Unpopular opinion: IETs are perfectly fine, for the most part.

[OneTrackMinded]

This is probably going to provoke a lot of people on this forum, but I don’t have many problems with IETs, and I actually think they’re quite nice.

For context, I’m not really a hardcore enthusiast, I do like the railway but I’m not into the intricacies. I’m mostly interested in the technological side and passenger experience.

I’ve experienced many different eras of traction over the years. HSTs, voyagers, meridians, 180s, etc. When IETs were introduced to the various routes these trains operate on, I saw it as a significantly positive step change.

The IETs are smooth, quiet and very swift. This is reflected in the design of the train, very aerodynamic and futuristic. The interior is, even though it lacks some additional amenities, modern and noise insulated. They feel like stepping into the future, even the sound they make sounds a bit like a UFO. It’s an effortless experience, especially with the fast and smooth acceleration. Even on diesel mode, the engines are clearly designed significantly better as they don’t seem to pollute nearly as much and certainly don’t create excess vibration.

The older units were often dirty, had significant vibration from the diesel engines (excluding the HST because it’s a locomotive), and in general were quite tatty looking, inside and out. Acceleration was also often slow and jerky.

It’s true that the IET seats aren’t perfect, especially on earlier examples, but I think this is somewhat over exaggerated. I’ve travelled on these units many times for multiple hours, and typically I just forget the seat even exists. Yes, they should be better, but I don’t think it’s a dealbreaker.. they’re not benches like some enthusiasts make them out to be. In terms of the earlier models, GWR will also be soon replacing the current standard seat model with an improved version for those who share a different opinion.

Just for some balance, there are things I think should be better. They should incorporate batteries to reduce the reliance on diesel, which is something I think is coming with the 820s (?). First class should be more premium (it looks quite good on the 810s though). There should be USB-C ports. Older models should have their dot matrix screens replaced with an LCD display like on
newer models. Lighting should be toned down a bit at night, using the ambient light sensor.

Overall, I think the hate for these units is very much over-exaggerated. They’re not incredibly flashy, but their seamlessness allows them to blend into the background, which is, really, what you want travelling to be. Not exciting for enthusiasts sure, but it’s the aim for the normal passenger.

 

[superalbs]

Smooth and quiet is a bit of a generous description of a train that turns any track into a rollercoaster. And while the seats aren't benches, you do very often end up literally sitting on a metal ridge.

Dirtiness and tattiness can be fixed by simply cleaning the trains, it is not an attribute exclusive to older trains. Indeed, many of the 800s are looking absolutely vile both inside and out.

 

[EuxtonNeutral]

This is probably going to provoke a lot of people on this forum, but I don’t have many problems with IETs, and I actually think they’re quite nice.

For context, I’m not really a hardcore enthusiast, I do like the railway but I’m not into the intricacies. I’m mostly interested in the technological side and passenger experience.

I’ve experienced many different eras of traction over the years. HSTs, voyagers, meridians, 180s, etc. When IETs were introduced to the various routes these trains operate on, I saw it as a significantly positive step change.

The IETs are smooth, quiet and very swift. This is reflected in the design of the train, very aerodynamic and futuristic. The interior is, even though it lacks some additional amenities, modern and noise insulated. They feel like stepping into the future, even the sound they make sounds a bit like a UFO. It’s an effortless experience, especially with the fast and smooth acceleration. Even on diesel mode, the engines are clearly designed significantly better as they don’t seem to pollute nearly as much and certainly don’t create excess vibration.

The older units were often dirty, had significant vibration from the diesel engines (excluding the HST because it’s a locomotive), and in general were quite tatty looking, inside and out. Acceleration was also often slow and jerky.

It’s true that the IET seats aren’t perfect, especially on earlier examples, but I think this is somewhat over exaggerated. I’ve travelled on these units many times for multiple hours, and typically I just forget the seat even exists. Yes, they should be better, but I don’t think it’s a dealbreaker.. they’re not benches like some enthusiasts make them out to be. In terms of the earlier models, GWR will also be soon replacing the current standard seat model with an improved version for those who share a different opinion.

Just for some balance, there are things I think should be better. They should incorporate batteries to reduce the reliance on diesel, which is something I think is coming with the 820s (?). First class should be more premium (it looks quite good on the 810s though). There should be USB-C ports. Older models should have their dot matrix screens replaced with an LCD display like on
newer models. Lighting should be toned down a bit at night, using the ambient light sensor.

