BR Fares now selling itinerary-free tickets

[Paul Kelly]

As I understand it, valid route is now determined by you being able to produce an itinerary offered by a ticket vendor, rather than the old routing guide. Would the TOC accept an itinerary for a different date?

This is a really good question and I have deliberately not contributed to forum discussions on this topic since in my opinion the NRCoT changes are so messed-up and leave so many open questions. I think they are probably open to various legal challenges. But you can see the position I take on the "The Trains You May Use" page on BR Fares: https://www.brfares.com/!info?type=route - even if the NRCoT no longer defines this clearly, the TOCs have still contractually agreed in the Ticketing & Settlement Agreement that fares are valid over the permitted routes as defined by the Routeing Guide.

The current version seems (accidentally?) to be password-protected on the RDG website (edit: this link still works: https://www.raildeliverygroup.com/p...9-tsa-v10-2-main-agreement-volume-1/file.html ). I have a slightly older copy which says:

PART IV:10-5
THE ROUTES FOR WHICH A TICKET IS VALID

THE PERMITTED ROUTES

Subject to any applicable Rights and Restrictions and any routeing restrictions that apply to
the relevant Flow, a Fare is valid on any of the following routes:-

(a) if the Fare is a Zone Fare, on any route within the geographical area(s) for which the
Fare is valid; and;

(b) to the extent that the Fare entitles a Purchaser to travel otherwise than in a specified
geographical area, on:-
(i) the route taking the shortest distance that can be travelled on scheduled
passenger services between the origin and destination Stations (which, for this
purpose, includes TTL Stations); and
(ii) any other route(s) which the applicable Routeing Guide states is permitted
for the Flow to which that Fare relates.

These routes are referred to as the "Permitted Routes" for the Flow to which that Fare relates.

and there are many other references and cross-references to the permitted routes; the contractual basis still soundly exists (for now!), in my opinion.

Edit to add the definitions of capitalised terms:

"Permitted Route" means a route for which a Fare is valid, and includes the following:-

(a)if the Fare is a Zone Fare, any route within the geographical area(s) for which the Fare
is valid; and

(b)to the extent that the Fare entitles a Purchaser to travel otherwise than in a specified
geographical area:-

(i)the route taking the shortest distance that can be traveled on scheduled passenger services between the origin and destination Stations (which, for this purpose, includes TFL Stations); and

(ii)any other route(s) which the applicable Routeing Guide states is permitted for the Flow to which that Fare relates;

"Routeing Guide" means the document(s) published by the RSP from time to time, which describes
the route(s) which the Purchaser of a Fare may take between any two Stations;

 

[Starmill]

If you can't generate an itinerary on a TOC website, e.g. because details of RRBs haven't been entered, I doubt that you will be able to on National Rail either.

If the bus hasn't been loaded by the travel date I doubt you would be using the ticket at all.

 

[Belperpete]

If the bus hasn't been loaded by the travel date I doubt you would be using the ticket at all.

Why? There have been many instances where details of the replacement buses are never loaded. TfL seem particularly bad in this respect for overground services.

 

[plugwash]

There are also many cases where ticket acceptance is arranged on busses not managed by the railway, I highly doubt these are ever loaded into railway timetabling systems.

 

[Haywain]

Why? There have been many instances where details of the replacement buses are never loaded. TfL seem particularly bad in this respect for overground services.

So you're going to set off for a journey with no certainty of being able to complete it?

 

[Belperpete]

So you're going to set off for a journey with no certainty of being able to complete it?

Of course not.

 

[Starmill]

Why? There have been many instances where details of the replacement buses are never loaded. TfL seem particularly bad in this respect for overground services.

Because you wouldn't know where to catch the bus from or at what time, obviously.

Unless you're referring to the circumstances when local buses accept rail tickets? In that case, you don't need to refer to the NRCoT at all, as the bus company would be likely to be to take the line that the NRCoT doesn't apply. I might not agree with that, but either way, the idea of a permitted route definitely wouldn't apply to travel with local bus operators.

 

[James H]

I think you're all missing the point - there are times when you might want to buy a period return between station A and station B, but potentially not use the full validity of the outward journey, but engineering works mean that journey planner based retailers won't sell you (for that specific date) what would otherwise be a perfectly valid ticket for your intended use.

At least that's the sort of scenario I took Belperpete to be referring to, and I have run into in the past too

 

[Starmill]

I think you're all missing the point - there are times when you might want to buy a period return between station A and station B, but potentially not use the full validity of the outward journey, but engineering works mean that journey planner based retailers won't sell you (for that specific date) what would otherwise be a perfectly valid ticket for your intended use.

