European Sleeper experience

[AlterEgo]

808 minutes late, spectacular tardiness. Sigh.

 

[DanielB]

It even left Amersfoort Central 833 minutes late according to the open data. Should arrive any moment at Amsterdam Central now, almost gave the passengers two nights of sleep for the price of one.

 

[Bemined]

It entered the country 818 minutes late but probably got held up somewhere at it ended up 831 minutes late in Amsterdam.

 

[MisterM]

Some equivalent of AWS failure?

That wouldn’t result in a 40km/h speed limit, but 80km/h with a trainmanager in the cab with access to the emergency stop button. Not optimal but not the end of the world for a night train anyway I feel.

For an PZB outage that is. Unfortunately had this with two separate trains on the same day once

 

[AdamWW]

It even left Amersfoort Central 833 minutes late according to the open data. Should arrive any moment at Amsterdam Central now, almost gave the passengers two nights of sleep for the price of one.

I managed that on Amtrak once. Should have arrived in the afternoon and didn't get in until early the next morning. I didn't get my bed made up for the second night though...

 

[dub_boi]

As a passenger on ES453 tonight from Amsterdam, I should have checked this forum before I left the bar I was in for Centraal station. There’s a lot more information available here than from ES or NS!

 

[DanielB]

At the moment train 453 has an expected delay of 70 minutes: https://treinposities.nl/ritinfo/20260817/453

 

[dub_boi]

At the moment train 453 has an expected delay of 70 minutes: https://treinposities.nl/ritinfo/20260817/453

We left about 70 minutes late after a chaotic boarding process as the train was running in reverse order to the composition on the ES website. Hygiene standards could be better…

 

[popeter45]

does anybody know why ES have such all over the place carriage placement that seems too be different every trip?
you would expect a simple order of sleeper-couchette-seated but instead they seem to sandwich the sleeper carriages between couchette on both sides and sometimes a seated coach between couchettes themselves

 

[danshrimp]

The below is one explanation I've heard from ES staff, but I haven't seen a definitive answer anywhere.

Historically I've heard (no idea where from now, so take with a pinch of salt) that ES blame ČD for this - something along the lines that they hand over to ČD for the Czech portion of the journey, and that the train routinely gets handed back to them the next day jumbled up. But that doesn't explain why this happens on the Paris-Berlin route! Unless they're similarly not in control of how the train gets stored in Paris, or something.

 

[LUYMun]

Not sure if anyone else is aware of this but I’ve been told about a website “Where is the European Sleeper” that was created supposedly in light of European Sleeper’s delays to track the progress of their services in real time alongside the stock composition. Should be interesting to look at as we progress.

https://whereisthe.es/

 

[Krokodil]

Not sure if anyone else is aware of this but I’ve been told about a website “Where is the European Sleeper” that was created supposedly in light of European Sleeper’s delays to track the progress of their services in real time alongside the stock composition. Should be interesting to look at as we progress.

https://whereisthe.es/

Well I'm glad that I wasn't one of the passengers who would have been waiting on the platform at Amsterdam Centraal until 3am this morning for the eastbound train

 

[jpl]

Not sure if anyone else is aware of this but I’ve been told about a website “Where is the European Sleeper” that was created supposedly in light of European Sleeper’s delays to track the progress of their services in real time alongside the stock composition. Should be interesting to look at as we progress.

https://whereisthe.es/

As a software developer, I would to love have my hands on that level of detail out of every train in Europe...

I presume the developers of this particular app have used both open and closed source data sources behind the scenes. There is no official open API for real-time data of trains in Czechia, for example. Also, in Europe many TOCs are particularly keen to NOT include the numbers of rolling stock in their open data, because that is deemed commercially sensitive information. It is just weird how much information that web app is able to collect and present to the world at large.

I hope that the recent developments in EU railway regulations will have a positive effect on the transparency of European railways.

 

[doc7austin]

When the loco breaks down, it is the nightmare. As the loco is planed to run all the way all across border, loosing the loco, means the entire journey is not recoverable anymore.

 

[AdamWW]

When the loco breaks down, it is the nightmare. As the loco is planed to run all the way all across border, loosing the loco, means the entire journey is not recoverable anymore.

On the other hand they are only relying on one locomotive turning up and running properly, rather than several.

