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Getting passengers to spread out along the platform

KevinTurvey

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A lot of this behavior happens in the north of England because of the pacer/sprinter mentality when a 30/40m train stops at a 200m+ platform, especially at the busier stations you would not get a seat if you spread along the platform, or perhaps even be able to board. Although most trains now are a lot longer than they used to be, passenger behavior continues as if it was 20/30/40 years ago, but there are often short forms.

One thing that has got worse is the crowding close to the doors. Do people think that blocking the alighting passengers helps them get on board any faster? Chester is a case in point because of the relatively large step down to the platform (especially was with 175s) you need a larger landing area so as not to risk headbutting passengers waiting to board!
 
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The exile

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Always wondered why people don't move down the platform, and i'm talking regular commuters not occasional travellers. When i used to commute Birmingham-Worcester, on the train home (back in the days when a 2 car Class 150 that stank of damp was considered fine in rush hour) there were the same people who every night used to go up the stairs at Foregate St and stay there, then having to fight to get on the train in the crowd that had formed. Yet if you walked a short distance down the platform you could get on the train easily...
At all 3 stations involved in my daily commute there are frequent last minute platform changes that don’t just entail turning round and facing the other way. Little surprise that those in the know tend to hang around the stairs (or the staff info screens) till a change is physically impossible.
 

NCT

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At all 3 stations involved in my daily commute there are frequent last minute platform changes that don’t just entail turning round and facing the other way. Little surprise that those in the know tend to hang around the stairs (or the staff info screens) till a change is physically impossible.

Is this UK or Germany?
 

saismee

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One thing that has got worse is the crowding close to the doors. Do people think that blocking the alighting passengers helps them get on board any faster? Chester is a case in point because of the relatively large step down to the platform (especially was with 175s) you need a larger landing area so as not to risk headbutting passengers waiting to board!
I did notice that Chester had an almost knee-height step onto the train. I'm very glad I choose to travel off-peak.
 

BrianW

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Over 150 contributions to this thread now, and no real consensus; indeed a lot of conflicting issues, including:
- 'idiocy' of Jo Public- ie OTHER people, and related disrespect for them
- trains of varying length
- stations of differing designs; similarly platforms
- lack of cover from rain (who will pay?)
- lack of information/ too much 'information'
- late platform changes

Might I suggest:
- 'the railway' must know ALL this stuff
- there must be a 'best way' to make announcements that achieve the desired result
- some people are infrequent travellers, some are hard of hearing/ slow to move/ nervous about late changes, crush loadings, getting on/off ok
- longer trains with more space (again, who will pay!)

Key is real customer care!
 

ox_chap

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Possibly the most idiotic situation is where, at massive expense, a station is made disabled accessible with very expensive lifts. Only to then have all trains stop at the end of the platform, and where the lift is at the other end.

For example, at Lewisham, the down Bexleyheath platform, if a 4-car train stops at the far end of the platform, it is an 8-car walk from the disabled lifts to the train.

I get there is a safety issue of a long train stopping short and the doors opened. But there must be a technical solution to that. Trains are big things, and a sensor must be able to work out if you have a rear unit not in a platform, which then overrides the open door button.

Or, even simpler: given the train departure information screens know the train length ("this train is made of four carriages"), can't the stopping boards light up a bit to show which one is correct?
 

fandroid

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The stations on my line have entrances at different points in relation to the platforms. If I expect it to be busy I try to anticipate where all those passengers already on the train are seated. It's relatively easy with a busy weekend down train out of Waterloo, as I know that most passengers there will have entered the platform near the rear of the train.
 

birchesgreen

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At all 3 stations involved in my daily commute there are frequent last minute platform changes that don’t just entail turning round and facing the other way. Little surprise that those in the know tend to hang around the stairs (or the staff info screens) till a change is physically impossible.
Not something that really happens very often at Foregate Street though.
 

Haywain

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idiocy' of Jo Public- ie OTHER people, and related disrespect for them
I guess you've never worked in a public facing role.
some people are infrequent travellers, some are hard of hearing/ slow to move/ nervous about late changes, crush loadings, getting on/off ok
Some are deliberately awkward, and some really are terminally stupid.
 