At least that's the sort of scenario I took Belperpete to be referring to, and I have run into in the past too

Without specifics nobody can comment, but it's up to the person making the journey to satisfy themselves that the ticket is "valid for your intended use" as you succinctly put it, based on your own reading of the Conditions. I can't envisage this being a genuine problem personally for travel by a replacement bus or on a local bus service which is accepting railway tickets, though if a specific example were offered then of course that may be different in different circumstances.

There are also many cases where ticket acceptance is arranged on busses not managed by the railway, I highly doubt these are ever loaded into railway timetabling systems.

This is an easy thing to do, it was done for route 192, 11 and others from Stockport recently. But in circumstances where it's not done, the permitted routes wouldn't really come into it.

 

[Belperpete]

Because you wouldn't know where to catch the bus from or at what time, obviously.

The details may well have been published, e.g. on the TOC's disruption page, but that does not necessarily mean they have been loaded into the journey planning database. Or in the case of TfL, they just tell you to use alternative bus or underground services. In either case, I know I will get to my destination, but I will not be able to get an itinerary.

So, to take an example, travelling from up north to stations on the West London Line, there are various routes to get to London and onto my destination. I can for example travel via Reading and/or Clapham Junction. If the West London Line is running, then I can produce an itinerary via those places. However, if it is closed, then I am still entitled to travel to my destination, and my local station will sell me a ticket. And now I can buy a ticket on line thanks to BRfares. However, without an itinerary, how do I prove to someone at Reading or Clapham that I am on a valid route?

 

[Starmill]

The details may well have been published, e.g. on the TOC's disruption page, but that does not necessarily mean they have been loaded into the journey planning database. Or in the case of TfL, they just tell you to use alternative bus or underground services. In either case, I know I will get to my destination, but I will not be able to get an itinerary.

So, to take an example, travelling from up north to stations on the West London Line, there are various routes to get to London and onto my destination. I can for example travel via Reading and/or Clapham Junction. If the West London Line is running, then I can produce an itinerary via those places. However, if it is closed, then I am still entitled to travel to my destination, and my local station will sell me a ticket. And now I can buy a ticket on line thanks to BRfares. However, without an itinerary, how do I prove to someone at Reading or Clapham that I am on a valid route?

In that circumstance, if the London Overground or Southern website mentioned a TfL bus route accepting tickets, then I'd say they're valid for the mentioned bus routes and railway interchanges regardless of what the permitted routes are or aren't.

 

[Belperpete]

In that circumstance, if the London Overground or Southern website mentioned a TfL bus route accepting tickets, then I'd say they're valid for the mentioned bus routes and railway interchanges regardless of what the permitted routes are or aren't.

Yes, but it's not you that I would have to convince that I am on a valid route. The problem is not whether my ticket is accepted on the bus (that may be another problem), but how do I prove that my rail journey up to that point has been valid? If I have a ticket from say Birmingham to Shepherds Bush, I could well imagine an RPI at say Clapham Junction or Reading thinking that I was well off piste. If I was reported for a travel irregularity, I would not be able to produce an itinerary to prove that I was allowed to travel via those stations on that day. Hence my question about whether they would accept an itinerary for a previous journey.

However, thinking about it, just because your ticket is valid via a particular route one day, does not mean that it is valid the next day. It may, for example, have been valid due to an easement that is no longer in force.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Aug 2026 ==

Without specifics nobody can comment, but it's up to the person making the journey to satisfy themselves that the ticket is "valid for your intended use" as you succinctly put it, based on your own reading of the Conditions.

Again, it is not the person making the journey, but the RPI or revenue protection officer who doesn't believe that you are on a valid route that is the issue. If you can't produce an itinerary, how do you prove that you were travelling via a valid route?

 

[Starmill]

Yes, but it's not you that I would have to convince that I am on a valid route.

Correct. Only you can decide what you want to do. All I'm saying is there's no additional risk from using BR Fares.

The problem is not whether my ticket is accepted on the bus (that may be another problem), but how do I prove that my rail journey up to that point has been valid? If I have a ticket from say Birmingham to Shepherds Bush, I could well imagine an RPI at say Clapham Junction or Reading thinking that I was well off piste.

I wouldn't say that at all. If the website suggested that Clapham Junction was where you need to change with the bus then I'd say any permitted route from Birmingham to Clapham Junction would be perfectly permitted with such a ticket by default. This is how all online journey planners work, they strip off the non-rail legs from the start and end of the journey when calculating the permitted routes.

If I was reported for a travel irregularity, I would not be able to produce an itinerary to prove that I was allowed to travel via those stations on that day.