Overall, I think the hate for these units is very much over-exaggerated. They’re not incredibly flashy, but their seamlessness allows them to blend into the background, which is, really, what you want travelling to be. Not exciting for enthusiasts sure, but it’s the aim for the normal passenger.

Interesting. They certainly have good points: impressive acceleration and nice open-feeling cabin with good window height etc. But from personal experience the ride is god awful and the seats (except the avanti 805s and 807s) like sitting on a car battery…

 

[mmh]

I've only used 805s so perhaps I'm lucky, but based on thise I don't really understand the massive dislike of the Hitachi trains sometimes expressed on here.

The 805 has a good seating layout, proper vestibules and the only criticisms I have that spring to mind are pretty picky - the manual door toilets are very small (but then they are on pretty much every modern train), and the windows feel rather high up in conjunction with a low feeling floor (but the Mk3 carriage also had this to a slightly esser extent)

 

[AlterEgo]

How's the "normal passenger" faring on EMR with their 810 rollout?

 

[saismee]

I've only used 805s so perhaps I'm lucky, but based on thise I don't really understand the massive dislike of the Hitachi trains sometimes expressed on here.

The 805 has a good seating layout, proper vestibules and the only criticisms I have that spring to mind are pretty picky - the manual door toilets are very small (but then they are on pretty much every modern train), and the windows feel rather high up in conjunction with a low feeling floor (but the Mk3 carriage also had this to a slightly esser extent)

Likewise. I really enjoyed the ride I took from Stafford to Euston on the 805s. I think the seats on those are very good, and especially the sockets and wireless chargers are handy.

 

[Magrar]

Frankly if all you have to worry about on a mainline UK train is the quality of the seat, you are already winning in life.

Leg room matters more from a comfort perspective, surely, that being one way to mitigate a hard seat too.

But I'd rather be cramped and with an uncomfortable behind on a train that's on time and has no issues with overcrowding or this or that service that makes a train more attractive than a car not being available, than have lots of room to stretch out and ponder just where the UK railway got things so badly wrong.

 

[Class15]

How's the "normal passenger" faring on EMR with their 810 rollout?

Couldn’t agree more. I’m sure the “normal passenger” would rather the 222s running a normal timetable…

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Aug 2026 ==

I've only used 805s so perhaps I'm lucky, but based on thise I don't really understand the massive dislike of the Hitachi trains sometimes expressed on here.

The 805 has a good seating layout, proper vestibules and the only criticisms I have that spring to mind are pretty picky - the manual door toilets are very small (but then they are on pretty much every modern train), and the windows feel rather high up in conjunction with a low feeling floor (but the Mk3 carriage also had this to a slightly esser extent)

805s and 807s are a huge, huge step-up from the GWR and LNER units.

 

[Zomboid]

I've only used them on the London to Newcastle and London to Oxford/ Cardiff routes, and aside from the seats not being very soft I don't have any complaints about them. Maybe the "rollercoaster" happens on other sections of route.

 

[Bald Rick]

Agreed. No issues. Used extensively in both clases, mostly LNER and Avanti, but also TPE, GWR and EMR. My only problem with them is 26metre coaches (EMR excepted) and the dwell time issues that causes on busy services.

 

[NCT]

Most complaints towards the IETs and derivatives are towards the interior specifications (not the fault of the train itself) and the procurement model (again not really the fault of the train itself).

The 805s and 807s have an excellent interior layout and seats. That said, even ignoring the very specific Class 810 issues, problems with multiple-working with the 805s do point to something related to the train itself.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How's the "normal passenger" faring on EMR with their 810 rollout?

Custom designs haven't tended to go well in some way or another. 777s have been a bit of a mess too. Many of us think EMR would have been better off with a fleet of 7 and 9 car standard 26m units.

26m 80x seem to be doing fine from a passenger perspective. Bar the seat issue (fixed by the 805/807) I like them.

That said, their older brothers, the Javelin units, are that little bit nicer.

 

[NCT]

Custom designs haven't tended to go well in some way or another. 777s have been a bit of a mess too. Many of us think EMR would have been better off with a fleet of 7 and 9 car standard 26m units.

For the umpteenth time, at the time of procurement, 26m was far from the standard inter-city vehicle length, and the IET was yet to become the standard UK intercity rolling stock platform.