I find it a little hard to see planned engine changes as increasing reliability. If a locomotive fails completely it doesn't get as far as the next engine though I suppose if a fault means it can't run at full speed then it doesn't affect the full journey.

 

[danshrimp]

As a software developer, I would to love have my hands on that level of detail out of every train in Europe...

I presume the developers of this particular app have used both open and closed source data sources behind the scenes. There is no official open API for real-time data of trains in Czechia, for example. Also, in Europe many TOCs are particularly keen to NOT include the numbers of rolling stock in their open data, because that is deemed commercially sensitive information. It is just weird how much information that web app is able to collect and present to the world at large.

I hope that the recent developments in EU railway regulations will have a positive effect on the transparency of European railways.

It's made by an employee of ES (https://blahaj.social/@maartje), albeit in a personal capacity, so I suppose they have a headstart in finding the right data. Supposedly it's based on open data though, and it's fully open source, so if anyone fancied doing some digging they could probably find out where that data is coming from: https://github.com/meyskens/where-is-the-es. It's certainly impressive.

 

[Jealgu]

Vanaf 2028 nachttrein van Brussel, via Nederland en Kopenhagen, naar Malmö - samenwerking European Sleeper en RDC

European Sleeper wil in samenwerking met het Duitse spoorbedrijf RDC een nachttrein gaan rijden tussen Brussel en het Zweedse Malmö. De nieuwe nachtverbind

www.treinreiziger.nl

Brussels-Malmo, via Amsterdam and Copenhagen, in the making for 2028. The article also mentions that the Barcelona connection should go ahead in 2028 as well.

 

[riceuten]

Vanaf 2028 nachttrein van Brussel, via Nederland en Kopenhagen, naar Malmö - samenwerking European Sleeper en RDC

European Sleeper wil in samenwerking met het Duitse spoorbedrijf RDC een nachttrein gaan rijden tussen Brussel en het Zweedse Malmö. De nieuwe nachtverbind

www.treinreiziger.nl

Brussels-Malmo, via Amsterdam and Copenhagen, in the making for 2028. The article also mentions that the Barcelona connection should go ahead in 2028 as well.

Wouldn't it behove them to make sure their existing routes are functioning properly ? I strongly suspect they are starting new routes to keep money flowing in, rather than improve and maintain their existing services

 

[Jealgu]

Well, yes, the need money flowing in to keep existing. I am sure they work on improves where they can. It is, however weird to insist they should be only focused on improving theor existing services. As earlier explained to you in this thread, based on both customer reviews and delay data European Sleeper performs better than the average night train operator in Europe.

 

[danshrimp]

Looks like the article's been taken down now, but good news if true.

I did idly speculate about such a thing a few months ago when RDC took over Berlin-Stockholm but reduced the frequency. (And I see we finally have details of that train composition now.)

The other day I got thinking - apropos of this shot of the two trains having a rare meetup - about whether there's a world in which the Berlin-Stockholm EuroNight falls into European Sleeper's hands. My thinking was: at the end of July SJ are pulling out and RDC are going it alone, but RDC don't have a lot of experience or international profile as a public-facing train operator, and ES already run trains using RDC stock and staff, so it would be a natural continuation of the current arrangement. Add to this that ES have been talking about expanding to a Brussels/Amsterdam-Stockholm route eventually, so Stockholm is in their sights - in fact, RDC said they would probably reduce the frequency of the Berlin-Stockholm route when they take over, which might free up stock to either add to existing ES routes or to run to Stockholm from Brussels/Amsterdam instead on some days of the week, fulfilling everyone's ambitions.

However, almost as if they heard me starting to speculate, today RDC have revealed a website and a booking tool for their new EN Berlin-Stockholm in which they do in fact appear to be going it alone. 3x/week with only 2x to Berlin, 1x only going as far as Hamburg. So I guess that's that. Perhaps ES aren't ready for it yet but in time they'll integrate - either way it looks like some RDC stock will be released.

Running the stock to a different destination from Sweden on the off days of the Berlin route makes a lot of sense, and presumably RDC have either decided that they don't want to run another route all by themselves, or just that it fits European Sleeper's network better. Yet to be seen what the collaboration actually looks like - whether it is run by RDC (a la Berlin-Stockholm) but with a ES label, or run by ES renting RDC stock (a la Paris-Berlin).

