prosecution threat after not presenting a railcard due to app not working

[moon_pie]

I was travelling for 1 stop on a train to Winchester in July, and was stopped on the train before I got off by a revenue ticket officer who asked for my ticket and evidence of my 26-30 railcard. I had just got a replacement phone after mine was stolen so I had the app but I hadn't yet added my railcard to it yet. When I tried to do this in front of her, the railcard app presented an error and would not let me add the railcard to the app. I showed the email code but this did not suffice, so she told me to write my details down on a form.

I was sent a letter a month later, asking for evidence of my railcard via email. I had by then added the railcard to the app and screenshotted the railcard being active on the app. However, this was apparently not good enough evidence, and someone responded asking to see the original email receipt of purchase. I had deleted this email a while ago to save on disk space, so I went back into my bank transactions and found the record of my purchasing the railcard. After sending this, it STILL was not accepted as sufficient evidence, and by then my railcard had actually expired. I called the Railcard company and asked if they could send me the original receipt of purchase, but apparently they could only do this for active railcards, so they informed me to fill out a subject request access form on the website.

I filled this form out, but they have not responded yet and said it will take up to 2 months to send to me. The prosecution officer I have been emailing said she will give me another week to send this to her (how gracious...) but I still don't have the evidence and I'm running out of time. What should I do???? This is the most kafkaesque thing to ever happen to me and I don't want to get fined for being innocent and having a railcard in the first place!!

(That is the last time I ever go to Winchester by train btw, so not worth it)

 

[WesternLancer]

I was travelling for 1 stop on a train to Winchester in July, and was stopped on the train before I got off by a revenue ticket officer who asked for my ticket and evidence of my 26-30 railcard. I had just got a replacement phone after mine was stolen so I had the app but I hadn't yet added my railcard to it yet. When I tried to do this in front of her, the railcard app presented an error and would not let me add the railcard to the app. I showed the email code but this did not suffice, so she told me to write my details down on a form.

I was sent a letter a month later, asking for evidence of my railcard via email. I had by then added the railcard to the app and screenshotted the railcard being active on the app. However, this was apparently not good enough evidence, and someone responded asking to see the original email receipt of purchase. I had deleted this email a while ago to save on disk space, so I went back into my bank transactions and found the record of my purchasing the railcard. After sending this, it STILL was not accepted as sufficient evidence, and by then my railcard had actually expired. I called the Railcard company and asked if they could send me the original receipt of purchase, but apparently they could only do this for active railcards, so they informed me to fill out a subject request access form on the website.

I filled this form out, but they have not responded yet and said it will take up to 2 months to send to me. The prosecution officer I have been emailing said she will give me another week to send this to her (how gracious...) but I still don't have the evidence and I'm running out of time. What should I do???? This is the most kafkaesque thing to ever happen to me and I don't want to get fined for being innocent and having a railcard in the first place!!

(That is the last time I ever go to Winchester by train btw, so not worth it)

welcome

Frustrating and you have my sympathy

Is there anything from your bank / bank statements that can clearly show what time (as well as the date) that the transaction to purchase the Railcard was made. If not can that be sourced by asking your back for it?

That time needs to be before the time of the train you got on (ie before you boarded the train - not before you were asked to show a railcard at some point in the journey, given they seem to be playing hardball over this).

Others here might also want some extra info from you such as
- where was the journey from?
- who did you buy the railcard from? (which retailer)
- which train company is involved? - is this SWR you are dealing with or another one (eg Cross Country Trains)

It's possible that it may help to see copies of the exchanges you have had with the railway company you mention (but remove any personal details and ref numbers before uploading anything) so that people here can see exactly what they are saying to you in their refusals to accept the evidence you are trying to supply.

 

[moon_pie]

Thank you, I think I should be the one prosecuting them for wasting my time tbh

That is helpful. The bank statement only states the date of purchase, so I can try asking my bank for the time too.

Some more info:
~ The journey was a Cross Country train from Southampton Airport Parkway to Winchester.
~ I bought the railcard from the official Railcard company website (never again)
~ The train it happened on was Cross Country Trains but it is the main revenue protection department I have been emailing.