 

[Sorcerer]

For the most part, they are operationally sufficient. Having both bi-mode and electric options with 26m coaches is good for a standardised InterCity fleet (much to the ire of some enthusiasts). The seating and lighting leave much to be desired though. The TPE 802s are clinically bright and the seats not the most comfortable - and I much prefer the 397 - but the Avanti 807s are actually pretty decent in my experience. But on the whole I still consider the Pendolino the best express passenger train on the network alongside the LNER 225s.

 

[NCT]

Purely in terms of passenger saloon comfort, I'd take a 805/807 over a 390 any day. Larger windows and far better seat to window alignment in a 805/807 than in a 390.

As for the 810 saga, far from making the case of a 'single government issue rolling stock type', it shows the danger of single supplier dependency.

 

[EYFanatic]

I, personally, find the IETs quite acceptable for my travels... I use the 802 versions the most and they are very comfortable indeed even after an operation to my lower back that, on a HST, would have been murder

 

[Galactic142]

I agree on these comments - I've no problem with IETs. Most of my experiences have been on the ones on LNER and the standard class feels bright, airy and with big windows. To be fair, I'm used to pendolinos which are notably more claustrophobic than nearly every other train. In fact I've never liked 390s as half the time you don't get a window in a window seat, the tilting can make me feel ill, and they certainly used to smell bad in the vestibules (not noticed that so much recently). By comparison I find the 800s/801s very pleasant and often choose to travel via the ECML if I can. Okay the ride quality is worse than a 390, but not so much that it ever feels rough to me - and no worse than a 195/397.

 

[NCT]

Even the IET seats (those that aren't collapsed) I find in some respects more agreeable to me than some of DB's First Class seats. People romanticise over deep, plush arm chairs but they forget that
- Big seat cushions are awful for those of us with shorter thighs means our lower backs get no support
- An upright, not slouching posture (provided it's supported by the right seatback shape) is far better for musculoskeletal health.

 

[yorksrob]

I must admit, I don't mind em. Seats are a bit hard for very long journeys but it's not a huge issue for me.

 

[brad465]

Ignoring some short-forms, IETs have provided a capacity uplift across many GWR services. All 9 and 10-car sets ones have more seats than 2+8 HSTs. 5-car short-forms are a problem, though on Oxford services they are an uplift from the 3-car 165/166 that was not uncommon, plus have a higher capacity than the 180s did by around 40 seats.

Some of their problems are also not down to the units, but Chris Grayling's bionic duckweed act on the GWR electrification programme increasing diesel running.

 

[irish_rail]

Ignoring some short-forms, IETs have provided a capacity uplift across many GWR services. All 9 and 10-car sets ones have more seats than 2+8 HSTs. 5-car short-forms are a problem, though on Oxford services they are an uplift from the 3-car 165/166 that was not uncommon, plus have a higher capacity than the 180s did by around 40 seats.

Some of their problems are also not down to the units, but Chris Grayling's bionic duckweed act on the GWR electrification programme increasing diesel running.

I'd agree that far too many 5 car sets being foisted on the Western is one of the biggest issues (that and the GWR standard class seats!).
But overall I think they are decent trains, just need to get the engine reliability up a bit.

 

[Tetragon213]

The seat quality is a big one for me. If I'm paying good money to spend several hours in that seat, I expect it to not feel like a church pew. Heck, I go out of my way to avoid specific airlines, due to poor seat quality.

The lighting is also excessively harsh; the 2 combined make sleeping on board very difficult.

That said, the underlying "bones" of the IETs, minus the ride quality, is actually not that bad. If a better suspension system and interior was fitted, we wouldn't have half as many complaints. Avanti and Lumo's offerings show what can be down on an IET platform.

I still think, however, that we should be getting more Stadler FLIRTs instead of IETs.

 

[HSTEd]

For the umpteenth time, at the time of procurement, 26m was far from the standard inter-city vehicle length, and the IET was yet to become the standard UK intercity rolling stock platform.

My understanding was that the Class 810 units were not ordered until shortly before coronavirus.

By then the Class 800 series units were probably the de-facto standard new intercity rolling stock platform because they represented the vast majority of orders for such stock in the previous decade (Class 800/1 having its original orders placed in 2012).

By the same token, 26m had become the de-facto standard for new intercity rolling stock.