Either way, as to the question of whether ES should be looking to make more money or focus on their existing services, I'm sure they would argue that to improve their services they need more money! Especially given that the only long term solution to most of their problems is to procure their own rolling stock which doesn't come cheap or quick.

 

[Jealgu]

RDC is not going to run everyday, but the plan to run with much bigger trains in the high season. So there is not much, if any, extra rolling stock available. The article mentioned luxury compartments with double beds, so they are thinking of running with Mun sleepers. There was a batch of Jernbacher couchettes from OBB for sale earlier this year, with some becoming available in 2028, that could be the reason that they want to start at that time.
The article about the new connection is offline now, probably published a bit to early, but this source is generally reliable.

 

[rvdborgt]

Looks like the article's been taken down now

Jon Worth still had it open in a browser tab and created a PDF.

 

[kaspertron]

Wouldn't it behove them to make sure their existing routes are functioning properly ? I strongly suspect they are starting new routes to keep money flowing in, rather than improve and maintain their existing services

worked for Ryanair.

 

[riceuten]

worked for Ryanair.

Slightly different scale. And I believe they nearly went bump very early on for precisely this reason

 

[kaspertron]

Slightly different scale. And I believe they nearly went bump very early on for precisely this reason

I admit the analogy isn't perfect. But isn't a larger network more adept to dealing with disruption? I would imagine that European Sleeper's plan is that an expanded network will help their existing routes to "function properly". It's much more economically viable to have a few spare carriages (and staff) ready and waiting in Amsterdam in case of problems if you've got 6 routes operating from there than if you've got 3.

 

[danshrimp]

The email I received from ES advertising the Malmö route was followed an hour and a half later by an email advertising a "new bond opportunity coming soon". I thought this is why they might be keen to get the word out about the new route as early as possible!

 

[Fragezeichnen]

It's made by an employee of ES (https://blahaj.social/@maartje), albeit in a personal capacity, so I suppose they have a headstart in finding the right data. Supposedly it's based on open data though, and it's fully open source, so if anyone fancied doing some digging they could probably find out where that data is coming from: https://github.com/meyskens/where-is-the-es. It's certainly impressive.

I had a look. For Belgium and Czechia public data is used, for Germany, Netherlands and France an API key is required(not included).
For Germany at least, to my knowledge, DB internal API keys are not available to the general public at any price, but issued to organizations judged to have a legitimate need for them and limited to only the needed services.
There is also a data source at an unknown URL known simply as "API with accurate composition", so presumably the ES internal service.

Wouldn't it behove them to make sure their existing routes are functioning properly ? I strongly suspect they are starting new routes to keep money flowing in, rather than improve and maintain their existing services

European Sleeper is not actually a train company, in the same way FlixBus is not a bus company. All rolling stock, train operations and operational staff is provided by subcontractors. They're responsible for sales, ticketing and marketing, none of which seem to be the pain points.
So I guess you could argue problems with one route aren't really relevant at all to launching another route with different subcontractors.

 

[BRX]

I'm fairly sure one of the stated aims of their recent fund raising excercises was to take operations in house though.

 

[riceuten]

European Sleeper is not actually a train company, in the same way FlixBus is not a bus company. All rolling stock, train operations and operational staff is provided by subcontractors. They're responsible for sales, ticketing and marketing, none of which seem to be the pain points.
So I guess you could argue problems with one route aren't really relevant at all to launching another route with different subcontractors.

Well, they tend to wait to be threatened with legal action before giving you a refund. Which leads me to believe they have cashflow issues. And they seem to just run any old train they can regardless of what they've sold. So there's that.

 

[jpl]

It's made by an employee of ES (https://blahaj.social/@maartje), albeit in a personal capacity, so I suppose they have a headstart in finding the right data. Supposedly it's based on open data though, and it's fully open source, so if anyone fancied doing some digging they could probably find out where that data is coming from: https://github.com/meyskens/where-is-the-es. It's certainly impressive.

Thank you for pointing me into the right direction. Much appreciated. I can see now that most of the sources are open. I wanted to see something openly licensed, though. However, this is something what I initially did here in Finland years ago, scraping data from any open sources available (skipping all the licensing stuff). Maybe in the future we can have EU-wide openly licensed train running information available for reuse.