Here is the email they sent after I sent over my bank transaction proof of purchase

 

[Titfield]

If the railcard has now expired, then surely this proves that the railcard in the app was valid at the time of the journey?

Have you quite clearly provided a timeline ie date railcard purchased, date of stop and date of card expiry?

 

[pwharley]

Is there anything from your bank / bank statements that can clearly show what time (as well as the date) that the transaction to purchase the Railcard was made. If not can that be sourced by asking your back for it?

That time needs to be before the time of the train you got on (ie before you boarded the train - not before you were asked to show a railcard at some point in the journey, given they seem to be playing hardball over this).

I can't see the relevance of this.

The O.P. states his/her railcard expired this month, so it must have been purchased August 2025 (or August 2023, if a 3-year railcard) - well before the journey described.

O.P. - The screenshot should have been enough to get you out of the situation with the "forgotten railcard" policy. I suggest you make a complaint to XC customer services about the way in which the case has been handled.

 

[Haywain]

~ I bought the railcard from the official Railcard company website (never again)

It will therefore have a record of your railcard on that website. It won't show the purchase date, but it will show how long it was issued for and in what format.

 

[moon_pie]

This is the screenshot I sent them, while it was active, which was not enough for them:

It will therefore have a record of your railcard on that website. It won't show the purchase date, but it will show how long it was issued for and in what format.

They specifically wanted the purchase date and time. I called the railcard company and they just pointed me to the subject access form because they can't issue out purchase confirmation emails on expired railcards

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Monday at 16:35 ==

I can't see the relevance of this.

The O.P. states his/her railcard expired this month, so it must have been purchased August 2025 (or August 2023, if a 3-year railcard) - well before the journey described.

O.P. - The screenshot should have been enough to get you out of the situation with the "forgotten railcard" policy. I suggest you make a complaint to XC customer services about the way in which the case has been handled.

I will definitely be complaining - the emails are being sent to the revenue protection department and not specifically the train company though. I also asked her if there is somebody else I can speak to about this and she ignored it.

 

[Haywain]

This is the screenshot I sent them, while it was active, which was not enough for them:

That isn't a screenshot of the railcard.

 

[moon_pie]

If the railcard has now expired, then surely this proves that the railcard in the app was valid at the time of the journey?

Have you quite clearly provided a timeline ie date railcard purchased, date of stop and date of card expiry?

Date railcard purchased: August 8th 2025
Date of stop: ?? not sure, some time in July 2026
Date of railcard expiry: August 8th 2026

 

[thecrofter]

That isn't a screenshot of the railcard.

You can't screenshot the actual photo railcard - not on an iPhone anyway. You get a blank screen.

 

[moon_pie]

You can't screenshot the actual photo railcard - not on an iPhone anyway. You get a blank screen.

Yes it wouldn't let me screenshot the actual photo railcard on my phone.

 

[Haywain]

Yes it wouldn't let me screenshot the actual photo railcard on my phone.

You need to take a photo of it with another phone then.

 

[WesternLancer]

I can't see the relevance of this.

The O.P. states his/her railcard expired this month, so it must have been purchased August 2025 (or August 2023, if a 3-year railcard) - well before the journey described.

O.P. - The screenshot should have been enough to get you out of the situation with the "forgotten railcard" policy. I suggest you make a complaint to XC customer services about the way in which the case has been handled.

Point well made on using the expiry date

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Monday at 17:07 ==

Thank you, I think I should be the one prosecuting them for wasting my time tbh

That is helpful. The bank statement only states the date of purchase, so I can try asking my bank for the time too.

Some more info:
~ The journey was a Cross Country train from Southampton Airport Parkway to Winchester.
~ I bought the railcard from the official Railcard company website (never again)
~ The train it happened on was Cross Country Trains but it is the main revenue protection department I have been emailing.

Here is the email they sent after I sent over my bank transaction proof of purchase

View attachment 210209

OK - so is it ITAL on behalf of Cross Country you are dealing with?