The only none 26m/non-IET order of such stock I can think of in the previous several years had been the Class 397, which represented only 60 vehicles.
After that order, the next order for non IET intercity stock I can think of is the 897s (again only 100 vehicles), which was only placed in 2023.

 

[RT4038]

Most complaints towards the IETs and derivatives are towards the interior specifications (not the fault of the train itself) and the procurement model (again not really the fault of the train itself).

The 805s and 807s have an excellent interior layout and seats. That said, even ignoring the very specific Class 810 issues, problems with multiple-working with the 805s do point to something related to the train itself.

Maybe I am just not a typical passenger, but I've never ever ridden a train , in the UK or abroad, thinking and complaining about the procurement model used. How bizarre! (I never liked riding behind a class 50 because they were leased.......???). As for the trains themselves - they are modern and perfectly adequate for the journeys i've made on them (GWR, AWC and LNER). From an enthusiast's point of view (and why do they matter?) they lack the miserable eccenticities of stock built 75 years ago.....

 

[rmHawk765]

IETs don't scream quality to me, but I don't know, maybe that's just me being an enthusiast.

Their ride quality leaves something to be desired but as for the seats, I'm one of the odd few out who doesn't really care (and neither do I care about the ironing boards on the 717s and 700s which I use a lot more frequently). Though I still think any competent DfT or government should launch an interior upgrade programme, as my opinion isn't everyone's of course. By far the biggest issue is the lighting - surely this is just a software update away from making much better? And I'm sure that even now the lights can be dimmed by staff?

I must say it does surprise me the units are not fitted with LCD information displays unlike pretty much all other modern stock (or at least our LNER units, not sure about the others). This allows much clearer display of information (important for accessibility) and also ties into my idea of providing a nationwide connected system for disruption information and how it impacts journeys and interchanges. It's not something that even requires nationalisation per se and the provision of LCDs on modern trains makes this a lot easier. Ultimately it is frustrating the DfT cut corners literally everywhere they could in terms of the interior.

And again, these are rather unique units as 'high-speed' intercity trains go. The fact that our government refuses to see the potential of nationwide electrification means we have to compromise somewhere to maintain flexibility, and I wouldn't be surprised if the design of bi-modes forces a compromise in ride quality. After all there's nothing in mainland Europe to compare the IETs to so we can't just say 'Hitachi bad' and move on. Then again isn't this why Stadler opted for a 'power pack' in the middle for its bi-mode and diesel units (apart from the obvious issue of having no space with a low floor)?

 

[gg1]

Aside from the unpleasant seats they're fine. I've only used them a few times for relatively short journeys (Reading to Paddington), for that length of journey the seats are acceptable but spending 4 hours sat in one is an experience I hope to avoid.

 

[befated]

Despite all the infamy GWR’s IET seats don’t bother me at all. I was surprised to have a far worse experience on one of their 387s (where the seat was very much ironing board style) as nobody complains about them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Despite all the infamy GWR’s IET seats don’t bother me at all. I was surprised to have a far worse experience on one of their 387s (where the seat was very much ironing board style) as nobody complains about them.

I'm guessing you're quite light? I personally would take a 387 over an IET on GWR purely because of the metal bar issue (and I have no issue with hard seats, I find the ironing board quite comfortable to be honest), but someone who is quite light might not squash the cushion down enough to feel it.

 

[6Gman]

I've only used 805s so perhaps I'm lucky, but based on thise I don't really understand the massive dislike of the Hitachi trains sometimes expressed on here.

The 805 has a good seating layout, proper vestibules and the only criticisms I have that spring to mind are pretty picky - the manual door toilets are very small (but then they are on pretty much every modern train), and the windows feel rather high up in conjunction with a low feeling floor (but the Mk3 carriage also had this to a slightly esser extent)

I've used 805s and 807s.

The 805s are good but the 807s are excellent!

Forum rules probably forbid using the traditional expression, but excrement off a spade comes to mind.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The 805 has a good seating layout, proper vestibules and the only criticisms I have that spring to mind are pretty picky - the manual door toilets are very small (but then they are on pretty much every modern train), and the windows feel rather high up in conjunction with a low feeling floor (but the Mk3 carriage also had this to a slightly esser extent)

I find the small toilet doors on 80x better than most others. The handles are robust (if a little difficult to use at times) and the sliding door is better than a hinged one if you're trying to get in there with luggage.