulation 5 exemption to run none CDL fitted stock from Whitby - Grosmont even though they only run at 25mph as per Grosmont - Pickering.

Edit - Redulation 5 for CDL.

 

[Bill57p9]

It shouldn't be a great problem running at a maximum speed of 25 mph between Fort William and Mallaig. Although the permitted line speed for loco-hauled trains is 40 mph to a point shortly before Glenfinnan viaduct - and then 30 mph thence to Mallaig - the schedules include waiting time at Glenfinnan and Arisaig, which should be able to absorb any slack in the schedule caused by a lower permitted line speed.

With replanning I would expect this to be possible without impacting ScotRail: might need to leave earlier to ensure passing at Glenfinnan.

The relevent regulations apply to railways operating above 25mph rather than trains, the logic being around the risks of interaction between trains at higher speeds, hence why NYMR still require a regulation 5 exemption. This has been granted strictly limited to 25mph and to between Grosmont and Pickering, which is a single track section without passing places and therefore no interaction with other trains is possible.

The West Highland Line Extension is single track the with (slow speed) passing places apart from a short 40mph double track section by Inverlochy Yard.

 

[Swimbar]

The relevent regulations apply to railways operating above 25mph rather than trains, the logic being around the risks of interaction between trains at higher speeds, hence why NYMR still require a regulation 5 exemption. This has been granted strictly limited to 25mph and to between Grosmont and Pickering, which is a single track section without passing places and therefore no interaction with other trains is possible.

Regulation 5 exemption applies to Grosmont to Whitby not Pickering.

 

[Bill57p9]

Regulation 5 exemption applies to Grosmont to Whitby not Pickering.

Whitby is indeed what I intended to type...