They are extremely difficult to deal with from what we see here - what they are saying to you does not surprise me in terms of them not accepting what you have said

I think you are going to need to push back on this in very clear terms - such that I suspect it would be best if you draft a response to them and then make sure you post it here for people to help check and improve for you before you send it to them

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Monday at 17:09 ==

I will definitely be complaining - the emails are being sent to the revenue protection department and not specifically the train company though. I also asked her if there is somebody else I can speak to about this and she ignored it.

My advice is do not get distracted into complaining to customer services at this stage (by all means do that in due course) for now focus on dealing with the revenue protection department (or ITAL if it is them on behalf of XC trains)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Monday at 17:10 ==

You need to take a photo of it with another phone then.

Yes, OP should do this and include it in a draft response to the railway.

 

[Watershed]

Legally speaking, if you're unable to show a Railcard to support your Railcard discounted ticket, you are travelling without a valid ticket. If you board a train without a valid ticket (i.e. you would have been unable to show your Railcard at that time) you are committing an offence under Byelaw 18 of the Railway Byelaws.

The train company does not need to prove that you avoided the fare, or even had any intention of doing so, to successfully bring a Byelaw 18 prosecution. It's like speeding, where it doesn't matter whether it is accidental - you are deemed guilty just through the action of ticketless boarding.

As such you're not in a particularly strong position to negotiate and from the train company's perspective, they are being 'generous' by letting you off if you retrospectively show your Railcard, let alone giving you extra time to do so. They have 6 months from the date of the incident to bring a prosecution, which is why they won't allow the process to be strung out for too long.

I sympathise with your frustration and I think the powers the train companies have in these kinds of situations are disproportionate, but you have to recognise that legally speaking they are in the right and work on that basis.

I would focus on trying all avenues to get the proof of Railcard purchase. It is very unfortunate that you deleted your emails - you will appreciate that this is exactly the kind of thing that someone who hadn't actually bought a Railcard might say. That said, I would have thought the screenshot of the Railcard website showing your Railcard details should be accepted as it states your name and the expiry date, from which it is obvious whether or not it was valid on the day of travel.

I would focus on getting RDG (who operate the Railcard website that you appear to have used) to process your Subject Access Request. They have a month to comply with it, which I appreciate might be too long anyway. They can't extend it to two months unless it is a "complex" request. I can't see how that would be the case here so they should really be providing a response within that period.

 

[vinnym70]

The part here that bothers me is that the TOC / ITAL can't seem to check Railcard validity themselves. I know the onus is on the holder of the railcard to show they have it but asking for bank statements as proof of purchase from a reasonable time back seems disproportionate when you'd expect the TOC / ITAL to be able to ask the authority that provides railcards to give - at least - a view as to whether there might be a valid railcard in play.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

hey specifically wanted the purchase date and time.

What is the relevance of the purchase date and time? If they are told the expiry date and that it was in date when it should have been inspected, the purchase date would have been approximately either one year or three years earlier.

 

[robbeech]

Any reasonable train operating company or third party company acting on behalf of them would use the details you have provided to see that a rail card was held at the time. Unless the person reviewing this case has never seen a railcard before and has zero understanding of the job they’re being paid to do (which is unlikely, though not impossible on the railway in 2026) they WILL know and be able to deduce that you did indeed have a valid railcard at the time you were stopped.

As this is not a reasonable company we can safely assume they are being deliberately difficult in an attempt to extract money from you, as is the sole purpose of their contract with the train operating company.

Whilst this is unhelpful to you it should alert you to their attitude which in turn should allow you to tailor your response accordingly.

I do find the concept of running out of space for emails to the point that emails from less than a year ago have to be deleted a little challenging. Perhaps you get more emails than I do, but either way it’s clear that this will contribute substantially to your problems.

As @Watershed says above, you’re not in a strong starting position so you’ll need to be careful how you respond. I suspect the best result you can hope for is a bill for the full undiscounted fare.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Monday at 18:19 ==

The part here that bothers me is that the TOC / ITAL can't seem to check Railcard validity themselves. I know the onus is on the holder of the railcard to show they have it but asking for bank statements as proof of purchase from a reasonable time back seems disproportionate when you'd expect the TOC / ITAL to be able to ask the authority that provides railcards to give - at least - a view as to whether there might be a valid railcard in play.