BeijingDave

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I doubt many casual travellers even clock the signs for where certain trains should stop, let alone understand them, especially when there's different stopping points for different classes.
Exactly. And I have had an old lady ask me if 'This is Platform 3?' pointing at a 3-car stop sign. (It wasn't)

It could all be simplified, again as they do in East Asia, with coloured markings on the platform floor depending on what length of train is arriving.

For example: 'The next train is to Chester. It is a 4-carriage train. Doors will open at the blue positions'.
'The next train is to Stockport. It is a 3-carriage train. Doors will open at the orange positions'.
 

styles

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Exactly. And I have had an old lady ask me if 'This is Platform 3?' pointing at a 3-car stop sign. (It wasn't)

It could all be simplified, again as they do in East Asia, with coloured markings on the platform floor depending on what length of train is arriving.

For example: 'The next train is to Chester. It is a 4-carriage train. Doors will open at the blue positions'.
'The next train is to Stockport. It is a 3-carriage train. Doors will open at the orange positions'.
Yes though I would like them to have letters for the sections as well, for accessibility reasons. It seems to work fine in Switzerland.
 

zwk500

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It could all be simplified, again as they do in East Asia, with coloured markings on the platform floor depending on what length of train is arriving.

For example: 'The next train is to Chester. It is a 4-carriage train. Doors will open at the blue positions'.
'The next train is to Stockport. It is a 3-carriage train. Doors will open at the orange positions'.
Some of the Virgin West Coast stations did get coloured zones, some of which still survive. MKC has Gold and Purple zones at least. I think there was a thread on it some years ago.

More common nowadays is numbered zones on the platform itself (big yellow circles with an arrow towards the edge), with some variation of Coach Letters alternating with zones, or summary information like 'The next train at Platform 5 is for King's Cross, first class is in zones 1-3, Standard class in zones 4-8.'
 

BeijingDave

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Some of the Virgin West Coast stations did get coloured zones, some of which still survive. MKC has Gold and Purple zones at least. I think there was a thread on it some years ago.

More common nowadays is numbered zones on the platform itself (big yellow circles with an arrow towards the edge), with some variation of Coach Letters alternating with zones, or summary information like 'The next train at Platform 5 is for King's Cross, first class is in zones 1-3, Standard class in zones 4-8.'
Without having any data or study to reference, I do feel like people are confused by all the numbers and the signs with numbers on.

You will have a platform number to find, you then hear a muffled announcement instructing you to stand in a numbered zone on that platform, you then have to find your numbered coach which won't correspond to the zone number, you then have to find your seat number...

I can deal with it, but some infrequent travellers often look confused on the major stations I go to.
 

zwk500

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Without having any data or study to reference, I do feel like people are confused by all the numbers and the signs with numbers on.
Probably. It's difficult to tell if people simply don't notice things, actively ignore it/don't trust it, or are just generally confused by it.
You will have a platform number to find, you then hear a muffled announcement instructing you to stand in a numbered zone on that platform, you then have to find your numbered coach which won't correspond to the zone number, you then have to find your seat number...
Tbf most services with seat reservations use lettered coaches, so there's at least some difference. But yes, and it gets even worse at stations with A/B subdivided platforms (not to mention stations where Platform 'somethingC' is actually a separate bay).

East Coast/VTEC/LNER did use to (May still?) have 'Wait here for coach A' signs on platforms, which feels better than having the numbered zones, but then you have the issue with all the different train lengths having different stopping points for signal sighting, despatch, or customer access reasons and it's difficult to match things up too closely. Arguably some of the solution would be to get a more standardised fleet, but we're stuck with the trains we've got for quite a while now on most routes.
 

rmHawk765

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At my local station with 6-coach trains and 6-coach platforms, the whole platform is generally used evenly at peak times, and in my experience this is true for virtually every busy station along the line. It has a single staircase each at the end of the two platforms, and the habit of standing near the staircase back when there were 3-coach trains on the line did not really stay.
 

43096

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Some of the Virgin West Coast stations did get coloured zones, some of which still survive. MKC has Gold and Purple zones at least. I think there was a thread on it some years ago.
The gold, purple etc zones were an InterCity thing, not Virgin.
More common nowadays is numbered zones on the platform itself (big yellow circles with an arrow towards the edge), with some variation of Coach Letters alternating with zones, or summary information like 'The next train at Platform 5 is for King's Cross, first class is in zones 1-3, Standard class in zones 4-8.'
There have been all sorts of ways tried, in different countries to try to get the punters to stand in the right place and it never works. Why? Because - with the exception of regular commuters who know "the system" - the punters are generally too infrequent travellers to work out what the information is telling them.