No. But if you were using a TfL bus from Clapham Junction station then you'd have to rely on that published instruction over-riding whatever the usual Conditions say. This happens regularly during engineering works, for example tickets from some stations in Wales to Bristol Parkway are often not valid via Chepstow, but the GWR website usually advises travellers to go that way during engineering work on the Severn Tunnel. They usually don't bother to update the website, they just assume people will see the website and posters. I'd be comfortable with that argument as it'd be no different whatsoever from buying the ticket from the booking office. If you're not comfortable with that then unfortunately no remedy is likely to be available for you other than finding a different mode of transport. Of course you could email in advance for specific permission or speak with a member of staff on the day and covertly record the interaction if you wanted to, although personally I wouldn't bother and would just consult the website and travel. Either way, I don't think buying the ticket from BR Fares instead of a ticket machine or ticket office would alter a thing.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Aug 2026 ==

Again, it is not the person making the journey, but the RPI or revenue protection officer who doesn't believe that you are on a valid route that is the issue. If you can't produce an itinerary, how do you prove that you were travelling via a valid route?

Again if you're not comfortable relying on the information on the website to override the usual policy then I'd say you have no remedy otherwise than not to buy that ticket and not to make that journey.

 

[Belperpete]

I wouldn't say that at all. If the website suggested that Clapham Junction was where you need to change with the bus then I'd say any permitted route from Birmingham to Clapham Junction would be perfectly permitted with such a ticket by default.
Again if you're not comfortable relying on the information on the website to override the usual policy then I'd say you have no remedy otherwise than not to buy that ticket and not to make that journey.

What website are you talking about? The BRfares website doesn't give an itinerary (that is the whole point of this discussion), so won't be suggesting that I go via Clapham Junction or anywhere else.

As to suggestions that people shouldn't make a journey of several hundred miles just because TfL or whoever haven't put up details of the RRB for the last couple of miles, that is just ridiculous.

As you seem to be fixated on buses for some reason, can I restate what the potential issue is. Under the current NRCoT, proof that you are travelling on a valid route is by producing an itinerary from a ticket vendor. If for whatever reason (RRBs being but one possible reason) journey planners won't produce an itinerary, then most TOC websites won't let you buy a ticket, but you can buy an itinerary-less ticket from BRfares. However, that does mean, if you are challenged at any point on your journey, you will have no way of proving that your ticket is valid for travel via that route.

This is probably not going to be a problem in most cases, where it is fairly obvious that you are on a valid route. But it could be for someone using one of the more esoteric and rarely used valid routes.

As another example, take the case of this forum's ticket site now selling the standard "any permitted route" tickets from Cambrian line stations to London, but with an itinerary via the North Wales Coast, raised in a separate thread. You can buy the same ticket on BRfares, but I would be very cautious about getting on a train at Bangor with a Porthmadog to London ticket without an itinerary to justify it.

 

[Starmill]

What website are you talking about? The BRfares website doesn't give an itinerary (that is the whole point of this discussion), so won't be suggesting that I go via Clapham Junction or anywhere else.

Whichever website you used to find out the information. I don't know where that is as you've not stated so explicitly.

As to suggestions that people shouldn't make a journey of several hundred miles just because TfL or whoever haven't put up details of the RRB for the last couple of miles, that is just ridiculous.

Why might that be the case? I don't see any reason not to myself.

As you seem to be fixated on buses for some reason, can I restate what the potential issue is.

You keep mentioning replacement buses so again I can't help you.

If for whatever reason (RRBs being but one possible reason) journey planners won't produce an itinerary, then most TOC websites won't let you buy a ticket, but you can buy an itinerary-less ticket from BRfares. However, that does mean, if you are challenged at any point on your journey, you will have no way of proving that your ticket is valid for travel via that route.

As per my previous suggestion.

This is probably not going to be a problem in most cases, where it is fairly obvious that you are on a valid route. But it could be for someone using one of the more esoteric and rarely used valid routes.

Someone travelling on an esoteric permitted route is unlikely to be buying a ticket in the way you describe unless they're an expert user.

As another example, take the case of this forum's ticket site now selling the standard "any permitted route" tickets from Cambrian line stations to London, but with an itinerary via the North Wales Coast, raised in a separate thread. You can buy the same ticket on BRfares, but I would be very cautious about getting on a train at Bangor with a Porthmadog to London ticket without an itinerary to justify it.

That's your own perogative. Nobody is suggesting that you should be doing this. I can only repeat myself:

Only you can decide what you want to do. All I'm saying is there's no additional risk from using BR Fares.

 

[blimmo]

If journey planners won't give me any routes at all I'll just default back to the routeing guide. The NRCoT claiming it to be noncontractual is very silly anyway.

 

[trainJam]

No although it would not be complicated to allow it, although I can't promise I would have time! What's the use case you need it for?

I've found a manual way to do it anyways which works. The use case is the SVR trial:

Purchase flexible walk-up fares for any British train journey

Purchase flexible single/return tickets & Travelcards – in 3 clicks. Full details of all British rail fares shown, with built-in Season Ticket Calculator.

www.brfares.com