They can, but it’s not in their interest to check it if they can go through the passenger’s travel history and send them an out of court settlement for the undiscounted fare for every single journey they have ever made which I suspect will be what they try to do.

 

[AlterEgo]

Perhaps TOCs are getting wise to the fact you can just knock up screenshots of bank statements and railcard receipts on free software or Gemini.

 

[robbeech]

Perhaps TOCs are getting wise to the fact you can just knock up screenshots of bank statements and railcard receipts on free software or Gemini.

Indeed.

In reality there is absolutely no reason why you shouldn’t be able to see every (digital) railcard you’ve ever purchased with a particular supplier, current or expired, with its number, with its start and end dates, with its passenger name(s) and there is no reason why that information shouldn’t be able to be sent securely and effectively to a TOC or revenue team but as I said above, developing things like that reduces the possibility of them extorting cash from passengers who have made a bit of a cock up but have not on reality done the railway out of any money. For they are the passengers you want to charge, you’ll never get a penny from those deliberately evading the fare but those honest people who have made a mistake will cough up hundreds of pounds after being frightened into it.

 

[Watershed]

Indeed.

In reality there is absolutely no reason why you shouldn’t be able to see every (digital) railcard you’ve ever purchased with a particular supplier, current or expired, with its number, with its start and end dates, with its passenger name(s) and there is no reason why that information shouldn’t be able to be sent securely and effectively to a TOC or revenue team but as I said above, developing things like that reduces the possibility of them extorting cash from passengers who have made a bit of a cock up but have not on reality done the railway out of any money. For they are the passengers you want to charge, you’ll never get a penny from those deliberately evading the fare but those honest people who have made a mistake will cough up hundreds of pounds after being frightened into it.

Details of all Railcards bought are also held in central industry databases, although Railcards are not linked to a particular purchaser. But it should be readily possible to see whether there is a Railcard held under a particular name. If the details match the Railcard type and approximate date of purchase that the passenger claims, it's pretty clear that it is a valid Railcard.

The problem is that the industry would rather put the burden of proof on the passenger - basically because it can.

 

[gembercannelle]

1. I am not sure which app the OP uses, but if the same info is available via a website, including the railcard data, it should be absolutely possible to make a screenshot of this info. There is no technology a website can use to prevent screenshot capture.
2. Depending on the bank/building society in question, OP could request a copy of the statement printed, stamped, and signed in a branch, or a copy of the statement delivered to a UK address. All banks offer this facility for the purpose of visa applications. ITAL, or a train company, can verify directly with the financial institution independently that such a document was issued. (All correspondence has unique ID).
3. I believe that email has been accidentally erased to clear up inbox. Some providers offer rather limited space and some people tend to send huge emails: a friend of mine sent me by email a 12Mb video of his dog training.

 

[Watershed]

1. I am not sure which app the OP uses, but if the same info is available via a website, including the railcard data, it should be absolutely possible to make a screenshot of this info. There is no technology a website can use to prevent screenshot capture.

Railcards cannot be displayed on a website. The purchase details can be, but not the Railcard itself.

If you buy a digital one it is only possible to view within the app belonging to the company from whom you bought it - e.g. the RDG Railcard app, Trainline, Trainpal, TrainSplit or the relevant TOC. Retailers are not allowed to provide PDF or Apple/Google Wallet versions due to concerns of these being shared easily. They are also required to prevent screenshots, where permitted by the operating system.

If you buy a physical Railcard then it is either a CCST [Credit Card Sized Ticket] if bought at a ticket office, or plastic (but CCST-sized) if bought from the RDG Railcard website.

2. Depending on the bank/building society in question, OP could request a copy of the statement printed, stamped, and signed in a branch, or a copy of the statement delivered to a UK address. All banks offer this facility for the purpose of visa applications. ITAL, or a train company, can verify directly with the financial institution independently that such a document was issued. (All correspondence has unique ID).