It's not just in the UK - I was in Germany earlier this week and you see the same. Splitting trains are even more confusing for them. I know that ICE944 and ICE954 are two units combined from Berlin, splitting at Hamm with a portion for Köln and a portion for Düssledorf, but there's always lots of running around at Hamm, so it is obviously too much for the normals.
 

35B

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I think they do, however 2 carriages difference really isnt a lot if it makes it that little bit safer for all at all times
Try Grantham p2 when a 5 car set is in use. The entrance is nicely placed near the rear of the train, with waiting room and canopy. LNER's policy (but not Hull Trains, who use the same trains in mixed length formations) have a standard stopping point that is at the north end of the platform. That causes people to hurry up the most exposed part of the platform, which is also very narrow and where passengers can't easily walk without crossing the yellow line, which affects the despatch corridor. I've several times seen people in that area when the next train has come through, sometimes at speed.

I FOI'd LNER, who confirmed that it is a blanket policy with no site specific safety assessment. So no consideration of the impact of this blanket policy.

This is not safety driven, but because either operators do not trust drivers to know the road and read signs, or drivers' reps have persuaded their employers that being expected to know their train and the platform is excessively difficult. Neither is a good look.
 

BeijingDave

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The gold, purple etc zones were an InterCity thing, not Virgin.

There have been all sorts of ways tried, in different countries to try to get the punters to stand in the right place and it never works. Why? Because - with the exception of regular commuters who know "the system" - the punters are generally too infrequent travellers to work out what the information is telling them.

It absolutely does work in China and Japan. I don't totally know why, probably a confluence of factors. The Japanese are very orderly I suppose. The Chinese have copied the Japanese high-speed rail system for the most part.

There are fairly (but not totally) uniform fleets.

I suppose allocated seat numbers for almost every passenger on every train helps. That and, as I mentioned previously, train drivers who seem to be able to more consistently stop on the markings (not half a carriage length away).
 
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ainsworth74

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Try Grantham p2 when a 5 car set is in use. The entrance is nicely placed near the rear of the train, with waiting room and canopy. LNER's policy (but not Hull Trains, who use the same trains in mixed length formations) have a standard stopping point that is at the north end of the platform. That causes people to hurry up the most exposed part of the platform, which is also very narrow and where passengers can't easily walk without crossing the yellow line, which affects the despatch corridor. I've several times seen people in that area when the next train has come through, sometimes at speed.
You have it in reverse at Middlesbrough. Terminating train arrives on P2 and stops at the far end beyond the canopy and with a long walk back to the platform exit. Okay, not terrible, but when it's windy/rainy not exactly pleasant and gives a real feeling of stuff the passenger. TPE meanwhile operating six-car 185s stop mid-platform leaving the train under the canopy and with the exit well located.

Northallerton has the same issue as Grantham in the southbound direction. Entrance at the rear of the platform so when LNER stop there (but not GC or TPE) with a 5-car they do so at the far southern end. Long walk, miles from the shelters and where people would normally gather.

It really is poor of LNER in my opinion that they operate like this.
 

Magrar

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Humans are social creatures. Being in a crowd is preferrable to being the oddball who has set themselves apart from the group. This applies on platforms and in carriages.

People are also pretty smart. Why bother moving in advance, unless you know for sure the place you are standing will mean you are trapped like cattle?

Most trains are not crush loaded either, and if there's really a crowd, you invariably have time to move down the platform once the train arrives and you can see with your own eyes whether your nearest door is not ideal for a comfortable journey.

In extremis, trains also have gangways now. So you're never stuck for a seat if the train does actually have empty seats at the far ends. For a long journey in a less than full train, the best seat will always be a walk away, wherever you stand.

Many people are also lazy, and many train journeys are pretty short. So why waste valuable seconds, often a minute or two, at your destination walking the full length of a platform, just so you can be that guy who likes to travel in seated solitude?

Last but not least, even experts like me, who used to be able to reliably tell even in unfamiliar stations where to stand for the frontmost and thus emptiest carriage, are now confronted with such a myriad of signage and markers, it's not worth the effort.

Most platform announcers seem to have no understanding of human behaviour, wierdly. If you cannot give people specific and clear instructions in a chaotic place like a station, you should expect to be ignored. Rightly so.

I would prefer announcers who are minded to nanny travellers, do something useful for the competent but not anal among us. Remind people with luggage or large groups, that where they are standing is unlikely to be their carriage on this very long train, so kindly ask a member of staff where they should be standing.

Or better still, stick to doing your job, and maybe ask a manager why ths staff on the platform aren't properly engaging with the most likely cause of delays when boarding. Because they're rather obvious to anyone who travels by rail regularly, and you would hope, staff.

I take the train a lot with a bike. Not once have I ever heard an announcer do anything remotely as useful as a simple thing like letting me know if the bike space is at the ends or the middle of the unit. And you surely know. Even on a two car service, it can be annoying to have to rush to the correct door, while all the other foot passengers are doing their thing.

I've got eyes and a brain. Tell me the door is at the ends or middle, so that as it approaches, I can stand back away from the disorganised rabble getting off and on, and then make my entry after they have got themselves sorted, without having delayed the train, specifically the ever impatient guard, by even a second.

Even then, I still have to contend with issues like people standing in the spot reserved for bikes. But this is the UK, we aren't smart enough it seems to make announcements of the form "please do not stand in the space reserved for bikes, because if you look behind you, that chap has a bike, and he isn't on this platform for his health, not with thsee stinking roaring belching diesel units we call trains, he actually wants to go somewhere, and in our wisdom, even on this service that hasn't been crush loaded since Victorian times, we still only provide two bike spaces per set, and you've got pretty much the entire train to recline in".
 

Taunton

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This is not safety driven, but because either operators do not trust drivers to know the road and read signs, or drivers' reps have persuaded their employers that being expected to know their train and the platform is excessively difficult. Neither is a good look.
As many know, this worked fine nationwide for a couple of generations when Modernisation Plan trains came along, and "Car 3 Stop" etc standard signs were nationwide. However was this lost? I never heard of an issue then of coaches being left off the platform.
 

Krokodil

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I never heard of an issue then of coaches being left off the platform.
Because generally no one cared if they were. In those days a handful of short platforms might have had "do not alight here" signs, but generally passengers were expected to spot the absence of a platform before getting out. The advent of power doors increased the chances that passengers might overlook the lack of a platform if the doors are released off of one because they don't have to open a window and reach out as they did with slam doors.

The railway's attitude to PTI risk has also changed. 30 years ago, if there was a mishap but no one got hurt, it wasn't a big deal. Nowadays minor mistakes like accidentally calling at a station the train wasn't booked at will result in the crew being hauled in for interrogation.
 

styles

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Because generally no one cared if they were. In those days a handful of short platforms might have had "do not alight here" signs, but generally passengers were expected to spot the absence of a platform before getting out. The advent of power doors increased the chances that passengers might overlook the lack of a platform if the doors are released off of one because they don't have to open a window and reach out as they did with slam doors.
Doesn't help that so many people have their head in their phones.
 

35B

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Because generally no one cared if they were. In those days a handful of short platforms might have had "do not alight here" signs, but generally passengers were expected to spot the absence of a platform before getting out. The advent of power doors increased the chances that passengers might overlook the lack of a platform if the doors are released off of one because they don't have to open a window and reach out as they did with slam doors.

The railway's attitude to PTI risk has also changed. 30 years ago, if there was a mishap but no one got hurt, it wasn't a big deal. Nowadays minor mistakes like accidentally calling at a station the train wasn't booked at will result in the crew being hauled in for interrogation.
Fair comment. But answering that genuine concern by deliberately inconveniencing passengers and, in some cases, introducing additional risks isn’t safety but thoughtless.
 

Haywain

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The advent of power doors increased the chances that passengers might overlook the lack of a platform if the doors are released off of one because they don't have to open a window and reach out as they did with slam doors.
I thought that was why the guard (where applicable) has to check the platform is still there before releasing the doors.
 

Krokodil

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I thought that was why the guard (where applicable) has to check the platform is still there before releasing the doors.
Yes, which is why this sort of policy is more likely to be found in places where the driver releases the doors.
 

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