Yes, this is worth a try as well. It sounds like ITAL might not be interested but there is no harm in getting it.

 

[gembercannelle]

Railcards cannot be displayed on a website. The purchase details can be, but not the Railcard itself.
If you buy a digital one it is only possible to view within the app belonging to the company from whom you bought it - e.g. the RDG Railcard app, Trainline, Trainpal, TrainSplit or the relevant TOC. Retailers are not allowed to provide PDF or Apple/Google Wallet versions due to concerns of these being shared easily. They are also required to prevent screenshots, where permitted by the operating system.

I have just checked my trip account on the website. It does have transaction ID for my expired railcard, but no railcard details. I think I would contact their customer support and request assistance with obtaining railcard number. ITAL may or may not be interested, but should it go to court, the court is likely to take different viewpoint.

 

[AlterEgo]

I have just checked my trip account on the website. It does have transaction ID for my expired railcard, but no railcard details. I think I would contact their customer support and request assistance with obtaining railcard number. ITAL may or may not be interested, but should it go to court, the court is likely to take different viewpoint.

Why would they? It is not disputed that an offence took place.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The problem here is that you are having to deal with ITAL. You would have more luck talking to a brick wall. My cat has puked up hairballs with more intelligence than the ITAL prosecutions administrators.

I would suggest emailing ITAL one last time, copying in CrossCountry's customer relations team. This needs to be in words of one syllable: you had a railcard on the date, here is evidence of the railcard expiring after the date you were stopped, here is a bank statement corroborating the information from the Railcard website. ITAL may not see sense but hopefully XC customer relations might.

There is no reason why the screenshot from the Railcard website should not be accepted. All the details that are needed are there: the customer name, email address, Railcard number, and Railcard expiry date.

If you go into "profile" at the top of the screen, you will also see an option for "my orders." Go into there and you can display all your previous orders.



(NB mine show £0.00 paid because I always use Tesco Clubcard vouchers to buy mine)

You therefore have one screenshot showing when you bought the Railcard and one screenshot showing when it expired. You'd hope that even ITAL's highly trained and intelligent administrators would be able to understand that.

Also worth noting that XC have a specific FAQ on this matter https://www.crosscountrytrains.co.u...ged-for-a-new-ticket-can-i-apply-for-a-refund:

You must carry your Railcard with you at all times when travelling with a ticket purchased with your Railcard. This means that if you cannot produce your Railcard for the ticket inspector, you'll need to pay for a full-price ticket or be liable for a penalty fare.

If you forgot your Railcard and it was valid on the day you travelled, we can send you Rail Travel Vouchers to the value of the extra ticket you bought on-board. To claim your vouchers, just send your new and original tickets as well as a copy of your Railcard (including the Photocard) to customer.relations@crosscountrytrains.co.uk.

 

[gembercannelle]

Why would they? It is not disputed that an offence took place.

Because the offence in question ought to be dealt with under "forgotten railcard" policy.

 

[Haywain]

Because the offence in question ought to be dealt with under "forgotten railcard" policy.

Which is dealt with by supplying an image of the actual railcard, something which the OP has so far failed to do.

 

[gembercannelle]

Which is dealt with by supplying an image of the actual railcard, something which the OP has so far failed to do.

Out of curiosity, how does one supposed to do that, if the app intentionally prohibits screenshots?... not everyone has access to a second phone.

 

[AlterEgo]

Because the offence in question ought to be dealt with under "forgotten railcard" policy.

Not according to the wording of the policy, which only applies to refunds of new tickets or penalty fares. Either way an offence has been committed, which is not in dispute.

 

[CharlieSpotted]

It seems to me that the industry needs to agree to either:

1. Allow the taking of screenshots of railcards in official apps, and accept the consequent risk of fraud, or
2. Remove the requirement to provide a 'copy' of the railcard as proof that one is held, and provide some other method of proving that a railcard is held.

It seems such an obvious disconnect that's happening here, and something that is surely solveable.